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2004-09-03 Caucasus
Hostage school stormed by Russian forces
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Posted by Lux 2004-09-03 05:34|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 The BBC is reporting Heavy gunfire and explosions as well
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-03 5:49:01 AM||   2004-09-03 5:49:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 From Haaretz flash:

12:51 Russian news agencies: Russian troops seen shooting at rebels fleeing school; roof of school collapsed
12:26 Interfax: 30 children rescued from south Russia school
12:18 Reports: Group of hostages escapes from south Russia school siege
12:10 Explosions and gunfire heard at south Russia school where hundreds of people are being held hostage
Posted by Heysenbergmayhavebeenhere 2004-09-03 6:03:01 AM||   2004-09-03 6:03:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Debka:

Hostages escape besieged school in Breslan, North Ossetia, as ferocious gunfight continues between 40 Russian Alfa soldiers and hostage takers inside building. Some terrorists made a run for it, fired on by soldiers.

Earlier, soldiers seen carrying children - some naked, injured or covered in blood - out of building, amid heavy gunfire and loud explosions. Forty children rescued so far. No information of how many still inside or casualties. Earlier report of up to 1,000 hostages. Fleet of ambulances carry injured. Four helicopters hover overhead.

Two loud explosions came before Russian assault. Earlier, Kremlin sources said troops forced to attack after phone intercepts suggested terrorists planning massacre.

Two loud explosions in school came before Russian assault. Full confrontation with hostages now raging. Earlier, Kremlin sources reported soldiers going in to collect bodies. Another report says phone intercepts suggested terrorists planning massacre.
Posted by Heysenbergmayhavebeenhere 2004-09-03 6:06:04 AM||   2004-09-03 6:06:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Sounds like the devils set off some of their explosives and the Spetznaz went in. It also sounds like a bloodbath. Every terrorist should be killed on the spot, naturally, and their bodies displayed on global television.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-03 6:26:06 AM||   2004-09-03 6:26:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 CNN now reports most children O.K. according to spokes-people, as I speak the reporter is seemingly almost in the middle of a fire-fight that is still going on, newscast show a lot of children beeing evacuated.
Posted by Heysenbergmayhavebeenhere 2004-09-03 6:27:42 AM||   2004-09-03 6:27:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 The situation is very confused at the moment, but I would say judging by the continuing gunfire and explosions that it's most certainly not over yet. Reports of some of these monsters trying to escape or even that some have escaped (with hostages). Death by vivisection is too good for them.
Posted by Lux 2004-09-03 6:33:11 AM||   2004-09-03 6:33:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 If they stayed masked the whole time, then they just ditch the masks and bomb belts (especially the women), and just slip away.

First the theater in Moscow, now this. What do you suppose would happen if the turbans tried this tactic here? How would our response compare to the Russians? More cautious? More rapid? Would we pull together, or would the partisan BS just kick into higher gear?

God, some of this video on Fox right now. It must've been +100 degrees in there. "158 kids in the local hospital." A beautiful little girl with a bruised face sitting in the back of a cop car. Bastards. More explosions. Fucking bastards.
Posted by Another Dan 2004-09-03 6:38:45 AM||   2004-09-03 6:38:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Its starting to look like some the bastards were trying to escape with a group of children that got out, other snuffies were firing on the escaping group forcing Spetznats to act.

So there might have been some "argument" among the hosyage-takers.

Very, very heavy gunfire now.
Posted by Heysenbergmayhavebeenhere 2004-09-03 6:44:45 AM||   2004-09-03 6:44:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 "House-to-house running battles through the streets." Happy hunting, spetnaz. (There's a sentence I never thought I'd have to construct.)
Posted by Another Dan 2004-09-03 6:56:26 AM||   2004-09-03 6:56:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 It appears that the devils mixed with the escaping hostages, using them as shields, with other (sacrificial) terrorists providing covering fire to keep the troops from herding the escapees into holding areas where they could be checked. Once outside the perimeter, the terrs were in with the families and gawkers and able to get into the surrounding area in the confusion of a running fight.
I don't think they'll get far if the authorities have blocked the roads and put heavy patrols into the woods with whatever air support is needed.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-03 7:06:20 AM||   2004-09-03 7:06:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Hundreds of casualties at local hospitals, the worst being sent to Vladikavkaz, the N. O. capital. The audio sounds like the fall of Berlin. Steady machine gun fire, constant heavy explosions.
Posted by Another Dan 2004-09-03 7:09:39 AM||   2004-09-03 7:09:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Russian troops in Chechnya will go absolutely apeshit when they see this.
The pictures are appalling, hundreds of naked, injured, and terrified children and teenagers, smoke getting heavier, continuous gunfire. The children are gulping water, the monsters denied it to them for three days even though it was apparently available in the building. Not even the fucking nazis would have done that. These are true devils, the cruelest and most ruthless enemy ever faced by human beings, crueler than the nazis or the Mongols though not so powerful.
They should be exterminated by any means necessary, PC-touchy-feely media world is dead. Welcome back to the jungle.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-03 7:20:34 AM||   2004-09-03 7:20:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Debka says armed townies are storming the school too.

Free advice to any Chechen or Ingush (or any variety of Muslim) anywhere in North Ossetia right now: if you can run, run. If not, hide.

It's time to get with the pogrom, people.
Posted by Another Dan 2004-09-03 7:31:14 AM||   2004-09-03 7:31:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 I have heard several Russians, including nutbag Zhirinovsky (who nevertheless knows warfare) and Afghanistan veteran Nikita Kruschev (grandson of the late Premier) insist that napalm would be very effective against the Chechen rebels.
I have seen it in action and I agree.
Screw the media and their satanic peace hypocrite hand-wringing, issue flamethrowers and napes and light 'em up.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-03 7:40:09 AM||   2004-09-03 7:40:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Heads on pikes please.. Wonder if the bbc are still calling them 'armed people'? Off to check..
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-03 7:47:47 AM||   2004-09-03 7:47:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Sad as it is , maybe some good can come out of this and russia will stop pussy footing around with this war on terror and get fully behind usa and uk. Bush has already pledged his support to Putin (prolly be finacial and millitary hardware)
The ball may start rolling fast now . expect some major announcements regarding this matter in the coming weeks .

Posted by MacNails 2004-09-03 7:50:40 AM||   2004-09-03 7:50:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Reports that the townspeople have found one of the terrorists alive, and are tearing him to pieces.
Troops making 'token' efforts to stop them...
Posted by Lux 2004-09-03 7:59:35 AM||   2004-09-03 7:59:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 time to get medievel on these terrorists
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-03 8:04:16 AM||   2004-09-03 8:04:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Do it fucking slowly..
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-03 8:04:59 AM||   2004-09-03 8:04:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 and take the battle to their paymasters and supporters in Saudi and the EU. Wetwork
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-03 8:06:22 AM||   2004-09-03 8:06:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Why won't our TV media ID's these killers as MUSLIM terrrorists?!?
Oh, no, they're "hostage takers" or "militants."
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-09-03 8:10:14 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-09-03 8:10:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Get out the iodine. The captured devil was skinned alive. Ouch!
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-03 8:15:00 AM||   2004-09-03 8:15:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Frm Russian TV website translated on freetranslation.com

Storm of school in Beslan began suddenly
As the correspondent of NTV informs, all began from two explosions which have sounded about 14 hours. That it for explosions, by the that moment nobody knew.

Before from an operative staff informed, that during negotiations with terrorists it was possible to come to the agreement on export from territory of school of bodies of victims, those whom insurgents have shot two more days back at capture of school.

After from explosions chaotic shooting has dissipated, began a smoke. Fire was conducted from all kinds of a small arms. Neither journalists, nor relatives of hostages who have pushed aside on safe distance, did not know, that occurs at school.

In some minutes from a school court yard hostages have started to run out. Exhausted, undressed, some of them could not move, them deduced(removed) and bore(took out) on a stretcher.

Approximately in half an hour after the first explosions of agency began to transfer the information on the escaped hostages and that terrorists have opened on them fire.

In an operative staff have declared, that explosions have sounded right after, how employees of the Ministry of Emergency Measures came to school to take away bodies of victims.

The panic began. Hostages have rushed away from school, and terrorists have opened on them fire. After that the special troops began to break in a building of school.

The information on that the special troops have taken under the control a building of school in Beslan, have appeared on tapes of news agencies in one and a half hour after the first explosions.

Later militarians have declared, that terrorists try to break from an environment in inhabited quarters of city. At this time agencies for the first time have named the preliminary data on wounded men - more than 200 person, among them children, and these figures are specified. Shooting in streets of Beslan proceeds till now.
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-03 10:43:20 AM||   2004-09-03 10:43:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Don't forget Logic and Sanity, which is still updating. Scroll about 40% down for today's updates.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-09-03 10:47:30 AM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]  2004-09-03 10:47:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 It'd be worthwhile to let Russia get some of the spotlight in this war on terror.

