Article

2005-02-16 Home Front: Culture Wars

Presbyterians host âanti-Israelâ meeting to assuage guilt

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Posted by Anonymoose 2005-02-16 12:38:03 PM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Man, I was raised Presbyterian. Left years ago for other (most local) reasons, but I'm glad I got it out of the way early now. Sad how a great institution can fall.

Posted by VAMark 2005-02-16 4:33:56 PM|| 2005-02-16 4:33:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 they dont keep up with the news much, do they? Feh, i have alot more respect for somebody like Abbas, in the middle of a real political struggle, trying to find a practical course of action, than for poseurs like these.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-02-16 4:42:05 PM|| 2005-02-16 4:42:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 hey! somebody's gotta make us Catholics look good

Posted by Frank G 2005-02-16 4:43:33 PM|| 2005-02-16 4:43:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 I left the Episcopal church cause they just too interested in social rather than spiritual issues. Then I stopped attending Presbyterian Church just because of this. Both churches have declining memberships. Looks like they are committed to dying on the vine.

Posted by 2b 2005-02-16 4:58:40 PM|| 2005-02-16 4:58:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 This is why I formed my own. I will soon be in NORK and display to them my Holy Juche Septometre.

Posted by an El Ron Ron an El Ron Ron 2005-02-16 5:57:26 PM|| 2005-02-16 5:57:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Fun Fact: The Cahtolic Church has had good growth all over the planet, except in one place: Europe. In Africa and the 3rd world it is picking up du to missionaries and charity efforts. In the US, its picking up a LOT of protestants leaving the Episcopal and Presbyterians - the more "liberal" the denomination (and the less it is a God and Word centered church), the larger the number of Catholic converts coming from there. The Baptists and independent Christian churches seem to be doing well too, picking up from the dying "mainstream" protestant churches that have lost their way. The parish I am in has an average of 40 converts every year, a little less than half of them Episcopal or Presbyterian or Methodist, a little less than a third are unbaptized non-Christian (an usually formerly non-religious, sometimes an odd Unitarian in there who has seen the light, or even a Jew converting), and the other 15% or so are Baptists, with the last 10% being Jehova Witness or Mormons or similar.

Its usually a pretty eclectic group - and the real fun is to watch them learn and see how much they thought they knew of the Catholic Church was just garbage from pop culture, movies and KKK-type Catholic haters.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 7:23:01 PM|| 2005-02-16 7:23:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 good to hear OS - your thoughts on the shortage of priests in the US? - our seminaries have become too gay-oriented - I think they should allow married priests - in spite of the paplical prohibitions, IMHO it would revitalize the church. Oh, and take any pedophile priest and defrock and turn em in to the authorities. No "rehab" in another unsuspecting community

Posted by Frank G 2005-02-16 7:36:40 PM|| 2005-02-16 7:36:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Married priests - that will probably happen in our lifetime. Its already accepted in the Eastern Rite. Basically it goes like this:

The rules say a Catholic must be chaste wihin their station in life, and that once Priests are bonded to God by the Sacrement of Ordination (Holy Orders it is sometimes called), they cannot enter into the Sacrament of Marriage.

So that leaves priests neccesarily celebate, right?

Well there is a loophole.

First off, in the Roman Catholic Church, the existence of the Permanent Diaconate allows the Ordination of married men to become Deacons. They wear the collar and perform weddings, funerals, baptisms, and have designated parts of the mass. Priests go thru this stage as well, on their way to full Preisthood.

Due to this, some protestant preachers that have converted from certain Christian denominations have been allowed to become Catholic Priests and maintain thier marriage. There are a few married Roman Catholic priests already due to this doctrine.

But - the example best comes from the Easter Rite: The Eastern Rite allow a married man to enter the FULL priesthood by way of the Diaconate. In other words, the Eastern Church allows married men to go the full distance instead of stopping and being Permanent Deacons.

They differentiate between the married clergy and the celibate clergy - there are rules about remarriage, and about who can take senior positions in the Church (Cardinal Bishop, etc).

Married Clergy in the East, like the Permanent Deacons in the Roman Church, cannot remarry (remember: cannot ENTER into matrimony once ordained, but can be married before ordained). And married clergy are restricted to pastoral duties in the parish: that is, the Eastern Clergy who are married become and stay parish priests - they never become Bishops or Cardinals. Those higher offices are reserved to men that have, in essence, "Married the Church".

That is where I see the Roman Catholic Church going as a way of getting better parish priests who put their flock first because they live liek them and with them -- and this will result in more parish priests -- and this also works to help the celebate clergy to continue to put the Church first in their lives without getting caught up in lifestyle issues unless they desire it.

Think of it this way: A married parish priest would be a man with the full theological, psychological and managerial training of a currently celibate priest, and can combine that with his own family life experience. He would be very effective at seeing and helping others see and overcome their problems in marraige and relationship, with some insight as to sex, child rearing, managing a household, and sustaining a lifelong loving relationship with his spouse. And he will be living in the community, like one of the community instead of set apart. In that respect he will help his parish at a "grass roots" level far better than most unmarried and celebate priests can do - experience is a great teacher.

This is not to say there are not advantages to the celibate clergy: having the married clergy as a contrast enhances the magnitude and depth of the sacrifce and committment of the celibate preisthood - and allows them to concentrate deeply on whats best for the Church and so on.

Its a solution that needs to be looked at hard by the Roman Catholic Church. And I suspect it will slowly grind through the Church and will find its way into the accepted practices.

After all, its not Dogma related to the unchangeable truths, its Doctrine - and Doctrine is changeable because it is related to temporal things.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 8:16:25 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:16:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Side effect of married clergy: the paedophiels will nto be able to "get away with it" given that married clergy will NOT sit by - having kids of thier own will make them much more "hard core" on this subject. And married men are a bit less likely to be predatory paedophiles as well.

