Article

2004-08-27 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Dan Darling 2004-08-27 12:27:32 AM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "We actually had reports of âengage and destroy the donkey,â

Sounds like a good idea to me. Bet the troops loved the irony of the animal too.

Posted by Charles 2004-08-27 12:46:13 AM|| 2004-08-27 12:46:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I like these two parts best:

"We actually had reports of âengage and destroy the donkey,â " said Maj. Tim Karcher of the 7th Cavalry Regiment. The animal appears to have died as another enemy casualty.

Perhaps the closest call came this week, when a grenade exploded in a basement room where Sgt. Varitogi Taetulli was wrestling an insurgent. The fight was a miniature version of the larger battle: Taetulli, from American Samoa, weighs 230 pounds. The militiaman weighed perhaps half as much.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-08-27 12:53:11 AM|| 2004-08-27 12:53:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Allawi needs to get on TV, radio and in the newspapers all over the region announcing the rehabilitation of the area aroudn the shrine with Iraqi oil revenues, and US funds as well.

And while he's at it, announce that if the people of Fallujah and Sadr city will submit to the central government, they will get similar aid and reconstruction, and the jobs that come with it.

Let them know there are hard ways to get aid (Najaf) and there are easier ways of doing it.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-27 1:19:37 AM|| 2004-08-27 1:19:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 How the Arab world sees the damage is a question that field commanders said they had little time to ask themselves as they constantly changed battle plans. Several noted it was Sadr who brought the fight to the holy city, not them.

Allawi and the people in charge need to make this particularly clear, over and over, until it sinks into the brains of the local population.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-08-27 1:34:35 AM|| 2004-08-27 1:34:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Several noted it was Sadr who brought the fight to the holy city, not them. Allawi and the people in charge need to make this particularly clear, over and over, until it sinks into the brains of the local population.
Don't count on it. I think you and me and other US taxpayers are on the hook for damage to "the holy city" according to the deal brokered by Sistani.

Hamid al-Khafaf, an al-Sistani spokesman, said the cleric and al-Sadr agreed on several points:
- Multinational forces are to leave both Najaf and Kufa, leaving security to local forces.

- Najaf and Kufa are to be weapons-free cities.[dream along with me]

- Compensation is to be paid to victims of the violence.[it ain't going to be Sadr picking up the tab...guess who's the deep pockets in this picture?

- Legitimate elections will be held.

Posted by rex 2004-08-27 1:53:02 AM|| 2004-08-27 1:53:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I don't suppose Iraq could ask the Euros to have Iran pick up the tab on this one seeing how their pet mullah was responsible for this whole mess?

Posted by Dan Darling 2004-08-27 2:02:49 AM|| [http://www.regnumcrucis.blogspot.com] 2004-08-27 2:02:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 So what? We're big enough to pay for it. This is no time to be a skinflint. Afterwards, everyone will say, they didn't want to come, they fought anyway and kicked Sadr's ass, didn't damage the big mosque despite it being used as a base by Sadr, and then built everything up again after they left. What a people.

Posted by gromky 2004-08-27 2:17:57 AM|| 2004-08-27 2:17:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Are we sure it wouldn't be better to spruce up around the Mosque itself but leave the Old City as is for 365 days so that all the pilgrims can get some pictures to take home with them. It's nice to rebuild but I don't want to erase the effects in such a way that the consequences of following an idiot like Sadr aren't abundantly clear. We need to clarify to the slower students that we are willing and able to bring Mogadishu to a neighborhood near you. I use the word Mogadishu for a reason. I want to re-associate Mogadishu in the Arab mind with an image of getting stomped. I think that's important to do.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-08-27 2:34:14 AM|| 2004-08-27 2:34:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 This is no time to be a skinflint.
Skinflint? Say what? Who is paying for Afghanistan's rehabilitation? Who is paying for Iraqis to take one step forward and 3 steps back?

Here's yet another reason why we need to lose the "occupier" status within 5 years. This is going to be a vicious circle. And any of you who don't think the Iraqis haven't pegged the US taxpayers as "money bags" and "owing them", you are living on another planet. We will be milked for all we are worth and we'll be nickel and dimed for the damages that occur everytime there is an insurrection. Here' how it will go down.