The international community has been trying to make Abu Ghraib out to be Auschwitz, trying to make the invasion of Iraq look like Hitler's land grab. They are obsessed about our actions which are lily white in comparison to the actions of terrorists. The Russians should put cameras in that gym and broadcast for the whole world to see how the lowlifes have strewn a school gymnasium with the corpses of kids under the excuse that it's a "political struggle".

#22-Not surprising. The international community's PR police seems not to have quite the fixation on the methods or motivations of the Russians, and retaliation a la Russe could really put the scare into a variety of nutcases in that part of the world, don't you think?
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 11:00:20 AM||   2004-09-03 11:00:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Seemingly accurate report from Bloomberg:

Sept. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Russian troops stormed a school in the country's south as hostages fled the gymnasium where armed terrorists held as many as 1,500 people captive for two days. Dozens of people died, Interfax and CNN reported from the scene. More than 400 hostages were taken to hospitals, Interfax reported. A cameraman from U.K.-based ITV said at least 100 dead bodies were in the school after the storm, Cable News Network reported. Interfax said ``dozens'' died. An armed group of 28 people wearing explosive belts took over the school Wednesday, demanding Russia grant full independence to Chechnya.

The raid was the fourth Chechnya-related terrorist incident in 10 days. Two passenger planes crashed Aug. 24 after explosions, killing 89 people, and 10 died on Monday evening after a suicide bomb attack near a Moscow subway station. President Vladimir Putin first commented yesterday, calling all four acts ``attacks on Russia as a whole'' as he met Jordan's King Abdullah II in Moscow. ``The feeling of stability has been very seriously undermined by one terrorist attack after another,'' said Alexei Moisseev, an economist at Moscow brokerage Renaissance Capital. ``Instead of addressing the nation, Putin made comments while meeting leaders of other nations.''

Putin's popularity has been declining this year, according to opinion polls by the Moscow-based Levada Center, an independent agency. His approval rating stood at 68 percent last month, down from 81 percent at the start of the year and the lowest level for Putin since December 2000, Levada said, based on surveys of 1,600 people across Russia with a margin of error of 3.4 percent.

Terrorists Opened Fire

Russian soldiers opened fire at terrorists who tried to flee among the hostages, Valery Andreev, a spokesman for the Federal Security Service, said in remarks broadcast on state-run Rossiya television. As many as 1,500 people, mostly women and children, were taken captive in the school on Sept. 1, Zalina Dzandarova, a former hostage who was released yesterday, said earlier today.

One or more terrorists started firing when Russian rescuers entered the school with the hostage-takers' permission to take out the bodies of between 10 and 20 people killed earlier, Andreev said. A group of 40 children broke out while the bodies were being removed and the terrorists opened fire indiscriminately, he said. The hostage-takers responded by detonating a bomb, causing the school's roof to partly collapse, Andreev said.

Russian forces blew a hole in the wall of the building where the hostages were being held to create an extra escape route for the captives, Itar-Tass reported, citing eye witnesses. The armed group had demanded the separation of Chechnya from Russia, North Ossetian President Alexander Dzasokhov told Agence France Presse. Beslan is in North Ossetia, about 60 kilometers west of the Chechen capital, Grozny. There were no ``clear demands,'' according to Dzugayev.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-03 11:05:32 AM||   2004-09-03 11:05:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Let's hope we can turn this into the same kind of god cop/bad cop alliance we had with the Russians in WWII; we accept the surender of those who admit defeat and are ready to change, they destroy everything else. Too bad they can't take thier best weapon, Winter, with them.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-03 11:05:54 AM||   2004-09-03 11:05:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 #25 The international community has been trying to make Abu Ghraib out to be Auschwitz, trying to make the invasion of Iraq look like Hitler's land grab. They are obsessed about our actions which are lily white in comparison to the actions of terrorists.

Excellent point, jules. Maybe the outside world will STFU about Iraq now. With this new nadir in cowardice, Islamic terror has finally demonstrated its insatiable thirst for innocent blood. It appears as though the terrorists were starving and dehydrating their hostages to immobilize them.

#20 and take the battle to their paymasters and supporters in Saudi and the EU. Wetwork

I'm with you, Frank G. Even though cingold tried to rip me on my support of wetwork yesterday, I still stand by it. We are on the brink of total war. The fight must be taken to the enemy. Since they have chosen to be decentralized and transnational, we must distribute our resources accordingly.

Rectal cavities like al-Qaradawi, Bashir, abu Hamza and al-Sadr all need to go into the crosshairs. After that, start removing the entire Wahhabist clergy in Saudi Arabia. Zhang Fei has it absolutely right. Wahhabism must be declared a political ideology and its proponents therefore be subjected to extreme sanctions.

How many more schools full of children must be taken hostage before we get serious? Anyone who pauses to answer that question needs to wake up and smell the coffee. The world just got an unblinking glimpse into the yawning abyss of evil.

Islamism has been devouring its young for a very long time. Little historical notice was given to this cannibalism because women and girls were most often the ones being thrown into the meat grinder. The camel jockeys are, literally, too small to get much ink and no one really comprehended the import of Iran sending ten year-old boys out in advance of their troops as human mine sweepers during the Iran-Iraq war. All that has changed forever with this one incident.

Terrorism's callous disregard for human life was finally made crystal clear on 9-11, at least for all thinking Americans. For anyone else who remained uncertain on the topic, this final demonstration of demonic viciousness should make it all clear.

We need to start waxing any and all who support violent jihad whenever and wherever we can find them. I'm so pissed off right now, I'll even venture that it might be time to start whacking militant Islamists right here in the United States. We probably need to settle for deporting them, but I am in such a rage over these scumbags that planting them is at the top of the Christmas list as of now.

ISLAMISM IS NO LONGER DEVOURING JUST ITS OWN SPAWN, IT IS NOW DEVOURING OUR YOUNG. ALL ISLAMISTS MUST DIE, NOW, NOT LATER.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-03 11:34:33 AM||   2004-09-03 11:34:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 #27 Too bad they can't take thier best weapon, Winter, with them.

Well, actually they can but, unfortunately, it's nuclear Winter.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-03 11:37:25 AM||   2004-09-03 11:37:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Why are so many of these kids naked/half-dressed? Has a triage unit disrobed them so they can determine who was severely wounded?
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 11:41:11 AM||   2004-09-03 11:41:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Heh, the only time I regret being American.
Posted by Ptah  2004-09-03 11:45:19 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]  2004-09-03 11:45:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Debka says armed townies are storming the school too. . . .

Reports that the townspeople have found one of the terrorists alive, and are tearing him to pieces. Troops making 'token' efforts to stop them . . .

. . . The captured devil was skinned alive. Ouch!


Looks like the Russians have their own 93rd Volunteer Infantry. Good for them.
Posted by Mike  2004-09-03 11:46:17 AM||   2004-09-03 11:46:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 These freaks have woken a beast that really ought not to have messed with. They think we went Godzilla on them. They ain't seen nothing yet.

Normally I'd feel sorry for anyone caught in the Bear's cross hairs when it is completely enraged but nobody deserves it more than these monsters.

jules,

I think the kids were half naked because these f***ers wouldn't allow them any air and it has been in the ninties outside over there. The kids were also not allowed food or water!

Not just holding kids hostage but torturing them. Just another banner day for the religion of peas.
Posted by peggy  2004-09-03 11:53:26 AM||   2004-09-03 11:53:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 #20 and take the battle to their paymasters and supporters in Saudi and the EU. Wetwork
Posted by: Frank G

Exactly right, Frank. Find the financial sources and take them and their families out. They will learn that there is a very heavy price to pay for laying this misery on children and their parents.

Do not depend upon the UN to do anything, that's for sure. This whole situation with terrorists holding children hostage, threatening mass killing almost makes me physically sick.
Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-09-03 11:55:37 AM||   2004-09-03 11:55:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 #30 Why are so many of these kids naked/half-dressed?

jules, it may have been a move by the terrorists to inhibit and disable their hostages. Instilling a sense of vulnerability is textbook methodology for making hostages more compliant.

#32 Troops making 'token' efforts to stop them

Not a good time for these cretins to be caught by the locals. My heart pumps piss.

I'm still waiting for the staff at all those roadblocks the terrorists drove through on their way to the school to get a sample of the population's wrath. They are very much to blame.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-03 11:55:45 AM||   2004-09-03 11:55:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 Why are so many of these kids naked/half-dressed?

Peggy's got it. Logic and Sanity reports that it's hot there (it still being summer and all), and the kids were kept herded together for easier watching. So they got hot and took their clothes off.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-09-03 11:55:53 AM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]  2004-09-03 11:55:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 Skinned alive?

