Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Tue 10/03/2017 View Mon 10/02/2017 View Sun 10/01/2017 View Sat 09/30/2017 View Fri 09/29/2017 View Thu 09/28/2017 View Wed 09/27/2017
1
2017-10-03 Home Front: WoT
Did The Vegas Shooter Use A Fully Automatic Weapon?
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Fred 2017-10-03 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11130 views ]  Top

#1 It's Vegas!
Millionaires can buy anything.
A LV shop rents autos to tourists.

Sounded like an AK firing rate to me. There are some dependable 50 round drums available. Need more data.

M16 bolts and trigger groups are available to retrofit AR15s.
Posted by Skidmark 2017-10-03 00:47||   2017-10-03 00:47|| Front Page Top

#2 I wouldn't bother though.
There's quite a bit of traffic from both LA and Mexico.
No reason for a $M guy to build or buy junk for his bucket list.
Posted by Skidmark 2017-10-03 00:53||   2017-10-03 00:53|| Front Page Top

#3 Heck, maybe it came from Fast and Furious for all we know.

Given the 600s or so the shooter had to operate, and some 600 casualties, it had to be an automatic of some kind, assuming one in 10 rounds found a target.
Posted by gorb 2017-10-03 01:05||   2017-10-03 01:05|| Front Page Top

#4 Badanov, Rantburg's weapons expert would know.
Posted by Hupeting Sforza8196 2017-10-03 01:45||   2017-10-03 01:45|| Front Page Top

#5 Latest reporting indicates some sort of rapid fire or so-called 'bump fire' attachment mechanism.
Posted by Besoeker 2017-10-03 01:48||   2017-10-03 01:48|| Front Page Top

#6 Independent 'Bump Stock' article.
Posted by Besoeker 2017-10-03 02:01||   2017-10-03 02:01|| Front Page Top

#7 
Posted by Skidmark 2017-10-03 02:35||   2017-10-03 02:35|| Front Page Top

#8 This shooting happened at night. By the looks of the bump fire video, it seems it should have been very obvious where the shooter was located. Yet I read somewhere it took the police over an hour to enter his hotel room. Am I missing something? Supposedly he was shooting for about ten or maybe 15 minutes. Something doesn't add up.
Posted by gorb 2017-10-03 04:09||   2017-10-03 04:09|| Front Page Top

#9 Bump fire will empty a 30 round mag in about 2 seconds.
If you use steel ammo it will quickly jam due to melting schellac off the steel.
I looked into purchasing a full auto years ago, expensive and lengthily, not difficult. I think you could pick up a full auto Uzi for under $15K.
Posted by  jvalentour 2017-10-03 06:31||   2017-10-03 06:31|| Front Page Top

#10 Badanov, Rantburg's weapons expert would know.

Weapons economics, not weapons. Skidmark is one of several weapons experts at Rantburg.
Posted by badanov 2017-10-03 07:09|| http://www.chriscovert.net  2017-10-03 07:09|| Front Page Top

#11 Massive gambling debts yet he had a small arsenal of potentially expensive weapons.

I wouldn't be surprised if ISIS isn't telling the truth and they supplied him with weaponry or something. Hopefully they'll find a note to put things together.
Posted by rjschwarz 2017-10-03 08:37||   2017-10-03 08:37|| Front Page Top

#12 From Hot Air. "Two officials familiar with the investigation say authorities found at least 17 guns in the hotel room of the Las Vegas shooter.
Stephen Paddock also had two devices that are attached to the stocks of semiautomatic guns to allow fully automatic gunfire. The bump-stock devices have attracted scrutiny in recent years from authorities."
Posted by Deacon Blues 2017-10-03 08:58||   2017-10-03 08:58|| Front Page Top

#13 Gorb, The dude was likely using cellular trail cameras or similar devices in the hallways and stairwells to alert him when the police approached...and allow him to direct his fire through the walls..to disrupt their assault. This is an advanced drug dealer tactic we have encountered for years...nothing new. He was a hunter and probably used cellular trail cams in the past. When someone can see you and directs aimed rifle fire in your direction it slows you down and eliminates the direct approach...until you eliminate his cameras and get a base of fire or HE set to suppress his fire...which is what I assume they did.
Posted by Tennessee 2017-10-03 09:13||   2017-10-03 09:13|| Front Page Top

#14 Oh Skidmark is just a talker, BadEnough.
He's days of the great game are passed.
There are some real players here though.
Posted by Skidmark 2017-10-03 10:57||   2017-10-03 10:57|| Front Page Top

#15 If you got him trapped, and he had ceased fire to counter the siege, might as well take your time, do it as safe as possible. Could be traps galore.