Sadr or a facsimile "cleric" takes over a town or part of a town. The Iraqi town folk give tacit aid and comfort to the "holy man". We are forced to bomb the heck out of the place on the town folks' behalf and then we are on the hook for "compensation." Then a few months later another "holy man" cruises into a local yokel dust bin town, takes over a mosque, blah, blah and it starts all over again.

Posted by rex 2004-08-27 3:01:03 AM|| 2004-08-27 3:01:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Sounds like some Urban renewal projects that should take about a year to get started. Level everything leave nothing for Iranian propaganda. We are not on the hook to pay for anything. Some Iranian lackys can not make deals for the U S government.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-08-27 3:08:10 AM|| 2004-08-27 3:08:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Here's an idea - don't rebuild around the shrine. Flatten what remains, and put in a nice, big, indefensible park. Re-settle the locals at a respectable distance from the shrine. Then the Iraqis will have a handsome religious precinct which won't look like perfect defensive terrain to the next group of would-be urban guerillas looking to make a point under the safety of an inviolable sacred dome.

Posted by Mitch H. 2004-08-27 8:58:16 AM|| [http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/] 2004-08-27 8:58:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 The Iraqi town folk give tacit aid and comfort to the "holy man".

all evidence is that most of the people of Najaf hated Sadr.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-27 9:38:42 AM|| 2004-08-27 9:38:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 With all the people who visit the shrine it really needs a great big huge parking lot surrounding it. Replace the old city with a metered parking lot.

Posted by 3dc 2004-08-27 10:35:20 AM|| 2004-08-27 10:35:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 an orange banner hung from a second-story window to warn pilots against bombing the school by mistake

Thanks, Mr. Reporter. US better find a new signal now.

Posted by B 2004-08-27 10:43:21 AM|| 2004-08-27 10:43:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 all evidence is that most of the people of Najaf hated Sadr.

Where did you learn that?

Posted by rex 2004-08-27 11:04:51 AM|| 2004-08-27 11:04:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Al-Qaeda already did the "hang fake orange ID banners" thing in Afghanistan, during Operation Anaconda.

Posted by gromky 2004-08-27 11:21:33 AM|| 2004-08-27 11:21:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 rex, that's Sistani-country and the city's ecenomy was based on pilgrim tourism to the shrine....how would you think this upstart has support outside Sadr City when he's basically f&*ked up Najaf's economy and shrine for what will be years of repairs and rebuilding? If they disliked him before, they hate him now...remember the vigilante killings of his Mahdis?

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-27 11:26:27 AM|| 2004-08-27 11:26:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Rex. from mainstream press, including folks with biases both ways, and from reports from US troops.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-27 11:46:15 AM|| 2004-08-27 11:46:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 ...As well as the fact that the ordinary townspeople of An Najaf have formed a vigilante force (the Thulfiqar Army) to fight Sadr. An Najaf, like most holy sites, is essentially a tourist town whose residents' livelihood is directly connected to the influx of pilgrims for across the Shi'ite world. Sadr came into their town, established himself as the local strongman, and had his brownshirts dispensing Islamic law(TM) as they saw fit and looting like thieves. Entirely apart from the fact that they took over the city's primary religious site, which usually doesn't score points with the locals.

An Najafi tribal leaders even offered to raise levies to fight Sadr back when all of this first started.

Posted by Dan Darling 2004-08-27 12:14:30 PM|| [http://www.regnumcrucis.blogspot.com] 2004-08-27 12:14:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 from mainstream press, including folks with biases both ways, and from reports from US troops.

What I read was not so clear cut anti-Sadr. MEMRI described Sadr as a brash young charismatic cleric, and that's why he was not being officially recognized at this time by Sistani and the older geezer clerics-he was too young. BUT they did recognize Sadr's appeal to the masses, because Sadr's father was hugely popular before he was assassinated by Saddam and that's why Sistani did not want any harm to come to young Sadr-fear of Shiite uprising. That tells me that young Sadr was not hated by all Shiites if the head honcho Shiite cleric wanted to ensure Sadr's personal safety. Sistani's brokering for peace was based on a self-serving interest-as Frank pointed out, money from the sites near Sadr's occupation. Sistani is not "on our side."