I hope it's true and if so that it gets plastered all over the world's news media.

Give them something to think about.
Posted by Michael  2004-09-03 12:02:01 PM||   2004-09-03 12:02:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 I saw some of the locals seem to be taking the law into their own hands. This is good.

I just flamed the BBC over their insistance on giving this jihadi scum moral equivalence with the civilized world. More people need to put pressure on them. We also need to put pressure on Bush to give Putin support for any action against these Chechen scum dogs.

Well I am off for some "outpaitent" surgery. Not a good not to leave on with babies being held hostage yet.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-03 12:03:42 PM||   2004-09-03 12:03:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Tidbits from Logic and Sanity(Special thanks to them for giving such detailed coverage):

Several terrorists have been captured.

One of the terrorists has been severely beaten/possibly killed by an angry mob.

ex hostages are saying that terrorists began killing hostages before the storm.

When the storm began, the terrorists divided into 3 groups. First group stayed inside the school, second group tried to escape, and third tried to blend in with the hostages.

Head of the North Osetian parliament asked the civilian population to organize itself into groups and patrol the town looking for the escaping terrorists.

A female terrorist was caught. She changed into a white garb and tried to enter a hospital,
but due to the heavy police presence turned around and headed to the HQ where she was apprehended.

Doctors are afraid that some of the wounded might be terrorists.

One of the three groups of the terrorists has been killed off and their hostages freed. Reportedly, there are 9 arabs amongst the terrorists.
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-09-03 12:11:41 PM||   2004-09-03 12:11:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 http://www2.interfax.ru/eng/news/politics/040903/64802/story.html
3.9.2004 15:36 MSK
Tank shots heard in Beslan

BESLAN/MOSCOW. Sept 3 (Interfax) - Tank shots have been heard in a building
in Beslan, where some of the gunmen involved in the siege fled to after Russian forces stormed the school, an Interfax correspondent has reported.

Military helicopters are flying over the area.

In the meantime, the Russian Defense Ministry has told Interfax a Northern Caucasus Military District special task unit is currently fighting the terrorists who have left the school.

"Northern Caucasus Military District spies who followed the rebels, who have changed their clothes, have begun fighting them," Interfax was told.
Posted by Anonymous5089 2004-09-03 12:23:42 PM||   2004-09-03 12:23:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 it's really disturbing to see them naked. I find it hard to believe that the teen girls and teachers would have voluntarily stripped down to nothing - which seems to be the case in some of the photos.

Sock Puppet - Good luck in your surgery.
Posted by B 2004-09-03 12:28:38 PM||   2004-09-03 12:28:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 B,

I'm not sure that the Russians have the same concept of modesty as we do. I think they are more like the Europeans than not. I could be wrong of course but I think this is probably the case.

I really hope that I am right.
Posted by peggy  2004-09-03 12:35:19 PM||   2004-09-03 12:35:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 News in Greece mentioned that it was the Russian troops that had the kids & teachers undress, in order to be sure that no bombs had been put on them by the terrorists.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-03 12:49:08 PM||   2004-09-03 12:49:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 aris - that's reassuring. I hope you are right.
Posted by B 2004-09-03 12:50:00 PM||   2004-09-03 12:50:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 BBC stating fighting still going on. Citing reports that there may have been as many as 1200 hostages. Discussing Russian statements re: "arab" fighters as typical of Russian claims. Calling these terrorists "rebels", so take everything they say for what it's worth.
Posted by DLS 2004-09-03 12:50:08 PM||   2004-09-03 12:50:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 These pictures alternately bring tears and make me mad as hell. I heard some villagers caught and beat down some of the terrorist scum.
Posted by Chris W.  2004-09-03 12:51:28 PM||   2004-09-03 12:51:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 peggy - I think that between your and Aris' comment - it makes a good explanation as to why they are naked. Phew. That was really bothering me.
Posted by B 2004-09-03 12:54:41 PM||   2004-09-03 12:54:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 statements re: "arab" fighters as typical of Russian claims

I've seen reports other than Russian media that Chechnia served as training area for arab jihadis much as Afghanistan did. Went there to "make their bones" as it were. It was also easier than facing our troops in Iraq.
Posted by Steve  2004-09-03 1:04:31 PM||   2004-09-03 1:04:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 I would not want to be in Chechnya in the next few weeks. The bear is going to go apeshit. I have two little girls. I want to kill these guys myself. The Devil's henchmen. They are beneath mercy.
Posted by remote man 2004-09-03 1:10:50 PM||   2004-09-03 1:10:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 #38 Spod - I too have penned a fierce missive to the news editor of the Beeb website - up until today they were describing these fuckers as 'armed people' and an 'armed gang'. Today this has been changed to 'Chechen Separatists'. 3 Soldiers of Islam™ apparently still remain inside the basement with several hostages. Bastards.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-03 1:32:25 PM||   2004-09-03 1:32:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 B, If something l did happen I dont think we want to publicize it much. It would hurt the kids even more and 'pin a feather' in the terrorists cap -- those sicko probably think it would be a badge of honor.
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-09-03 1:33:18 PM||   2004-09-03 1:33:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Meant 'If something did happen I dont think we want to publicize it much.'....

Damn typos!
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-09-03 1:34:30 PM||   2004-09-03 1:34:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 And too think that all of this might have been averted if only Chechnyans had made reasonable demands from the start and then embarked on a principled non-violent struggle to achieve autonomy.

Things also might have been different if when the Russian bear reacted predictably to the stupid rebellious provocations of the separatists, Chechnyans had appealed to the world for justice and had not, under any provocation, retaliated in kind.

There was a time when I had a greater degree of sympathy for the Chechnyans. What the Russians did to them for their idiot independence ploy was beyond the pale. But they had a choice of how to respond.

They could have shamed Russia on the international stage if they had taken the course that Gandhi or MLK took. But their religion has no concept of this kind of resistance. They have only either silent suffering or explosive monstrous retaliation as models for their behavior.

all muslims believe that they have a right to decide when they have been patient enough and when they decide this for themselves they also believe that they have a right to do to any enemy what the enemy has done to them.

Islam is the ultimate cause of this sickening trajedy because instead of teaching muslims to "Do onto others as you would have them do unto you" (The Golden Rule that Jesus taught) they are taught to do onto others whatever they have done onto them.

In almost every case where muslims might have had a chance to gain the sympathy of the world for their suffering, they have blown it by increasing the overall carnage through retaliation in kind. One factor is common in all of these cases. In all of them the muslims have turned to their religion and the example of mohammed to solve their problems. In Bosnia, the one case where muslims did gain the sympathy of the world, it was because they remained as they always had been ie culturally muslim but more European in inclination.

I still feel truly sorry for whatever will happen as a result of this to any Chenyans who just want to get on with their lives. I know there must be some. I will feel sorry for what they could have been if they then decide to make others suffer as they do.

But I won't be surprised when that happens. And for any Chechnyan who takes that course, I will not have a further drop of sympathy for them. They will only have themslves and their stupid islamist leaders to blame for what they will have coming to them.

Posted by peggy  2004-09-03 1:48:52 PM||   2004-09-03 1:48:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 from :
ITAR-TASS

Translated by freetranslation.com

The death-roll in Beslan is exceeded by 150 person

03.09.2004, 20.59

BESLAN, northern Ossetia/, on September, 3./Ñïåö.êîðð. ITAR-TASS/. The death-roll in North Ossetian the city of Beslan is exceeded by 150 person. The adviser of the president of Russian Federation Aslambek Àslàkhànîv informed about it. It agrees to the data of the Ministry of Emergency Measures of the Russian Federation, 646 more have received various wounds and are delivered in hospitals of Beslan and Vladikavkaz. 332 from them - children.

As a result of fight with grasping school terrorists two employees of law enforcement bodies were lost also, three more have received wounds. Victims of tragedy became also two rescuers - employee "Tsentrospasa", two their colleagues during evacuation of bodies of victims are wounded.

While there is not clear a general number of people which appeared in hostages at terrorists. As head UFSB across Northern Ossetia Valery Andreev informed, from a building of school have been released more than 400 hostages. According to the adviser of the president of Russian Federation Aslambek Àslàkhànîv, " in telephone conversation with him terrorists asserted, that keep 1200 person ".

In the meantime, in territory of school one center of resistance of insurgents still is not suppressed. The group of terrorists is shot from separately worth school extension. It is possible, that they keep still a part of hostages.

Under Valery Andreeva's certificate, during today's events 20 gangsters, among which 10 natives of the Arabian countries have been liquidated. Earlier the adviser of the president of Russian Federation Aslambek Àslàkhànîv informed, that a building of the seized school was up to 30 gangsters. Among insurgents there were representatives of " different nationalities ". " There was full foreigners ", - he has added.

