Article

2004-07-03 China-Japan-Koreas

Taiwan Wants U.S. to Hurry Arms Delivery

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Posted by Steve White 2004-07-03 12:27:24 AM|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "eight diesel-electric submarines."

Since when did we start making diesel electric subs again?

You'd think we'd go with the electical drive and the fuel cell for the source like the Germans.

Or are they buying the subs from the Germans?

Posted by OldSpook 2004-07-03 12:52:05 AM|| 2004-07-03 12:52:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Sell them some of our Los Angeles attack subs that we are decommissioning. They need not cost $1.5 billion a piece.

Posted by ed 2004-07-03 12:59:54 AM|| 2004-07-03 12:59:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Not a bad idea, Ed, but that would require us to have a whole bunch of "civilian advisors" in Taiwan for a long time to help them operate and maintain them. Sure wouldn't want the PRC to get the wrong idea or nuttin' ...

Posted by Steve White 2004-07-03 1:04:18 AM|| 2004-07-03 1:04:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 The subs are Russian. We're gonna buy them, then resell them to Taiwan. It was going to be German subs, but they balked at the deal. Pooty-Poot doesn't seem to be as sensitive to Chinese displeasure.

Posted by CRS 2004-07-03 8:26:31 AM|| 2004-07-03 8:26:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Taiwan Wants U.S. to Hurry Arms Delivery
Jeebus they're demanding, next thing you know they'll want joint naval exercises with 7 carrier groups.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-07-03 8:36:29 AM|| 2004-07-03 8:36:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Didn't hear about the Russian deal? Yikes... Kilos?

I always figured that buying nearly new Upholders from the Brits would be the way to go.

Posted by Shipman 2004-07-03 11:23:02 AM|| 2004-07-03 11:23:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Russian, eh? That means probably the Kilo class subs These have to be the 877 "Export" Kilos like the Chinese and Iranians are buying... or are they some older Russian 636's?

Put US electronics in them and use US passive sonar. As for the weaponry, they should, if possible, rework these boats and set them up them for Mk48 ADCAP torpedoes and tube launched Harpoon ASM. IIRC the Russians use 21 inch/533 mm tubes, all they may need to do is rework the triggering, storage and loading rails.

Do all that and you'd have a pretty good little D-E boat for littoral and coastal shelf use, one that would give even US SSN boats a tough time (in a defensive role).

Certainly more than enough to litter the bottom of the Straits of Taiwan with Communist Chinese transport and combat ships.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-07-03 11:41:39 AM|| 2004-07-03 11:41:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 But most importantly, will they get good old-fashioned periscopes? The Virginia class is doing away with the optical scopes. Nothing but cameras and TV. I wonder what's on channel 4? Holy smokes, it's a destroyer.

Passive sonar is great if you have acoustic advantage (A boat on battery/fuel cell does. Nukes? Dunno.) and until the first shot is fired. Then your cover is blown and you better be good at melees with active sonar and fast/automated reloads fired from stand-off distance (Does torpedo stand-off ability even exist? It did not in my day. Perhaps passive approaches with the abilty to call in air assets for the kill is the key. Taiwanese airstrips are nearby.) Also The Taiwain Straits are fairly narrow (80 miles) and shallow (about 220 feet). Sonar performance is odd in shallow water. In addition to direct path sound propogation, you get "surface ducts" which can give long distance contacts. You can end up with so many contacts, you can't figure out what to shoot. Training is the key. There are so many variables, the amateurs/unlucky will quickly die.

The problem with air dependent propulsion is you have to make noise with diesels. Anybody have any data on the range of the new German fuel cell boats? If they can make it a week between refuels and pour on speed when needed, they are dangerous in their home waters.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-07-03 3:12:24 PM|| 2004-07-03 3:12:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 More info on who will provide the boats for Taiwan.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-07-03 6:15:38 PM|| 2004-07-03 6:15:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I smell ulterior motive here.

Starting up conventional electric boat production at a facility in the US?

Sounds like we want to test our quieting technology (Seawolf) with electric drive (the new darling of the Navy) and the newer capacity batteries and "silent" fuel cell technology that has come along only in the past 2-3 years.

Smaller, less manning, easier to maintain, essentially the same weaponry as a 688 ...

Sounds like what the Navy wants as part of its littoral navy, along with the coastal warfare ships. That way they can keep the nucs in the long patrol out in the deep blue where they operate best (and are at less risk), and put the cheaper boats in the grey water only as needed.

Having Taiwan pay for the first few is a great way for our guys to perfect what we need to produce some for our own.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-07-03 8:17:10 PM|| 2004-07-03 8:17:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 The Navy's Nuke Mafia will never go for it unless they get substantial control.

Posted by Pappy 2004-07-03 11:37:40 PM|| 2004-07-03 11:37:40 PM|| Front Page Top

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