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2006-04-18 Home Front: Politix
Dem. Ariz. Gov. Vetoes Criminal Immigrant Bill
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Posted by Frank G 2006-04-18 11:40|| || Front Page|| [10 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 While immigrants provide the economy with cheap labor, Arizona spends tens of millions of dollars each year in health care and education costs for illegal workers and their families.

It would be interesting to see what economic pluses verses costs that illegals rack up. I bet the taxpayers is on the loosing end.
Posted by DarthVader 2006-04-18 12:30||   2006-04-18 12:30|| Front Page Top

#2 The problem is the economic benefits accrue, besides the illegals themselves, to a politically connected few while the costs are spread over the entire taxpaying population. It's always easier for politicians to listen to, and accept money from, a few hundred focused contributors than acceed to the wishes of the divied, non campaign contributing masses.

Like most behaviors, if you want to change it, then change the incentives. The illegal alien flood will only keep accelerating until the employers are consistently hit with economic losses for employing them. That means actually enforcing maximun employer fines and giving out incentives to both citzens and law enforcement for monetary benefit from ratting out and arresting illegals at their job sites. A mandatory $10,000 or higher fine to anyone employing illegals with 1/2 each going to citizens who inform law enforcement and the arresting law enforcement agency will tip the incentives to actually catching and deporting illegals, vs. the current incentive for law enforcement to just shut up and ignore the problem because the politicians come down on the side of the deep pocket employers who fund their political campaigns.
Posted by ed 2006-04-18 13:13||   2006-04-18 13:13|| Front Page Top

#3 divied = divided
Posted by ed 2006-04-18 13:13||   2006-04-18 13:13|| Front Page Top

#4 remember when she declared a state of emergemcy abd wanted troops on the border, yadda yadda....well, it was all for show. First chance to do something about it and....veto
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-18 13:22||   2006-04-18 13:22|| Front Page Top

#5 Except for educational reform - an area in which she is genuinely interested - the woman is just another political opportunist...

Arizona Resident Borg
Posted by borgboy 2006-04-18 13:45||   2006-04-18 13:45|| Front Page Top

#6 The illegal alien flood will only keep accelerating until the employers are consistently hit with economic losses for employing them.

More evidence of brilliant grass roots Republican thinking. Kill a business and put people out of work to get rid of a few illegals. Business owner starts up a new business only to find out he can't hire anybody because no American will do the same job for the same amount of pay. Wages and prices spiral upward. But hey, the illegals are gone.

while the costs are spread over the entire taxpaying population

More bullshit mantra. These costs are the same no matter who is doing the work: Americans, illegals, guest workers, aliens from Mars.

Thank God some parts of Washington appear to be smarter than the grass roots.
Posted by RR 2006-04-18 13:52||   2006-04-18 13:52|| Front Page Top

#7 RR (Dems good, Republicans EVIL, especially W and Rummy)

your one-note tune convinces NOBODY.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-18 13:58||   2006-04-18 13:58|| Front Page Top

#8 Um, no. No qualms with W. Rummy is overrated and should probably go but won't. Washington Republicans have so far proved they actually have brains. Some of them at least.

That just leaves you. The grass roots.
Posted by RR 2006-04-18 14:12||   2006-04-18 14:12|| Front Page Top

#9 More evidence of brilliant grass roots Republican thinking. Kill a business and put people out of work to get rid of a few illegals. Business owner starts up a new business only to find out he can't hire anybody because no American will do the same job for the same amount of pay. Wages and prices spiral upward. But hey, the illegals are gone.

You know, I think this exact same thing was said about the end of slavery.

Come to think of it slavery was done in by another of those dastardly Republicans (Lincoln). I think that filthy Civil Rights Act was their fault too!

s/Illegals/Slaves/g
Posted by Gleling Grereck4953 2006-04-18 15:01||   2006-04-18 15:01|| Front Page Top

#10 Gleling Grereck4953 is me...... (darn cookies!)
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-04-18 15:02||   2006-04-18 15:02|| Front Page Top

#11 Gov. Janet Napolitano pulls a
Recedite Retardo.
Posted by RD 2006-04-18 15:21||   2006-04-18 15:21|| Front Page Top

#12 You know, I think this exact same thing was said about the end of slavery.