Fire at school of Beslan which has flashed as a result of fight, is extinguished. However because of explosions and a fire in a sports hall blockages were formed and now rescuers of the Ministry of Emergency Measures prepare for their analysis.

The first explosions have thundered today at school approximately at 13:15 Moscow time. Shortly before it insurgents have authorized to take out from a building about 10-20 bodies them before hostages. When employees of the Ministry of Emergency Measures evacuated bodies, terrorists, most likely, have undermined the explosives earlier established in a building. Then has taken place partial îáðóøåíèå buildings. From it people have started to be pulled out. Insurgents have opened on them chaotic shooting. Force divisions it was necessary to improvise. Under the certificate of eyewitnesses, the special troops have made low-power explosion to do an aperture within the precincts of school and to create one more way for an exit of hostages.

Chief UFSB across Northern Ossetia Valery Andreev has declared, that " any force actions in Beslan was not planned ". " We planned to continue contacts with the purpose of nonviolent clearing hostages, - has told on.-for this purpose in republic there has arrived the adviser of the president of Russian Federation Aslambek Àslàkhànîv". By words Andreyeev, supervising an operative staff, silovaka it was necessary to start to operate in reply to execution of hostages by insurgents.

" We were going to carry on dialogue to avoid blood ", - has told in turn Aslambel Aslakhanov.

On the preliminary data silovikov, operation on capture of school in Beslan was developed by Shamil Basayev, and field commander Magomet Evloev carried out. About this correspondent. The ITAR-TASS were informed by representatives of special services of Southern federal district. Besides the interlocutor of agency has told, there is an information, that " mass capture of hostages in Beslan one of ideologists of wahhabism "Abu the Lobster" has financed the Expert - safe " which is representative "al-Qaeda" in the Chechen Republic and the manager of the monetary streams acting there from abroad ".

"Wahabist Abu the Lobster financed the operation?"

That's all we need. A Wahabist with a nickname!

Posted by BigEd 2004-09-03 2:01:49 PM||   2004-09-03 2:01:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 WHy not a nickname for the Wahabists?

After all, the Mafia is famous for their nicknames - and the Wahabis are nothing more than a Mafioso type operation wrapped in a false religious mantle.

Now, one has to wonder, will Putin finally realize they have a dog in the fight, and roll some troops into Iraq in exchange for some training and inteliigence exchanges...

add 2 divisions of Russians on the borders of Iraq, especially after this travesty, and there will not be too many that survive illegal border crossings from Iran or Syrian.

Frees up lots of US troops for internal usage - training more Iraqi, and giving higher force count to those urban ops that are coming.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-09-03 2:13:58 PM||   2004-09-03 2:13:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 I like my lobsters boiled alive, butter on the side.
Posted by Steve  2004-09-03 2:43:38 PM||   2004-09-03 2:43:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 #56 I like my lobsters boiled alive

I'm confident that the residents of Breslan have a similar preference.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-03 2:53:16 PM||   2004-09-03 2:53:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 These pictures will stick.
We cannot blame 1.2 billion Muslims for them.
But we can expect from them that they stand up and say:

NOT IN OUR NAME

And this is what the world will need to demand from them.

TELL US WHERE YOU STAND. NO EXCUSES.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-03 2:57:00 PM||   2004-09-03 2:57:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Sory, TGA, their silence is deafening. 1.2 bilion muslims are on the hook.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-03 3:01:36 PM||   2004-09-03 3:01:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 TGA - I am still waiting for one single Islamic organization to do that.

Has anyone heard of one single Islamic Organization denounce it? CAIR? Islam Online?
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-09-03 3:03:52 PM||   2004-09-03 3:03:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 And, a litle closer to home, why hasn't Gentle been by to explain why these children had to die?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-03 3:06:11 PM||   2004-09-03 3:06:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 The leaders of the Western World should have a joint communiqué, demanding an answer from every Muslim leader, authority and organization to tell us where they stand. No ifs and buts. Just a Yes or No. Silence will be counted as approval of terror.

Those who approve those actions, make lame exuses or stay silent will be treated as enemies. Period.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-03 3:10:26 PM||   2004-09-03 3:10:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Wooo TGA! You rock! Great idea.
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 3:15:59 PM||   2004-09-03 3:15:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 "And don't wait for the translation! Yes or No?" (Adlai Stevenson)
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-03 3:19:50 PM||   2004-09-03 3:19:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 TGA gets it right. It's AWFULLY quiet in all those ME "Holy Cities"...
Posted by Chris W.  2004-09-03 3:21:36 PM||   2004-09-03 3:21:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Has anyone heard of one single Islamic Organization denounce it? CAIR? Islam Online?

Well i dont usually follow their sites, but i have little doubt you'll hear denunciations, just as you heard denunciations of the kidnapping of the French journalists, even from such paragons of non-violent resistance (sarcasm mode off) as Hamas.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 3:25:56 PM||   2004-09-03 3:25:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Oh they will denounce it in no uncertain terms in English

But every word they will say about it in arabic from both the pulpit and among individual will undermine their "condemnations" with excuses and legalistic word wrangling which will amount to nothing at all to make any difference whatever.

Their "poor" "misunderstood" and "desparate" brothers will get their messages loud and clear.
Posted by peggy  2004-09-03 3:34:55 PM||   2004-09-03 3:34:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 I should say that their poor brothers and sisters will get their mixed messages loud and clear.
Posted by peggy  2004-09-03 3:41:34 PM||   2004-09-03 3:41:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 That's why a a kind of 'compliance clause' needs to be built into the language; a compliance clause that is simple, unnuanced, unmistakable, devastating. The compliance clause could authorize freezing of assets, loss of a seat on an international body, or, in aggregious cases, military actions against violators. These are somewhat worn examples but we could get creative and think up even more. The clause must be binding and be literal, not figurative-which is the standard escape hatch in Arabic.
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 3:47:03 PM||   2004-09-03 3:47:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Oh no, no wiggle room there. The free nations will formulate what has to be said... in Arabic and all other languages used in Muslim countries.
And we want statements in all national TV stations and every mosque.

A formal, encompassing condemnation of terror. Nothing added by them, nothing left out.

Time frame: One month.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-03 3:56:03 PM||   2004-09-03 3:56:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 A formal, encompassing condemnation of terror. Nothing added by them, nothing left out. Time frame: One month.

Nothing added or left out? No exception for Israel? Then ive got new TGA, a fair number of your fellow Europeans couldnt pass the test either, including many of your fellow Germans. And quite a few Russians as well. Whatever consequence you have in mind for the muslims, i hope you have in mind for the europeans and Russians as well.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 3:59:17 PM||   2004-09-03 3:59:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Sounds like you might have a radically broad definition of terror, LH. What is it?
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 4:04:39 PM||   2004-09-03 4:04:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 This is exactly what the Portland '7' had planned for us in Oregon...

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=62613

The conversations ranged from inquiries about bomb making, to talk of cutting the heads off nonbelievers, to a desire to have "real" Muslim wives who would be willing to carry AK-47 assault rifles and be "ready to run and blow something up."
...
He [Jeffrey Leon Battle] had said he wanted to kill hundreds of Jews at a Portland-area synagogue or Jewish school.
...
[Portland Seven] called itself "Katibat Al-Mawt," which federal prosecutors say loosely translates to "Squad of Death."
...
Battle told the informant that he wanted a "blade" to cut off the heads of "kaffirs," or unbelievers.

-----

Exactly...
Posted by DANEgerus  2004-09-03 4:07:13 PM|| [http://www.danegerus.com/weblog]  2004-09-03 4:07:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 Huh? Er bombing cafes in Tel Aviv. Shooting at babies in settlements. That sort of thing. France wont let the EU ban all support to the "political wing of Hamas" While no other Euro govt goes that far, there are a large number of europeans who either wont condemn Hamas, or whose condemnation is laden with the lame excuses and qualifications that TGA and others consider unacceptable in the case of muslims. Go to a middle of the road bulletin board, one thats not politically focused but has an area for expressing opinions on politics - one that has large numbers of euros and Canadians and Russians - ask for a flat, unqualified denunciation of Hamas - you will get more weasel words than youd find in a year of CAIR statements. Ive been at one where everybody from gay Torontans to socialist Scots to grumpy former east germans to at least one Catholic Dutchman to bitterly antiAmerican Greeks have extreme difficulty with a simple denunciation of Hamas.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 4:14:33 PM||   2004-09-03 4:14:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 LH, as far as I remember there are no Germans or Russians who take 1000 kids as hostages, blow up buses or fly planes into buildings.

But any non Muslim leader or organization that condones terror should be treated the same way.

No exceptions.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-03 4:16:49 PM||   2004-09-03 4:16:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 LH, there is a distinction between individuals (who come in all shades of idiots) and states, political leaders, religious leaders and organizations.

