No one should be prosecuted for waterboarding Abu Zubaydah.
. . .
When captured in Pakistan in 2002, Zubaydah was one of the world's most notorious terrorists. The 31-year-old Saudi had compiled in his young life 37 different aliases and was under a sentence of death in Jordan for a failed plot to blow up two hotels jammed with American and Israeli tourists. The evidence was not hearsay: Zubaydah was overheard on the phone planning the attacks, which were then thwarted. He was a key planner of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, was thought to be field commander of the attack that killed 17 U.S. sailors on the USS Cole, and was involved in planning a score of other terror attacks, successful and unsuccessful. He was considered to be a primary recruiter and manager of al-Qaeda training camps.
He was, in short, a highly successful, fully engaged, career mass murderer. Think back to those pictures of workers crouched in windows high up in the burning World Trade Center towers, choosing whether to jump to their death or be burned alive. This was in part Abu Zubaydah's handiwork.
At the time of his capture in 2002, just six months after the Sept. 11 attacks, there was strong reason to believe Zubaydah knew virtually the entire organizational structure and agenda of al-Qaeda around the world. He was supervising ongoing plots to kill hundreds if not thousands of people. He was, for obvious reasons, disinclined to share this knowledge. Subjected briefly to waterboarding - less than a minute, according to published reports - he became cooperative and provided information that, according to the government, resulted in preventing planned attacks and capturing other key al-Qaeda leaders.
In the six years that have passed since the Manhattan towers collapsed, we have gained (partly through the interrogation of men like Zubaydah) a much clearer understanding of al-Qaeda and the threat it poses. While the chance of further murderous attacks is always with us, it is fair to say few of us feel the same measure of alarm we did then. The diminishment of this threat is at least in part due to the heroic efforts of the CIA, the military, and allies around the world in targeting terrorist cells.
In the process, the menace of Zubaydah himself has deflated. Today, he is just another little man in a orange jumpsuit at Guantánamo. Our national concern has shifted from stopping him to figuring out what to do with him.
And to second-guessing what was done to him. . . .
Go read the rest of it.
Posted by: Mike ||
12/24/2007 10:18 ||
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#1
You do what has to be done. Has always been thus. But you CAN'T GET CAUGHT. How is it that nothing can be kept secret anymore?
#2
Excellent editorial from a fellow who has thought long and hard about torture and its moral implications. He wrote a superb, long piece in the Atlantic Monthly a few years back which expands on the point that he makes in this piece in the Inquirer.
An excellent example of how torture yields information that can be used in an operational way is (and I skirt Godwin's Law here) that of the French Resistance and the Gestapo. The latter frequently tortured Resistance operatives, and from the information gained would roll up resistance networks and foiled operations. Ghastly business, then and now, but the Gestapo did this because -- it worked.
I don't like waterboarding. I think it's torture. I don't think we should ever use information gained from torture in any legal proceeding whatsoever. But if waterboarding Zubaydah saved some innocent lives, then I'll turn my head the other way, cough quietly, and thank the good Lord that someone is tougher than me.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 14:16 Comments ||
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#3
Here are my thoughts, for what they're worth:
We don't want waterboarding, but sadly we do need it.
Drawing and quartering is torture. Disembowling is torture. Acid drips are torture. Drilling is torture. Tying someone down and breaking one bone after another is torture. Flaying someone alive is torture. Hanging a guy by his ankles over a lit barbeque is torture. Rap is torture.
Waterboarding is astonishingly effective kids stuff. I'll bet five minutes after his 24 second waterboarding session that murderous Zubaydah could have stood up just fine and continued his terrorist "activites" without missing a beat or a good night's sleep. And all without a mark on him. I've been in worse vehicle accidents and nobody cried for me. Not even me!
Screw it. If these guys want to play by rules that make waterboarding a need, then that's the game they choose to play (it's probably part of the reason they seem to get off playing by the rules they do - so let's make it official and accomodate them!). Heck, I can't even back out of a gambling debt and these guys want to back out of getting killed or waterboarded as a result of their terrorism? Not a chance in hell! If they don't want to risk being 1% as uncomfortable as that guy they beheaded or barbequed or raped in front of his family, then they can put on uniforms and follow the genevea conventions and fight like men.