LMAO! Oh God it gets better and better with you guys! Uh huh. You go dude!

Come to think of it, I think slaves got a form of amnesty, didn't they? Or were they all sent back to Africa? So those dastardly Republicans (Lincoln) were clear thinkers as well, back then. Good for them. Shame on you.
Posted by RR 2006-04-18 15:36||   2006-04-18 15:36|| Front Page Top

#13 Who knew RR is a fatcat, race to the bottom, wealth concentrating capitalist exploiter of the working class? Back to reeducation classes for you.

Kill a business and put people out of work to get rid of a few illegals.
Kill a business by paying market rates? Are you stupid, or do just act that way on blogs? On the contrary. It is those businesses that hire illegals that drive other local businesses to bankruptcy. You just advocated concentrating wealth into the hands of lawbreakers and exploiters of the workng man. Even worse, much of the paycheck that would circulate locally, thus creating more jobs, is sent to another country to produce economic activity there. A good deal for the recipients, not so good for communities where those $ are are leaving.

Come on RR, do you feel so comfortable regaling your exploitive illegal-alien-hiring robber baron buddies with stories about how you screwed the little Johhny and Lashawnda out of $5 an hour?

because no American will do the same job for the same amount of pay. Wages and prices spiral upward.
Perhaps you would like to show your solidarity with our uninvited friends by working for a fraction of what you make. But why show solidarity with just our southern neighbors? Come on RR, work for $100 a month like they do in China, bed and board included if your are lucky. Nah, didn't think so. All those jobs got done before the illegals invasion. People were just paid a middle or lower middle class wage. America had janitors, carpenters and cooks. For instance, 30 years ago LA janitors were paid $35,000/year (in today's money). Now janitors pay $6/hour. So now you have those who were/could be janitors now selling drugs on the street corner. Way to go RR, a friend to crack dealers everywhere.

ed: while the costs are spread over the entire taxpaying population
RR: More bullshit mantra. These costs are the same no matter who is doing the work

No RR. The cost to taxpayers are not the same. Those paid at going rate are more likely to have some kind of medical plan. Government is less likely to pay for legitimate workers than for the illegals' treatment plan, i.e. the emergency room. But more importantly, those employing illegals are often paying cash (e.g. day laborers), thereby avoiding paying taxes of any kind. That means the rest of the taxpayers pay for illegals' medical care, police, prison, birthing services, child welfare, schooling, etc.

You're just too lazy and cheap to mow your own lawn or cook your own food or pay a going rate to your fellow citizens.

PS. Let me know when you will be available to work for $100 a month. I am more than willing to hire you full time to pick up sidewalk dog poop in my town. Hell, I'll even fill out the paper work and pay SS and payroll taxes on your behalf. You can leave your resume here.

Posted by ed 2006-04-18 15:45||   2006-04-18 15:45|| Front Page Top

#14 One more note:
More bullshit mantra. These costs are the same no matter who is doing the work
Those unemployed, drug dealing ex-janitors and carpenters are still here. They haven't been turned into Soylent Green, though that may be convenient for RR and his exploitive buddies. They still require medical care, welfare assistance, children's schooling etc. Actually, they now require much more assistance than when they were gainfully employed.
Posted by ed 2006-04-18 16:00||   2006-04-18 16:00|| Front Page Top

#15 Come to think of it, I think slaves got a form of amnesty, didn't they? Or were they all sent back to Africa? So those dastardly Republicans (Lincoln) were clear thinkers as well, back then. Good for them. Shame on you.
Posted by RR 2006-04-18 15:36


Every hear of the country of Liberia RR? Read up on it, you might learn a thing or two.
Posted by Besoeker 2006-04-18 16:59||   2006-04-18 16:59|| Front Page Top

#16 Ed is right. The key to the whole problem is to punish those who hire illegals.

Otherwise to assert that a controlled 'guest worker' program would decrease (or increase) the numbers of available workers or their wages is simply false.