First we want clear words from them. If Hamas doesn't clearly denounce terror, there is no "political" Hamas (unless this "political Hamas" severs any ties to the terrorist front and clearly denounces terror as a political means (which will not happen).

After that, anyone who supports organizations that have not clearly denounced terror, will be treated as a supporter of terror.

That's fairly easy. But first we must force them to make a stand. Silence is not an option.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-03 4:23:31 PM||   2004-09-03 4:23:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 In Auschwitz, German gaurds and seargents, shed their uniforms and put on the striped garb of prisoners, to "blend in". The American soldiers spotted them right away because they were fat and well fed.
As opposed to the jewish "detainees" who were starving to death.
Chechens doing the same, except permitting them water, as another poster noted.
Baby killers... child murderers... subhuman scum... worthy of extinction, unless and until they start bending over backwards to appease us.
Posted by an dalusian dog  2004-09-03 4:46:37 PM||   2004-09-03 4:46:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Zenster:

Your post on this story, in particular, disgusts me.

You know, I had you pegged a week after I joined this site, but I thought I'd give you a chance. All that happened is that you (at long last) have supported my initial take on you. I figured you'd "blow your cover" in September--once the elections were closer--and you did not fail to disappoint.

Not to mince words: I consider you to be in the same league as Antiwar and Gentle. Your posts are bogus and your agenda is clear. The only difference between them and you, is that you have a more "sophisticated" presentation--it's easy for most people to be fooled by your seeming "erudite," "conservative" monologues.

Here's your game: You like to "talk the conservative talk" in order to, at some later point, (i.e. lately) have a platform (which you have carefully pre-constructed with the "talk") to promote your pro-gay political agenda.

Before I go on further, allow me to congratulate you:

1) Your tough-guy/tough-talk approach is quite believable at first glance. No doubt some will get on my case for getting on yours.

2) You choose your words and your response selections carefully--you only respond to articles that are a "safe haven" for the continuation of the promotion of your carefully-constructed "persona" and political agenda, which entirely depends on people believing you and believing in you.

3) You concentrate on match-responding to the tenor and direction of the comment sections you choose with finesse--echoing the base reaction of most Rantburg regulars to terrorist murder, with singular focus. In other words, when emotions are running high, Zenster is there! An example: "ISLAMISM IS NO LONGER DEVOURING JUST ITS OWN SPAWN, IT IS NOW DEVOURING OUR YOUNG. ALL ISLAMISTS MUST DIE, NOW, NOT LATER."

On to why I find your presence in connection to this story so repulsive: Your unabashed support of the legitimization of gay "marriage" will in the end, "devour our young, " but with even more devastating results. How's that, you ask? Here's how:

The "values" espoused by the homosexual/lesbian activist lobby accomplishes the same thing as the terrorists want--i.e., the Destruction of Western Civilization. The only difference is that it's a slow bleed. By destabilizing family (mother-father-kids) as the quintessential unit for the continuation of society, hedonism takes root. Why? Because marriage and family (the continuance and support of which is diametrically opposed to hedonism) is no longer the foundation for the society. The raising of children isn't a first priority. The societal structures that once held things together, devolve into alternative social constructs allowing for self-oriented pleasure seeking as society's primary goal. The enormous sacrifices, determination, energy and financial resources that go into building a strong, stable society though the auspices of the family structure, are no longer valued, and the FACT that children do best in families with a mother and father who have a strong bond of love and commitment to each other is dismissed as "unnecessary." As an inescapable consequence, children suffer in their social, emotional, psychological and intellectual development, and eventually, (it doesn't take long, actually) the society as a whole is weakened. At that point, nothing matters but the "individual," and the unfettered "freedom" to do anything one pleases.
This, and only this, is the end result of the directives of the political movement of the homosexual/lesbian organizations. Even in their magazines there is an open proclamation to "destroy heterosexual society."

Next: The intentional "blurring" of social definitions of the homosexual/lesbian political movement is totalitarian in nature, and is another reason it should be opposed. By attempting to deconstruct society through redefining "marriage," "family," "sexuality," etc.--which is designed to overthrow the existing power structures which have their roots in a psychologically, emotionally, biologically and politically healthy view of marriage, family and sexuality, the homosexual/lesbian left (whether or not they are masquerading as "right-wing") seeks to impose their unbending and very religious-like, authoritarian counter-structure that would replace not only the moorings of society, but the moorings of the very political structures that have held our nation, in particular, together. "Political Correctness" becomes the replacement standard--which is nothing more than a mask for totalitarian directions in thinking and action.

A word about homosexuality/lesbianism before my final point: There is no such thing as "a homosexual" or "a lesbian" or "a bisexual" or "a transsexual." Rather, biologically-emotionally-psychologically-heterosexual men and women who call themselves "homosexual," "lesbian," "bi," or "trans" are simply regular people engaging in sexually-based activities with members of the same sex, or are bouncing between two preferences, or are trying to escape their own sexuality, for a variety of psychological/emotional reasons. That's it, period.

And it's not difficult to see that a "legitimatization" of such activities, that deviate from the norm, will lead to structures condoning, supporting and eventually promoting that activity, and will, in turn, weaken society.

Legislation that counters that direction should be supported. Heterosexuals (the only type of human on the planet) who are engaging in sexual deviancy of any kind weaken society, and society needs to recognize that. Sure it happens, but it shouldn’t be legally supported and afforded recognition for the reasons outlined above.

As further proof of your sidestepping: I was amazed that you go back to yesterday's posting arguments with cingold to try and shore up your reputation. A brilliant strategy--but no cigar. As I recall, cingold was arguing against "blowing all the Indonesians to hell" as you advocated for, because Indonesia is trying to adhere to the rule of law and a constitution. The fact that one of the chiefs of police was taking a former terrorist (who had changed his thinking and is now their major informant against the terrorists and terrorist operations in Indonesia) out to talk and eat "island style" makes sense in that part of the world. Duh. Anyway, the guy has a life sentence because he is in full cooperation with the authorities. The other guys have been sentenced to DEATH. Good for the Indonesians. But you, Zenster, try to discredit cingold’s point by falsely linking it with the legitimate sentiments of people like Frank G. and jules regarding the situation at the Russian school, and by capitalizing on terminology and confusing the issues. The poster cingold was not "ripping you" for your support of "wetwork" as you assert. He was merely saying your (fake) zeal is misplaced regarding the post on Indonesia. But, you're clever. Sly. As you know, most people will only let their minds record "cingold rips Zenster for being opposed to countering terrorism with strong measures."

Until you renounce your support of that which is as deadly and destructive as Islamic terrorism, and get behind the President--go play somewhere else. I'm sick of watching you toy with the people on Rantburg--regardless of your "kill-kill-kill" masquerade. And the audacity you show posting on this story--i.e. a story about families being destroyed by Islamic totalitarian monsters--when you yourself are a closet totalitarian--makes me sick.

And one final thing, Zenster: Did you notice that this region is populated mainly by “gasp!” ("faith-based") Christians. No doubt they have not yet been "enlightened" by your super-religious “secular” mindset.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-03 5:01:57 PM||   2004-09-03 5:01:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 For everyone else:

I am so deeply disturbed by the situation at this school--my heart goes out to the children and families. The photos are so heartbreaking. So many lives destroyed by such horrible "people." It's terrible and frightening to see how easy it is for the terrorists to dismantle their own humanity in the "service" of their politics. To hurt kids like this is just beyond me.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-03 5:14:31 PM||   2004-09-03 5:14:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Indeedy, where are the Gentle-men?
Posted by Shipman 2004-09-03 5:21:01 PM||   2004-09-03 5:21:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Wow, and to think that *I've* been accused of hijacking threads in the past -- often just because I chose to focus on some point in the thread that wasn't in the title.

But *this*! I'm impressed!

Anyone else thinks that ex-lib needs to go back to his medication?

The only difference is that it's a slow bleed.

Well, there's also the difference that groups of gay activists don't tend to fly airplanes into skyscrapers either, nor do they tend to take schools hostage, nor do they try to erect fascist regimes where everyone's forced to engage into gay sex, nor do they in fact try to force any other people to do what they are doing -- they only want recognition of their own lifestyle as equally legitimate.

Other than that, *sure* there's no difference whatsoever between them and Islamofascist terrorists.