Which is what the Church needs.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 8:19:39 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:19:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I like it, Old Spook. I hope the transition goes easily.

Interestingly, our synagogue has seen a steady trickle of converts to Judaism... again mostly from the touchy-feely flavours of Christianity. Hmmmmm.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-02-16 8:45:52 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:45:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I totally agree - who, as a married person can take family-life recommendations from a single priest? Talk about taking a giant step toward bringing the church closer to home! I hope it happens in my life (45 now) but the church grinds forward slowly....

Posted by Frank G 2005-02-16 8:51:31 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:51:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I think a lot of this depends on who is chosen as the next Pope. If he's a hardliner (think Ratzinger....shudder...), it won't happen any time soon. But it's definitely an option that they will have to look at. I know several guys who ruled out being priests because they wanted the option of someday being married, and I don't think they were the only ones.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-16 10:43:01 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-02-16 10:43:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I'd like to see married guys be able to become priests as well for all the above mentioned benefits.

Posted by Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead 2005-02-16 11:01:26 PM|| 2005-02-16 11:01:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Fun Fact: The Cahtolic Church has had good growth all over the planet, except in one place: Europe. In Africa and the 3rd world it is picking up du to missionaries and charity efforts. In the US, its picking up a LOT of protestants leaving the Episcopal and Presbyterians - the more "liberal" the denomination (and the less it is a God and Word centered church), the larger the number of Catholic converts coming from there. The Baptists and independent Christian churches seem to be doing well too, picking up from the dying "mainstream" protestant churches that have lost their way. The parish I am in has an average of 40 converts every year, a little less than half of them Episcopal or Presbyterian or Methodist, a little less than a third are unbaptized non-Christian (an usually formerly non-religious, sometimes an odd Unitarian in there who has seen the light, or even a Jew converting), and the other 15% or so are Baptists, with the last 10% being Jehova Witness or Mormons or similar.

Its usually a pretty eclectic group - and the real fun is to watch them learn and see how much they thought they knew of the Catholic Church was just garbage from pop culture, movies and KKK-type Catholic haters.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 7:23:01 PM|| 2005-02-16 7:23:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Married priests - that will probably happen in our lifetime. Its already accepted in the Eastern Rite. Basically it goes like this:

The rules say a Catholic must be chaste wihin their station in life, and that once Priests are bonded to God by the Sacrement of Ordination (Holy Orders it is sometimes called), they cannot enter into the Sacrament of Marriage.

So that leaves priests neccesarily celebate, right?

Well there is a loophole.

First off, in the Roman Catholic Church, the existence of the Permanent Diaconate allows the Ordination of married men to become Deacons. They wear the collar and perform weddings, funerals, baptisms, and have designated parts of the mass. Priests go thru this stage as well, on their way to full Preisthood.

Due to this, some protestant preachers that have converted from certain Christian denominations have been allowed to become Catholic Priests and maintain thier marriage. There are a few married Roman Catholic priests already due to this doctrine.

But - the example best comes from the Easter Rite: The Eastern Rite allow a married man to enter the FULL priesthood by way of the Diaconate. In other words, the Eastern Church allows married men to go the full distance instead of stopping and being Permanent Deacons.

They differentiate between the married clergy and the celibate clergy - there are rules about remarriage, and about who can take senior positions in the Church (Cardinal Bishop, etc).

Married Clergy in the East, like the Permanent Deacons in the Roman Church, cannot remarry (remember: cannot ENTER into matrimony once ordained, but can be married before ordained). And married clergy are restricted to pastoral duties in the parish: that is, the Eastern Clergy who are married become and stay parish priests - they never become Bishops or Cardinals. Those higher offices are reserved to men that have, in essence, "Married the Church".

That is where I see the Roman Catholic Church going as a way of getting better parish priests who put their flock first because they live liek them and with them -- and this will result in more parish priests -- and this also works to help the celebate clergy to continue to put the Church first in their lives without getting caught up in lifestyle issues unless they desire it.

Think of it this way: A married parish priest would be a man with the full theological, psychological and managerial training of a currently celibate priest, and can combine that with his own family life experience. He would be very effective at seeing and helping others see and overcome their problems in marraige and relationship, with some insight as to sex, child rearing, managing a household, and sustaining a lifelong loving relationship with his spouse. And he will be living in the community, like one of the community instead of set apart. In that respect he will help his parish at a "grass roots" level far better than most unmarried and celebate priests can do - experience is a great teacher.

This is not to say there are not advantages to the celibate clergy: having the married clergy as a contrast enhances the magnitude and depth of the sacrifce and committment of the celibate preisthood - and allows them to concentrate deeply on whats best for the Church and so on.

Its a solution that needs to be looked at hard by the Roman Catholic Church. And I suspect it will slowly grind through the Church and will find its way into the accepted practices.

After all, its not Dogma related to the unchangeable truths, its Doctrine - and Doctrine is changeable because it is related to temporal things.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 8:16:25 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:16:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Side effect of married clergy: the paedophiels will nto be able to "get away with it" given that married clergy will NOT sit by - having kids of thier own will make them much more "hard core" on this subject. And married men are a bit less likely to be predatory paedophiles as well.

Which is what the Church needs.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 8:19:39 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:19:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 7:23:01 PM|| 2005-02-16 7:23:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 8:16:25 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:16:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-16 8:19:39 PM|| 2005-02-16 8:19:39 PM|| Front Page Top

14:02 Crerert Ebbeting3481
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23:13 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
23:02 Robert Crawford
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22:54 .com
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22:41 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:40 IToldYouSo