One a controlled guest worker program is in place the government (political considerations aside) can increase or decrease numbers at will (as it does with the H1B program). It can also increase or decrease the cost of these workers, and hence the wages of Americans competing for these jobs, at will by varying the fees an employer pays to hire them.
Posted by phil_b">phil_b  2006-04-18 17:46|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]  2006-04-18 17:46|| Front Page Top

#17 citing opposition from police agencies that want immigration arrests to remain the responsibility of the federal government.

I call BS! Its the Police UNION people that called for the veto in order to provide a political figleaf for the Dem gov.

The rank and file DO support the arret of illegals - hell they get the revolving door treatment so often that being able to lock them up and deport them is what a LOT of cops want to be able to do.

This shrew watns to talk tough on the border but not do anythign that woudl jeopardize her political "base".

What a 2 faced liar she is.
Posted by OldSpook 2006-04-18 18:34||   2006-04-18 18:34|| Front Page Top

#18 
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Posted by Speang Throsh4219 2006-04-18 19:04||   2006-04-18 19:04|| Front Page Top

#19 So how many Americans are lining up for the jobs that Mexicans do right now? Should strawberry pickers be earning $35,000/year? Maybe so, but I wouldn't want my strawberries costing $20/strawberry. And what is the difference between corporations migrating to where labour is cheap, and cheap labour being available onsite (to mainly small businesses)?

Sounds like you're against NAFTA and free trade, and you may have valid complaints there, but I do think that anyone producing $20 pencils in the US should really be out of business. Sorry. That's life.

I suggest for you that you take a few economics courses...micro not macro.
Posted by RR 2006-04-18 21:01||   2006-04-18 21:01|| Front Page Top

#20 she opposes automatically turning all immigrants who sneaked into the state into criminals

'Tis a harsh world when a person can be regarded as a criminal for merely committing illegal acts.
Posted by SteveS 2006-04-18 21:05||   2006-04-18 21:05|| Front Page Top

#21 She talked to Fox last year promoting Arizona as the pilot state for the guest worker program...She's not fooling anyone..and guess who Arizona's leading trading partner is..
Posted by crazyhorse 2006-04-18 21:34||   2006-04-18 21:34|| Front Page Top

#22 IOW, Arizona police units have to ignore the presence of persons unlawfully present within the jurisdiction and territories of the USA. Next thing you know the various Mafias and aligned will demand their rights as "legal illegals" or "lawful unlawfuls". Employers get to retain and preserve their already illegal private costs-benefits structure or arrangements, while US citizens and legal residents get the burden of seeing their taxes support illegals whom in all likelihood will stay permanently or portractively illegal and unregistered but still able to collect subsidized public benefits. GOOD OLE CLINTONISM AND POLITICAL PC = "NATION/GOVT/
SOCIETY OF LAWS" = MAFIA/MOB NATION, GOVT. AND SOCIETY", ERGO IS NOT HYPOCRISY, NOT BREAKING THE LAW, NOT EVEN RATTING OUT THE MOB. DEMOLEFT > "SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH, COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM - eeerrrr, meant ANTI-FASCISM - NOW, D*** YOU, as politicians obviously cannot trust themselves or anyone else to do 'the right thing'"!?
Posted by JosephMendiola 2006-04-18 22:20||   2006-04-18 22:20|| Front Page Top

#23 So how many Americans are lining up for the jobs that Mexicans do right now?
At $5 and hour, very few. At $10 or $15/hour, every one that currently works at McDonald's for $8/hour. The jobs were done before your exploitive buddies figured out they could pay second world wages by importing third world illegals to a first world nation. If there is a need, it will be done again, at a wage commensurate with demand.

but I wouldn't want my strawberries costing $20/strawberry.
You've never picked fruit, have you? Not even as a teen? It takes less than a minute to pick a pound of strawberries, even less for tree fruits like apples or plums. Even at $20/hour wages and benefits, that less than 33 cents. At most 20 cents extra per pound, not $20. You sound like a Kerry Democrat. Who did you have to sleep with to get where you are?

The other thing you are forgetting is automation. For instance a super Roomba could be developed vacuum office floors. But when janitorial contractors can pay illegals $6/hour, there is no incentive to put do the R&D or spend the several thousand dollars such a machine may cost. Same for much agricultural labor. In the long run, the retardation of technology makes us all poorer.