What were the similarities again?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-03 5:24:27 PM||   2004-09-03 5:24:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 how were gays come into this? goddamer is evrything have to be goddam gay rights issue!
>:(
Posted by muck4doo 2004-09-03 5:26:36 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-09-03 5:26:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 I don't know about medication, Aris, but the language is over the top for me. I don't see homosexuality as the moral equivalent of terrorism, nor the likely cause for the end of the western world. To each their own, ex-lib...
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 5:31:11 PM||   2004-09-03 5:31:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 I have been ill thinking about those kids all day. Once I would have hoped that the Russians wouldn't retaliate too heavily and get "civilian" Chechen, but now I just don't care. Level it all Putin, just go on and do it.
Posted by Laurence of the Rats  2004-09-03 5:31:38 PM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/]  2004-09-03 5:31:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 Ex-lib just having his first 'acid experience' Makes Joyce look lucid.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-03 5:33:23 PM||   2004-09-03 5:33:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 Even though cingold tried to rip me on my support of wetwork yesterday, I still stand by it.

HUH? Why throw in that gratuitous and inflammatory comment on this (of all) posts. Could it be that you don’t really give a damn about these poor kids and families. FOAD! The most pertinent part (to the above statement) of what I said yesterday was:
Promoting “wetwork” (ah, what a euphemism) in [Indonesia] detracts from the goal of winning the WOT. Again, overkill and un-American.
AND
[W]hy suggest “wetwork” (which can only undermine the WOT) in a country already working hard to defeat the WOT and bring islamofascists to justice? I found that suggestion to be counterproductive. . . . I do not deny [wetwork has been a common component of American and numerous other countries' covert foreign policy for many decades]; in fact, I can only hope we have all sorts of black forces at work changing the face of the hostile world. But, then, they’re black -- so no one would really hear about those effort[s] so as to get all worked up over them, right? You might wonder why black ops are black. Might it make sense to not advertise those policies?
But, you already knew all that, right, when you post today about me ripping you over needful covert action?

I’m with ex-lib, you are a troll -- and it is particularly disgusting to see you do “your thing” in the context of today’s story of tragedy and horror. So, start flying straight and support President Bush or else come clean and admit what you’re up to. I’m sick of your gung ho, “pro-military” solutions that lack the temper of realism.

Mind you, I’m all for military and covert answers to the Islamofascist problem, but (being military solutions) those answers are grounded in realism and not pathos.

The history of your past posting is much like the early days of Man Bites Dog -- in that you work awfully hard to come across as a gung ho, pro-military, “knock down the bad guys” kind of guy -- and then (sprinkled in here and there) you dump all over the Bush administration, essentially calling them all criminals without any proof to back up the slander. Zenster, just because you sound pro-military doesn’t mean you’re not just a DU operative (or equivalent) out to slam Bush. It’s not like you ever offer alternative, realistic solutions, do you?
Posted by cingold 2004-09-03 5:38:31 PM||   2004-09-03 5:38:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 I know good people between Muslims. But they aren't good because of Islam but despite it. The good Muslims haven't read the book or have flipped the pages appealing to mass murder. Just as there were good people between those who voted for the Nazis, people who helped the old to cross the street, were life-savers and had Jewish friends. People who hadn't read Mein Kampf and didn't understand the evil laying in it. And Islam, like nazism is evil. There are humanistic pages but these are superceeded by the later surates who call to kill all infidels, the good pages are also superceeded by Muhammad's own life who had entire tribes exterminated because he wanted their riches or their women.

We have to quit the kiddy gloves and understand it is time to fight ideologically. More if you are (truly) left wing because for a really left wing person (ie NOT a poseur with rich parents a la Kerry or a la Fonda) Islam stands against every ideal of the left. No Liberty: "Islam" means submission in arabic, Islam forces you to pray five times a day, you aren't allowed to switch religions or talk freely about Muhammad. No equality: Islam places women and non-muslims as third vrate citizens, Islam admits slavery and Islam denies the right to sex for the poor as the rich monopolize women and cynically throws its sex-starved poor as cannon fodder for the Jihad. No fraternity since Kuran calls for extermination and enslavement of non-muslims, for the ethnoic cleansing of the Arabic peninsula, for the non-muslim countries are called Dar-el-Harb: the House of War, the land where Mulims are free to make war, perpetual war.

That is why we have to leave behind the "religion of peace" non-sense behind us. We have to fight Islam and destroy it in the minds of those who to now are Muslims. We have to make them see its evil just as the Allies forced Germans to see the evil of Nazism through visits to the death camps.

I am tired of the apologists and self-haters. Whatever the imperfections and crimes of the West they pale in front of those of its enemies and it gave to humankind ideals like democracy, equality, rule of law not to mention millions of scientific, artistic and technologic achievements. The Western way of life deserves to be defended.
Posted by JFM  2004-09-03 5:40:27 PM||   2004-09-03 5:40:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 how were gays come into this? goddamer is evrything have to be goddam gay rights issue!

I’m with you Mucky! Goddamer, indeed!

But, in all fairness to ex-lib, I think her references are made to explain what’s driving Zenster: as comes out in this thread and this thread. It appears that Zenster just hates Bush -- like Andrew Sullivan -- so much so that he’ll attack and undermine the one world leader who is most willing to do what it takes to win WOT, President Bush. But, I wish that weren’t the case. Goddamer, indeed, and especially on this thread.
Posted by cingold 2004-09-03 5:52:15 PM||   2004-09-03 5:52:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 From the look of the other post (lynching of terrorist) looks like there was not a boiling, but a roasting. . . .

- GET HIM mucky GET HIM. Trolls can't simply deal with trying crush of "The Lobster" and his other associates of sea life. 100 poor kids dead and all people can think of is gay rights? What planet is this? That discussion belongs on a post about Domestic Politics.
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-03 6:24:48 PM||   2004-09-03 6:24:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 #78 The "values" espoused by the homosexual/lesbian activist lobby accomplishes the same thing as the terrorists want--i.e., the Destruction of Western Civilization.

---------------

Your paranoid eggshell ego is duly noted. I freely admit that there exists a highly vocal minority of gay people who come across with the agenda you indicate. Do I need to mention Fred Phelps? There are highly vocal minorities of every stripe that, given free rein, would cause "the Destruction of Western Civilization."

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By destabilizing family (mother-father-kids) as the quintessential unit for the continuation of society, hedonism takes root.
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While the "gay-nazis" may seek what you so quakingly dread, there are millions of gay people who have no such "agenda" and merely want to live their live unmolested by hysterical hate-mongers like you. It might surprise you to find that many gay people are not hedonists and, instead, are hard working individuals who seek to make positive contributions to a tolerant and fair society, something that is obviously quite beyond your capacity to envision.

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The societal structures that once held things together, devolve into alternative social constructs allowing for self-oriented pleasure seeking as society's primary goal.

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Where in hell did that one come from? I believe there are far more heterosexual "self-oriented pleasure seeking" individuals in this world than can be counted among the gays. Your broadbrush tarring of gays is not just pathetic, but ridiculous. Again, you are being hysterical about what really is a non-existent threat, that is, unless you have an eggshell ego and glass jaw to match.

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The enormous sacrifices, determination, energy and financial resources that go into building a strong, stable society though the auspices of the family structure, are no longer valued

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No longer valued by whom? My gay friends have shown more devotion to their children than many straight couples I've met. Your generalizations are not just wrong, they are patently vicious in their willful misrepresentation.

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The intentional "blurring" of social definitions of the homosexual/lesbian political movement is totalitarian in nature

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Only to intolerant hysterical totalitarian people like you.

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By attempting to deconstruct society through redefining "marriage," "family," "sexuality," etc.--which is designed to overthrow the existing power structures which have their roots in a psychologically, emotionally, biologically and politically healthy view of marriage, family and sexuality, the homosexual/lesbian left (whether or not they are masquerading as "right-wing") seeks to impose their unbending and very religious-like, authoritarian counter-structure that would replace not only the moorings of society, but the moorings of the very political structures that have held our nation, in particular, together. "Political Correctness" becomes the replacement standard--which is nothing more than a mask for totalitarian directions in thinking and action.

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"[D]econstruct society ... overthrow the existing power structures ... unbending and very religious-like, authoritarian counter-structure ..." What have you been smoking? Again, you are attempting to apply the most extreme minority's agenda to the majority. You may as well say that Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson represent all American Christians.

---------------

A word about homosexuality/lesbianism before my final point: There is no such thing as "a homosexual" or "a lesbian" or "a bisexual" or "a transsexual." Rather, biologically-emotionally-psychologically-heterosexual men and women who call themselves "homosexual," "lesbian," "bi," or "trans" are simply regular people engaging in sexually-based activities with members of the same sex, or are bouncing between two preferences, or are trying to escape their own sexuality, for a variety of psychological/emotional reasons. That's it, period.