I have not come across the splits between shooter damage and stampede damage. I am sure a stat (wo)man is on that and info not released.
Posted by swksvolFF 2017-10-03 11:08||   2017-10-03 11:08|| Front Page Top

#16 "Yet I read somewhere it took the police over an hour to enter his hotel room. Am I missing something? Supposedly he was shooting for about ten or maybe 15 minutes. Something doesn't add up."
I think the after action report on this will consider this a reasonable time line from outbreak to conclusion. If you figure it took 20 minutes to get the swat assembled, geared up and develop and communicate the action plan. If the trip up to 32 was with elevator or by stairwell, or some combination. If the plan involved both the knowns and the unknowns. How the shooter spent his time should be discernible after action. (disclaimer- I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, but not recently.)
Posted by Capsu78 2017-10-03 11:35||   2017-10-03 11:35|| Front Page Top

#17 The last time I wired a Simplex alarm system there was a sample call-out protocol template provided by the vendor. Maybe you've seen something like this, KS.

-(particulate/smoke/heat/infrared camera) sensor fires
-regional(area, room, hall, floor, wing, facility...) concentrator validates signal
-concentrator verifies adjacent signals
-concentrator checks alarm threshold
-concentrator sends alarm
-control center verifies alarm
-control center checks 'notify' threshold...

And it goes on and on until some human gets a message to send building security to verify. Local First Responders are likely to get notice of 'an event warning' but directed not to activate until a human verified 'incident' is reported.

I think the days of automatic sprinklers are over.
Posted by Skidmark 2017-10-03 11:52||   2017-10-03 11:52|| Front Page Top

#18 The building guard found by police shot in the leg outside the room was possibly sent to see if there was a smoker in the room.
Posted by Skidmark 2017-10-03 11:57||   2017-10-03 11:57|| Front Page Top

#19 The two windows fairly far apart in the suite makes me wonder about a second (or more) room occupant. Since the suite was at the end of the hall, there would be a stairway. Up one or two flights after leaving weapons in the suite, pop into an unrelated room and you are another guest to be evacuated. Paddock doesn't even know he is left behind until first hotel security arrives, gets shot by Paddock and it played out.
The number of weapons and forensics will tell the tail. The depth of planning and the June Vegas warning by ISIS plus the missing girlfriend.... too many threads?
Posted by NoMoreBS 2017-10-03 12:27||   2017-10-03 12:27|| Front Page Top

#20 Could it be that he rented two rooms with a door in between?
Posted by gorb 2017-10-03 12:56||   2017-10-03 12:56|| Front Page Top

#21 It was two adjoining rooms. the daily mail did a good piece on it.
Posted by 49 Pan 2017-10-03 12:58||   2017-10-03 12:58|| Front Page Top

#22 Dang Skid, post got gobbled up. Try again later, short answer is there is neat stuff out there and auto-sprinklers are going the way of the horse hair plaster.
Posted by swksvolFF 2017-10-03 13:06||   2017-10-03 13:06|| Front Page Top

#23 This seems pretty well planned, funded and executed for your basic "guy with gun goes nutso" scenario. Especially given that the shooter doesn't seem to have any military or even hunting experience.
Posted by SteveS 2017-10-03 14:11||   2017-10-03 14:11|| Front Page Top

#24 auto sprinklers are Building Code requirements
Posted by Frank G 2017-10-03 14:32||   2017-10-03 14:32|| Front Page Top

#25 If I had an auto-sprinkler kick on every time I overcooked a meal, I'd have a canoe in the basement. Top end hotel, I'd wager there is at least smoke, temperature, probably moisture (broken water pipe). I'd wager that is the procedure Skid, with maybe an alert to the front desk in case resident calls with a report.

A lot of hotel fires can be solved with a simple ABC extinguisher with fire fighters showing up to verify the fire is out.

If there are bang detectors, I could see how that would auto-dial police/SWAT, but here false alarms would be obnoxious and even dangerous, and even then this event would likely be outside set sensitivity (cued for single/semi handgun).

Auto-rolling fire every time someone had a good/bad night and lit up a cigar is also obnoxious and dangerous.

I would guess that the event alert was triggered before anyone had a good idea what was going on. Security en-route to investigate smoke alert when the radio starts blowing up.
Posted by swksvolFF 2017-10-03 14:52||   2017-10-03 14:52|| Front Page Top

#26 I don't mean to imply there isn't a suppression system, just that they would want to make sure it was necessary to activate it before unleashing a heap of water damage. I would guess the building has a on-hand supply of water, priority access to water mains, and various hook-up points for pumpers to continue a supply of water to the system if/when the on-site runs out. If a designer really wanted to get into it, a way of injecting foam into the suppression system.

One room smoke, go check it out. One room smoke heat check it and take an extinguisher just in case it was only someone ashing in the trash can but keep the radio handy. Two rooms smoke and heat, now that is a problem, so maybe get those rooms activated especially if operations can select individual rooms.
Posted by swksvolFF 2017-10-03 15:13||   2017-10-03 15:13|| Front Page Top

#27 I wonder how A shot spotter would have done with this?
I think they cost about $60,000
Posted by newc 2017-10-03 16:11||   2017-10-03 16:11|| Front Page Top

#28 Thanks Bub.
Posted by Skidmark 2017-10-03 16:13||   2017-10-03 16:13|| Front Page Top

#29 One does not simply put a bump stock on a rifle and start off by going seamlessly through drums of rounds.
Posted by swksvolFF 2017-10-03 16:42||   2017-10-03 16:42|| Front Page Top

#30 "One does not simply put a bump stock on a rifle and start off by going seamlessly through drums of rounds."
Heck, with those things, sometimes you are lucky to get off 5.
Something still looks practiced.
Posted by newc 2017-10-03 16:56||   2017-10-03 16:56|| Front Page Top

#31 Sounded like 50 capacity. If the video is to be believed, multiple flawless feeds.