Free trade isn't free. It tends to equalize the economies of trading partners by retarding the growth of the high wage nation and speeds up development of the poorer. One of the few areas where free trade benefits both is when economies of scale do not kick for each individual economy. There are a few, such as aircraft, but what do you know, as the largest consumer of them, the US already the dominates. In the long term, the sum of the economies may be greater, but the richer economy still ends up behind what it would be if it instead invested in R&D and automation, instead of shipping some of the most productive jobs to wage poor countries. Trade with allies, not enemies. Free trade is for like economies.

Finally, pencils did not cost $20 when they were produced by Americans. If you are going to use examples, pick some that are realistic.
Posted by ed 2006-04-18 23:12||   2006-04-18 23:12|| Front Page Top

#24 You won't get an argument from me regarding free trade. NAFTA is a big flop, imo.

But...

At $5 and hour, very few. At $10 or $15/hour, every one that currently works at McDonald's for $8/hour.

So where will McD's get its employees after they move to the $15/hour jobs? Okay, so they raise wages to match the $15/hour jobs. That's fine if you can afford a $10 big mac. And McD's is certainly big enough to be able to pull it off. But what about the smaller businesses? $15/hour could put them out to pasture. Higher input costs will do the same.

BTW, with less than 5% unemployment, you got a plan to replace those illegals??? With what? Super Roombas?
Posted by RR 2006-04-18 23:32||   2006-04-18 23:32|| Front Page Top

#25 RR, you and your ilk make me sick. You assume that everyone is stagnant in our economy, which is far from the truth. Those who leave McDonald's for that $15/hour job will EASILY be replaced by some other HS punk wanting $8/hour. Heck, it'll probably drive McDonald's to pay $12/hour just to get people in. Add in the fact that the "baby boom" will soon be retiring, and you'll have a HUGE hole to fill in VERY high paying jobs soon. Heck, the Federal Gov't did a pull on it's employees (with the exception of military, I believe) and something like 50% of the workforce is within 5 years of retirement! The baby boom retirement will leave a huge vaccuum of higher paying jobs open soon. Will all companies re-hire some college grad at the same pay the 65-year old just retired at? No way, but the earning potential for that college grad will be a lot higher soon. There will always be BODIES to fill those vacancies...just a matter of finding people who are WILLING to work (some people refuse to work, even if a $50k/year job fell in their lap). So, the baby boom, and (hopefully) even more welfare reform should get (pretty much) anyone who wants a job a job soon.
Posted by BA 2006-04-18 23:45||   2006-04-18 23:45|| Front Page Top

#26 RR, are you proud that mcDonald's workers make $8/hour? Do you think that is a wage conducive to form stable relationships, raise families? I hope quite a few do move to $10-15/hour jobs and the rest of MickeyD's crew get a raise. Don't like that a Big Mac may cost 25 cents more? Then don't eat it. Again, what's your fascination with $25 strawberries, $20 pencils and $10 burgers. If you want to advance your arguement, use realistic numbers. For instance, think about how many Big Macs a worker makes in a hour and assume the worker gets a $5/hour raise. Now come up with a number and justify it. You may tell your sugar mamma that a burger costs $10, but those of us in the non-hoochy ecomomy know better.

Super Roombas?
Again, floor cleaning is the biggest time time sink for those cleaning our offices. Why not a toilet cleaning machine? Automation is what increases productivity. That allows more work to get done, higher wages to be paid and a better life lived.
Posted by ed 2006-04-19 00:03||   2006-04-19 00:03|| Front Page Top

#27 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Speang Throsh4219 2006-04-18 19:04||   2006-04-18 19:04|| Front Page Top

10:11 DarthVader
19:04 Speang Throsh4219
19:05 GizzardPuke
00:52 Glavilet Omesing2577
00:03 ed
23:56 DMFD
23:49 BA
23:45 BA
23:36 Inspector Clueso
23:32 RR
23:28 BA
23:27 xbalanke
23:20 ed
23:12 ed
22:44 Jackal
22:40 Frank G
22:34 Uliter Speting9313
22:20 JosephMendiola
22:07 Frank G
22:01 JosephMendiola
21:52 JosephMendiola
21:35 phil_b
21:34 crazyhorse
21:27 bombay









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