---------------

There are many scientists who would argue your point. I'll not waste my time on your hysterical raving. Homosexuality has been around a lot longer than modern society, Christianity or you. Your above definition constitutes an eyes-closed-tight with fingers-in-the-ear "la-la-la I can't hear you!" sort of insular mentality that led to the Salem witch trials, the Spanish Inquisition and a host of humaity's most abominable horrors.
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"blowing all the Indonesians to hell" as you advocated for

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I urge you to go back and read the thread. I advocated blowing away Imron, Amrozi and Bashir. Nowhere did I advocate wiping Indonesia off of the map. You're so lazy that you can't even be bothered to correctly cite my own postings. What does that say about you? Here's my exact post:

#1 One simple solution: A wetwork team that blows this maggot's filthy twisted @ss straight to Hell if he is ever spotted outside of prison walls. Same goes for every single one of these slimeballs, including Bashir. Bali must not be forgotten.

Unless you believe me to be accusing all Indonesia of complicity in the Bali bombing, your accusation falls to the ground.

---------------

The poster cingold was not "ripping you" for your support of "wetwork" as you assert.

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cingold most definitely objected to my advocacy of wetwork in Indonesia. He maintained that Indonesia was performing adequately and that covert intervention was not needed. Go read the thread again. Here's cingold's post:

And, regarding ”extra-judicial execution” (setting aside for the moment the issue of foreign policy concerns), now who is trashing the political concepts that make the U.S. so great . . . Again, overkill, and (dare I say it?) un-American.


My explicit point is that "foreign policy concerns" may well require the wetwork I mention. For this I am ripped for being "un-American" (although cingold later clarified upon that statement.)

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Until you renounce your support of that which is as deadly and destructive as Islamic terrorism, and get behind the President--go play somewhere else. I'm sick of watching you toy with the people on Rantburg--regardless of your "kill-kill-kill" masquerade. And the audacity you show posting on this story--i.e. a story about families being destroyed by Islamic totalitarian monsters--when you yourself are a closet totalitarian--makes me sick.

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Your equation of gay rights with terrorism goes beyond hysterical and into the lunatic fringe level of hyperventilating panic. The only stand I make about "kill-kill-kill" has to do with Islamists and terrorists in general.

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And one final thing, Zenster: Did you notice that this region is populated mainly by “gasp!” ("faith-based") Christians. No doubt they have not yet been "enlightened" by your super-religious “secular” mindset.

---------------

Why in hell do you think Breslan was selected? Are you really so opaque? Your mind has been so twisted by your own misconceptions that I cannot even pity you. You deserve every iota of the bile, vitriol and raw sewage floating in your veins. The sterile and intolerant vision of society that you stand for has already manifested in history many times. Sixty years ago countless thousands of American went abroad to fight it and many of them died doing so. We are now busy fighting the exact same sort of intolerance you spew all over again.

Demanding that I toe your party line in order to have the least validation for any of my own points is simply laughable.

cingold, you accuse me of being a "troll." Somehow, Fred and the other editors have yet to delete my postings. I think they deserve a lot of credit for assisting freedom of speech and thought.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-03 6:37:36 PM||   2004-09-03 6:37:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 Zenster, clearly you are a deconstructionist. You want to re-write history in a way that supports your radical social agendas, and you appear driven to experiment with the very fabric of society. That’s what I think is upsetting to folks like ex-lib. Personally, I get irritated by your “gung ho” approach to the WOT, both because I think it trivializes extremely serious issues like what just happened in Russia, and because it clouds the discussion of pragmatic solutions to complex problems like what just happened in Russia. Realism is needed, man, not reactionary pathos.

Also, what appears to be your social agenda keeps butting into and interfering with discussions about how to win the WOT. E.g., your obvious disdain for President Bush, probably because he doesn’t back your social sacred cows, seems to blind you to the fact that he is effectively and systematically destroying islamofascism worldwide. Today, you seem upset with what’s happened in Russia to these families and these kids (as any normal person would be, and as I certainly am), BUT (and I find this weird) there you are taking potshots at my critique of you yesterday (which I really don’t find tasteful given the context of this thread). That makes me question your sincerity. What happened in Russia should arouse outrage, but (more so) a steely determination to methodically root out the cancer of islamofascism -- no matter the cost in terms of time, resources, or personal sacrifice.

Tangentially, but perhaps not so (since it keeps popping up in your past postings), the homosexual agenda in the U.S. is deconstructionistic and is not simply some wonderful alternate lifestyle. This site and this site are hosted by homosexuals leaving (or trying to leave) the homosexual lifestyle, and address the issue of homosexual orientation and/or homosexuals raising kids. If these people (who have first-hand experience with the homosexual lifestyle) see problems with the lifestyle, maybe we should too.

Personlly, I don’t think childhood, or the military, should be used for social experiments. I also have serious political concerns with the deconstruction of socio-emotional cognitive concepts and schemas, and the traditions and mores honored worldwide and cross-culturally over millennia. Atypical sexual response patterns are nothing to be celebrated (toleration is a different matter). As I read Blackstone, to the extent the behavior is purely private, it remains a matter between the person and the Creator. To the extent it becomes public, the behavior is subject to the Rule of Law, and the traditions and mores of society.

Also, regarding your pithy:
cingold, you accuse me of being a "troll." Somehow, Fred and the other editors have yet to delete my postings. I think they deserve a lot of credit for assisting freedom of speech and thought.
Now, who has a paranoid eggshell ego? Who said anything about deleting your postings? What I love about the U.S. is the ability of people with radically different perspectives to argue about matters of importance and come to consensus on governance and action. If people like you and I and ex-lib and Jen and .com and BigEd and Mike Slyvester and [______fill in the blank] can reach a consensus on something, then maybe that’s a damn good thing to implement -- given that we have a pretty different take on a lot of other things.

That ability to engage in “civil discourse” and reach a common consensus is precisely what the islamofascists are trying to destroy with their blind rush to take over the world and subject the masses to their own brand of unholy hell. What I think a lot of people in the U.S. don’t like about the deconstructionist perspective of radical homosexuals (like the ones that kept disrupting the RNC) is that it devalues the U.S. tradition of diverse people engaging in “civil discourse” and reaching a common consensus. The “PC” perspective is just as antagonistic to traditional Western concepts of society and governance as are the islamofascists. So, speak your mind, by all means -- and so will I.
Posted by cingold 2004-09-03 7:30:45 PM||   2004-09-03 7:30:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 Deletion of postings is the penalty for trolling at the 'burg. It's what made Mr. Davis up 'n leave. I only hope he'll read here that I still want him back. But I am really beginning to fear he has taken up with Gentle as we haven't heard from either for a while.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-03 7:36:43 PM||   2004-09-03 7:36:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#93 Cingold> E.g., your obvious disdain for President Bush, probably because he doesn’t back your social sacred cows, seems to blind you to the fact that he is effectively and systematically destroying islamofascism worldwide

That's not a fact, that's merely your *opinion* about what President Bush is doing.

Your whole posts, both yours and ex-lib's, are synopsised down to "We hate you because you don't like Bush, because you support issues that both we and Bush oppose."

Grow up. Thinking that Bush is incompetent (or even immoral) is as much a legitimate political stance to take as thinking that Kerry is such. And nobody should be told to leave a forum unless they start liking the politicians you like.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-03 7:54:07 PM||   2004-09-03 7:54:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#94 Thinking that Bush is incompetent (or even immoral) is as much a legitimate political stance to take as thinking that Kerry is such. And nobody should be told to leave a forum unless they start liking the politicians you like.

Duh. Who said anything different? Oh, I get it, dissent is immaturity.
Posted by cingold 2004-09-03 7:58:59 PM||   2004-09-03 7:58:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 Duh. Who said anything different?

Um, ex-lib. Who said: "Until you renounce your support of that which is as deadly and destructive as Islamic terrorism [gay rights], and get behind the President--go play somewhere else. "

That was pretty much the whole point of his whole post which started this diversion, though he padded it out to cover a couple pages.

Your whole babble about people discoursing and reaching consensus seems rather meaningless when you address it to the person that *didn't* ask other leave for not sharing his belief, and you didn't address it to the person who did ask it.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-03 8:13:51 PM||   2004-09-03 8:13:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 Wow, wtf happened to this thread? Lots of innocent Russian kids are dead, parents are grieving - (I have a little boy toddler and can't imagine the agony of such a situation)- and some of you are slap-fighting each other over non-sense. Think I need a beer.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-09-03 8:15:29 PM||   2004-09-03 8:15:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#97 Here are photos of the casualties from AP ... my blood is cold, disgustingly so, desensitized by war and pain, but my conscience is still there, so I say Кровь для крови!
Posted by Edward Yee  2004-09-03 8:24:20 PM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net]  2004-09-03 8:24:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#98 I'm with you Jarhead!

SF
Posted by RN  2004-09-03 8:33:34 PM||   2004-09-03 8:33:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#99 I'm with you Jarhead!

SF
Posted by RN  2004-09-03 8:34:53 PM||   2004-09-03 8:34:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#100 I agree. This discussion really doesn't belong in this thread.