I don't like torture either, but I wouldn't put waterboarding even close to torture. I don't know what all the fuss is about. It's like people who benefit from animal testing crying about animal testing.
The world should be divided into two camps. Those who are OK with waterboarding and those who don't. If they are OK with waterboarding, then they get the benefit of the information gleaned from its application. If they are not OK with waterboarding, then they can just suffer the results of not having that info. The hard thing is it won't be long before those who don't go along with waterboarding are living in a pretty messed up world compared to those who go along with it.
I think the problem is that people can't separate the need for it from the desire for it. Nobody in their right mind would desire to live in a world that necessitated waterboarding some folks. Problem is, we need it. Making waterboarding go away won't make the bad stuff in the world go away with it. It just emboldens the bad elements and makes them worse. If I choose to throw in a little waterboarding all of a sudden deserving folks start living better and longer, and some poor baby bad guy just had a bit of an uncomfortable day. Wahh. The tradeoff is a no-brainer.
I see muslims out doing things to prove to the next muslim that they are muslim enough. From simple stuff like banging their head on the floor a bit harder, to beating themselves harder with the sword or flail, to screaming about every little insult to allah, to beheading or killing the infidel in a way that is more cruel than the next guy could think of. I have no intention of throwing away waterboarding so I can prove to the next westerner that I am "good enough" by whatever murky standard I feel they use to measure whether or not I deserve to be among them.
I am confident that I do.
Late month there was an attempt to revive the secularists' campaign of calumny against Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi and his Government on the basis of the same old fiction about the post-Godhra violence of 2002. On October 25, Aaj Tak, while broadcasting Tehelka's 'sting operation', harped on the same old refrain that Mr Modi "did not call in the Army until three days had passed".
When Aaj Tak contacted me to get my response, I told the anchor that the Godhra carnage took place on February 27, 2002, that the Hindu backlash commenced on February 28, and the Army was conducting a flag march on the forenoon of March 1. He cut me short by saying that "this is exactly what we have said, no action was taken by Mr Modi on the 29th, 30th and 31st, thus giving three clear days to the murderers... ". I had to remind him at this point that the date 28th was February 28 and there was no 29th, 30th or 31st in that month. The 'phono' was disconnected.
It is imperative that certain facts are stated to prevent the perpetuation of lies being propagated since 2002. Here are some of them:
Fact 1: Shoot at sight orders had been issued by the Government on February 28, 2002, itself. Being an Ex-DGP and a Member of Parliament at that time, I was in touch with the office of DGP Gujarat and the Commissioner of Police, Ahmedabad. I was keen to tell them: (a) Call in the Army at once; and (b) issue "shoot at sight" orders to all officers of the rank of Sub-Inspector and above. It was comforting to learn that the Gujarat Government had already taken both steps by 2.30 pm on February 28. The State Government had also requested for armed police reinforcements from neighbouring States, besides calling for the Army.
Fact 2: On the February 28 police had shot dead 10 Hindus and wounded 16 Hindus.
Fact 3: On the next day, that is, March 1, another 24 Hindus were shot dead and 40 Hindus wounded by the police.
Fact 4: In the entire period of riots, the police had shot dead 80 Hindus and wounded 207 Hindus. But no Delhi-based media showed any interest in reporting these casualties.
Fact 5: The Muslim counter-attack, which commenced from March 1, was no less ferocious. In the first three days alone, of a total of 611 deaths, 101 were caused by police firing. Of these, 61 were Hindus and 40 were Muslims.
Fact 6: As on March 5, as many as 40,000 Hindus had to be given shelter in relief camps. Plenty of media coverage was given to the plight of Muslims in relief camps but no Delhi-based media covered any Hindu relief camps.
Fact 7: In answer to Parliament questions, the UPA Home Minister provided the figures of casualties during the Gujarat riots: 790 Muslims killed, 254 Hindus killed, 2,500 wounded in all and 223 missing. These details nail the lie that what happened in Gujarat was a 'one-sided affair': For every three Muslims who died in Gujarat , one Hindu was also killed.