Even if I got that success rate from a drum, my shoulder would be smoked and I'm not in my 60s after a white collar career. Would it be unreasonable to think drugs and/or weapons bracing is involved here?
Posted by swksvolFF 2017-10-03 18:45||   2017-10-03 18:45|| Front Page Top

#32 Or an extra shooter.
Posted by si vis pacem, para bellum 2017-10-03 19:27||   2017-10-03 19:27|| Front Page Top

#33 #32 - I've been thinking that, I guess Hotel and his video will back/shoot that down. None of the "evidence" we hear jibes (with at least MY history observations/preconceptions/white privilege/tunnel vision) with a retired accountant with NO military (or shooting buddy's recollections)
Posted by Frank G 2017-10-03 20:12||   2017-10-03 20:12|| Front Page Top

#34 #32 Or an extra shooter.

As suggested in another thread...

If it was a detective story - he wouldn't be the perp, but the first victim.
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2017-10-03 13:20
Posted by SteveS 2017-10-03 20:12||   2017-10-03 20:12|| Front Page Top

#35 You'd think in a place like Vegas, at least one security camera would capture the muzzle flashes, which would tell us if there was more than one shooter.
Posted by phil_b 2017-10-03 20:37||   2017-10-03 20:37|| Front Page Top

#36 Why break two windows?
Posted by si vis pacem, para bellum 2017-10-03 20:49||   2017-10-03 20:49|| Front Page Top

#37 Zerohedge has a story suggesting there might have been a second shooter:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-03/was-there-second-shooter-vegas
Posted by Iblis 2017-10-03 20:55||   2017-10-03 20:55|| Front Page Top

#38 Why break two windows?

People moved? Too much brass in the way? Curtains flapping too much? Shoot at first responders?
Posted by gorb 2017-10-03 21:03||   2017-10-03 21:03|| Front Page Top

#39 'Las Vegas also has a camera system like Cincinnati. Dozens of camera watch the Strip. Now, investigators are going through all of it, trying to figure out how this happened. '
Posted by phil_b 2017-10-03 21:03||   2017-10-03 21:03|| Front Page Top

#40 He also may have switched positions to locate him or complicate efforts to breach the room. Maybe to avoid counterfire?
Posted by gorb 2017-10-03 21:11||   2017-10-03 21:11|| Front Page Top

#41 If it was a detective story - he wouldn't be the perp, but the first victim.
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2017-10-03 13:20

Great line. Not much is making sense.

I can think of effective reasons to fire from multiple positions, but we are starting to get a bit complicated here.
Posted by swksvolFF 2017-10-03 21:14||   2017-10-03 21:14|| Front Page Top

#42 Well barrel gets hot so you need to change barrel or weapons. If tripods were set up, anyother reason presents itself. Also, if you stay in the same place, they can zero in I guess. I played OPFOR before so that's what I did. The echo changes in urban environment throwing everyone off.

also, don't get too ahead

False Flag Terrorism: Myth and Reality

When he is right, he is.
Posted by newc 2017-10-03 22:40||   2017-10-03 22:40|| Front Page Top

#43 If you listen carefully to the audio on the clips, you'll notice that not only is the rate of fire low for a machine gun, but that it is somewhat irregular, likely an artifact of Paddock changing pressure of his shoulder and trigger finger to sustain the action of the bump stock. It is sort of reminiscent of a Ma Deuce with the head space and timing set incorrectly.

Pictures leaked from the crime scene show that he had bipods on some of the rifles. That would have helped him compensate for muzzle rise stemming the very long bursts he was shooting (NB, IMHO, and experienced shooter would have fired 3-6 round bursts, not the very long ones you hear on the videos, therefore a good possibility that he was self-trained).

Also, the shot is not as challenging as the press has been making it out to be. I went into Google Maps and measured the distances from the furthest window and it worked out to be ~500 ft to the stage and ~1,500 ft to the what I assume to be the concession stands at the rear of the concert venue. The furthest range is well within the effective range of the AR-pattern rifles he was using, especially if they were chambered for 7.62 NATO.
Posted by 11A5S 2017-10-03 23:22||   2017-10-03 23:22|| Front Page Top

23:22 11A5S
22:48 newc
22:40 newc
22:05 Hupeting Sforza8196
21:47 Skidmark
21:44 Frank G
21:14 swksvolFF
21:11 gorb
21:04 gorb
21:03 phil_b
21:03 gorb
20:55 Iblis
20:53 gorb
20:49 si vis pacem, para bellum
20:40 newc
20:37 phil_b
20:16 SteveS
20:14 Frank G
20:12 SteveS
20:12 Frank G
19:58 M. Murcek
19:56 M. Murcek
19:47 Frank G
19:33 Thing From Snowy Mountain









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com