Btw, Sadr's "holy site occupation" in Najef was near the grave site of his father, which is still sacrosanct to most Shiites. Powerful symbolism there.

I tend to agree with Jules. We are trading one Shiite cleric for another. Sistani is just smarter than Sadr. Sistani has counselled patience to his Shiite flock-that they do not need to use weapons to gain and wield power in Iraq. Rather he has told Shiites that once the elections are set up, power will come to them through their majority vote.

I don't think the ending has been written to the Sadr story quite yet. And don't any of you forget that Sadr's militia was responsible for the ambush and murder of our GI's in the past.

Source: MEMRI 2/11/04
"Moqtada Al-Sadr: The Young Rebel of the Iraqi Shi'a Muslims"

...Unlike Al-Sistani, who has not left his home in six years and who has communicated with the outside world through intermediaries, Moqtada Al-Sadr is media savvy. While he does not shy away from conflicts, he is careful not to go overboard. With name recognition, thanks to his father, whose photographs adorn every store front in the Al-Sadr city, he is capable of attracting tens of thousands of followers from across Iraq. His greatest appeal is to the poor and the disenfranchised, and not a few of Saddam's former supporters who share his abhorrence of the Governing Council.Since the defeat of Saddam, the city named after him, Saddam City, has become Al-Sadr City, named after Moqtada Al-Sadr's father. [9] Inhabited by more than one million Shi'a loyal to Al-Sadr, the city has developed its own municipal, educational, medical, and social services. In addition, there are "courts" presided over by young judges, followers of Moqtada Al-Sadr, who adjudicate conflicts between people, and whose verdicts are carried out by "security committees." The courts follow the Shari'a (Islamic law), and those who refer to them accept their verdicts as binding. There are observers who compare these young student-judges to the students of the religious schools in Pakistan who later became the nucleus of the Taliban movement. As part of the Islamization of life in Al-Sadr City, Al-Sadr issued a Fatwa forbidding the sale of videos and of liquor...

Posted by rex 2004-08-27 12:20:09 PM|| 2004-08-27 12:20:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 I'm still thinking Sistani will be more accomodating of our POV. Especially after that wedge of C-4 was implanted in his chest during his angioplasty :-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-27 12:22:46 PM|| 2004-08-27 12:22:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Does Sistani have his own game? Hell yes! So does Putin, Blair, Berlusconi Sharon, Allawi, and any other leader that the US ends up working with as part of the WOT. People have different agendas, but that doesn't prevent cooperation in areas of mutual interest. In this case, we have a common interest with Sistani in getting Sadr out of An Najaf as quickly as possible.

Regarding Sadr's popularity, my understanding is that he is popular among the Shi'ite inhabitants of Sadr City, which is basically Baghdad's ghetto. A large part of that popularity, I suspect, comes from his ability to provide cash and an outlet for Arab Rage(TM) to Sadr City's impoverished inhabitants by virtue of all the Iranian slush money has to hand out like candy.

Posted by Dan Darling 2004-08-27 12:36:04 PM|| [http://www.regnumcrucis.blogspot.com] 2004-08-27 12:36:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Three words, piece them together however you like:
Sadr
Iran
Stooge

Posted by longtime lurker 2004-08-27 6:07:35 PM|| 2004-08-27 6:07:35 PM|| Front Page Top

15:25 Liberalhawk
15:25 Liberalhawk
15:10 Liberalhawk
15:10 Liberalhawk
14:00 Liberalhawk
14:00 Liberalhawk
14:00 Liberalhawk
14:00 Liberalhawk
14:00 Liberalhawk
14:00 Liberalhawk
22:32 Atomic Conspiracy
20:55 Shipman
18:12 Lil Dhimmi
18:05 Shipman
18:02 Shipman
17:58 Lil Dhimmi
11:47 Gentle
10:51 Mike Sylwester
09:35 badanov
09:14 Frank G
09:13 Gentle
09:10 Frank G
09:06 Mike Sylwester
03:16 Gentle