Such heavy casualties in riot control are unprecedented in the entire history of the Indian police. The figures of casualties caused by police firing in the first three days alone indicate the ferocity of police action. Yet, the 'secular' parties and their cohorts in media even to this day proclaim unabashedly that Mr Modi ordered the police "to look the other way" to give a free hand to 'murderers' for three days. If they have any respect for the truth, they can cross-check the casualties with hospital records. The police is duty bound to carry those killed and wounded in police firing to Government hospitals.
With the Muslim counter-attack commencing from March 1 till the riots were quelled altogether, what took place in Gujarat was a full-fledged Hindu-Muslim riot. It was no "genocide", "pogrom" or "state terrorism" against Muslims. No "modern day Nero was looking the other way". The modern day Chief Minister was dealing with the situation as best as was possible with the highly limited forces at his command.
Because of the spontaneous conflagration at scores and scores of locations, it is entirely possible that the police or Fire Brigade may have failed to reach a scene for hours, or, having been spread so thin, the police force that did reach a scene was deterred from intervening by the sheer ferocity of violence at that point in time. But to say that the police was restrained as a measure of Government policy is completely belied by the large number of casualties caused by police firing.
The insane ferocity and brutality with which Ram bhakts, including innocent children and helpless women, were roasted alive at Godhra, set the benchmark for the equally insane ferocity of the Hindu backlash and that was followed by an equally insanely ferocious counter-attack by Muslims.
The Delhi-based media made out as though the whole of Gujarat was in flames. It concealed the fact that of 18,600 villages, 240 municipal towns and 25 districts, the number of places affected by the riots was just 60. Not a single man-day was lost in the 200-odd industrial townships in Gujarat because of the riots. Examinations in schools, colleges and universities were conducted as per schedule during the period of riots.
Irrefutable confirmation that it was a communal riot and not a "genocide" or "pogrom" has come from the verdicts of courts hearing the post-Godhra riot cases. Here are some examples:
(i) The Deccan Herald reported in May 2004: "Conviction of 3 confessing Muslims for 7 years for attempted murder";
(ii) The Indian Express reported on March 19, 2006: "7 Muslims convicted for life for the murder of Mukesh Panchaal";
(iii) The Indian Express reported on March 29, 2006: "9 Muslims convicted for attempted murder and Arms Act with sentences ranging from 10 years to 18 months"; and,
(iv) The Indian Express reported on May 19, 2006: "4 Muslims nailed by DNA tests and convicted for life".
While the 'secular' parties and the 'secular' Delhi-based media singled out the Hindu backlash for mega-publicity, they blacked out the Godhra carnage as well as the Muslim counter-attack for reasons best known to them. Nevertheless, not only the minority community of Gujarat but the entire population of that State is well aware of the truth about Gujarat , or "Gujarat Ka Sach".
Tehelka and the sponsors of Tehelka have tried to vitiate the communal harmony not only of Gujarat but also of the entire country. Tehelka 'sting operation' clearly attracts Section 153A of the IPC. As Tehelka, and the television channels that broadcast studio simulated images of the riots, are headquartered in Delhi , it is incumbent upon Delhi Police, and consequently the Government of India, to take legal action against them under Section 153A of the Indian Penal Code.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 07:40 ||
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#2
. I had to remind him at this point that the
date 28th was February 28 and there was no 29th, 30th or 31st in that month. The 'phono' was disconnected.
Many media persons are confused about such things. Science is hard.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 9:45 Comments ||
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#3
One interesting thing about the riots.
They occurred during the massive militray mobilization along the border following the attack on the Indian Parliament. The diversion of troops from that theatre to riot control duties in Gujarat pretty much killed the momentum for war against Pakistan.
The Indian Government was far too preoccupied with Gujarat and lost focus. Anger over the Parliament attack faded as the riots dominated the TV screens.
The riots were started by the burning alive of Hindu pilgrims on a train. Interesting that this attack saved Pakistan.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 11:09 Comments ||
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