I haven't been that angry and sad since 9/11.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-03 8:37:26 PM||   2004-09-03 8:37:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#101 As we look down the road and the Russians find out where exactly these terrorists came from - I'm wondering what their ultimate actions are going to be. Wonder how many of the (9?) arab terrorists in the group were from the magic kingdom? Where were these guys trained at & by whose funding? All these questions imho will be answered and then the Russians are going to have to act. I have feeling some chechen villages might be getting razed in the next couple of weeks. My prayers go out to the families of these innocent children, may the great spirit give them strength.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-09-03 8:39:16 PM||   2004-09-03 8:39:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#102 Thank you, Jarhead, for putting us back on track.

By the way, the Russian I inserted was "krov za krov" (?) -- "blood for blood".
Posted by Edward Yee  2004-09-03 10:29:41 PM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net]  2004-09-03 10:29:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#103 I was at a party and wasn’t able to respond right away. I will now:

I think I was ten-years-old when I first saw the “Question Authority” bumper sticker. It made sense to me then, and I’ve stuck with it ever since. Unlike many people, who have “gone unquestioningly into the night” regarding the favored sacred-cow issues of certain of the academic elites, I hold no topic “off limits” to the plain virtues of free question and debate.

However, it should be noted that for more than 20 years, the homosexual/lesbian political organizations have attempted to equate questioning their points of view and their practices as unwelcome dissent at best, and as the embodiment of everything that would be socially unacceptable and undesirable, at worst. In this way, they attempt to convince people to accept their point of view without question. Nobody wants to be an “intolerant” backward “racist.”

Zenster is a case in point, and it’s clear that I pushed the right buttons. Instead of reasonably debating/discussing the points I raised, he does the ol’ “equate ‘em with the baddies” move.

“Your paranoid eggshell ego is duly noted . . .”

I’m not paranoid, as everyone knows (BTW--that’s the “homo-PHOBIA” platform), and my ego is hardly fragile.

“ . . . hysterical hate-mongers like you . . .”

Nothing I said indicated any level of HATE. Pffft--

“ . . . intolerant hysterical totalitarian people like you . . .”

Oh yeah, right. I’m a totalitarian, as EVERYONE knows!

“Your equation of gay rights with terrorism goes beyond hysterical and into the lunatic fringe level of hyperventilating panic . . .”

Again, he’s trying to equate my points with irrational “panic” of some kind. But I’m not, nor have I been “panicked.” I wasn’t equating gay rights with terrorism anyway--I was equating the gay agenda with totalitarianism. Besides, “gay rights” is a false concept, because heterosexual people who are engaging in sexual activities with members of their own sex, who are bouncing between the sexes, or who are trying to escape their sexual identity for psychological reasons, i.e., “gay” people , already have the same rights as the rest of us. And they, actually, are very intolerant and hate-oriented, I’ve found.

“Your mind has been so twisted by your own misconceptions that I cannot even pity you. You deserve every iota of the bile, vitriol and raw sewage floating in your veins.”

Wow. This sounds the most like Antiwar yet. ALL trolls devolve to this level when you hit the right buttons. I’m sure most people here can recall that the Antiwar(s) dispatched with the “peace and love” tact, and wished cancer on me--and that I would die a horrible death--because of my condemnation of terrorism, and because I was exposing them.

“ . . . (gays are) individuals who seek to make positive contributions to a tolerant and fair society, something that is obviously quite beyond your capacity to envision. . .”

I just love how “tolerant and fair” Zenster is in this post to me. Again, just like Antiwar. I tolerate people who are doing sexual things outside the norm, but legislating in support of it is a different matter, entirely.

“While the "gay-nazis" may seek what you so quakingly dread . . .”

So “quakingly dread?’ Ha! How bizarre. I don’t “quakingly dread” totalitarianism. I just happen to think it totally sucks. And wasn’t bringing up anything about “gay-nazis”, but I guess it’s good that at least he knows there are heterosexual people who are engaging in sexual activities with members of their own sex, who are bouncing between the sexes, or who are trying to escape their sexual identity for psychological reasons, who would like to enact a totalitarian state that they could be in charge of. But that’s another topic . . .

“Homosexuality has been around a lot longer than modern society, Christianity or you.”

Did he think this was news to me? And what’s his point? His vitriol against (“faith-based”) Christianity is about the same as it is against terrorism and against me, here today. And that's significant.

(In his opinion I have the ) “ . . . sort of insular mentality that led to the Salem witch trials , the Spanish Inquisition and a host of humanity's most abominable horrors.”

You’ve got to be kidding. Now I’m Sadaam Hussein! No--I’m Stalin! And uh-hem--it's been concluded that the grain in Salem had been contaminated with a fungus that caused delirium.

“Your mind has been so twisted by your own misconceptions that I cannot even pity you.”

Oh dear. How will I ever go on?

“The sterile and intolerant vision of society that you stand for has already manifested in history many times. Sixty years ago countless thousands of American went abroad to fight it and many of them died doing so.”

Oh, so now I’m a Nazi and good American men died to fight save the world from people like me.


Zenster is the most clever TROLL that frequents Rantburg. When he first came here, he perused the internet and listed a lot of information to make himself seem like an “expert.” Next, he took on a kind of “Rambo” persona--”kill them all, hold Mecca and Medina hostage, etc.” in order to endear himself to the conservatives. His goal is to gain confidences, so that when he puts forth his actual agenda, he can take at least some people his direction--in support of “gay marriage” and against the re-election of George W. Bush.

I only responded on this thread, because it was Zenster, actually, who was "hijacking" the thread, in the way that I have already identifiied and described. The take-over at the Russian school was so awful, I just couldn't stomach Zenster using it for his usual game.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-03 11:27:04 PM||   2004-09-03 11:27:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#104 And another thank you as well, Jarhead. What happened today in Breslan needs to be etched into everyone's collective memory.

I've just scanned both the Google main news page and their world headlines. Guess what? Not a single stinking Muslim organization has stepped up to the microphone and condemned this atrocity. As always, a thundering silence.

I can only agree with you, True German Ally. Your call for an unequivocal showing of hands from all world leaders regarding this atrocity is the most straight-forward and productive suggestion I've seen yet. It would be the best possible thing to clearly choose up sides over this one exact event. Few others will be so binary in nature.

#100 I haven't been that angry and sad since 9/11.

Neither have I.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-03 11:32:35 PM||   2004-09-03 11:32:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#105 Masterful, Zenster. Gotta hand it to you. Who could disagree?

Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-03 11:47:35 PM||   2004-09-03 11:47:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#106 Apologies, TGA. You are right.

Ex-lib, this is the last I'm gonna bother with a crazy such as yourself who has claimed supporting gay rights is as evil as supporting terrorism: You are a raving lunatic. Get a fucking grip and get a fucking perspective.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-03 11:50:30 PM||   2004-09-03 11:50:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#107 The psychology of this thing is much like that of Nazi Germany. Before people can treat another human being in this fashion, they must first utterly discount that the human being has anything worthwhile to contribute.

So what do we see?

The islamofascists strip these poor kids naked, starve them, deprive them of water--dehumanize them. Blinding themselves to the essential humanity of the world in which they live is how they do what they do. Nothing is worthwhile to them, unless it fits within their narrow-minded schema. Our war on terror must not be only military, but we must endeavor to change hearts and minds.
Posted by cingold 2004-09-03 11:57:22 PM||   2004-09-03 11:57:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#108 I stand with ex-lib and cingold and Dotcom pretty much says the same about Zenster.
The whole "gay" "marriage" thing is a form of social, cultural and sexual terrorism.
The Left (Commies, Marxists and Socialists) are out to tear down Western Civilization any way they can and so destroying a fundamental institution like traditional marriage is a big goal for them.
The IslamoNazis are out to tear down Western Civilization, too, to replace it with shari'a and Islam so they've joined common cause with the (Western) Left to wage jihad.
Both groups figure they'll win any internecine struggle and get what they want for "their" world later.
Zenster does call for a "Kill them all and let God sort it out" war strategy for the IslamoNazis, yet professes hate for President Bush because he opposes gay marriage and is a Christian.
I just don't know who Gay Rambo is going to vote for.

TGA's heart is in the right place, but the time for "world leaders" to make a statement condemning Islamist terrorism was 9/12/01 and then 10/12/02 (Bali bombing) and then 3/11/04.
And of course, issuing a statement is painless.
Joining the Coalition and putting your money where your mouth is, is something quite different.
Ask Jacques Chirac, who was full of sympathy when he visited Ground Zero after 9/11 but MIA when it came time to deal with the Taliban and Saddam.

As for Breslan, this is a new appallingly horrible "low" for the Islamist evildoers and shows that they will go to any lengths whatsoever to kill "infidels."
Aris, shockingly, does make a good point: Putin is going to have to decide whether he's on our side or the side of the terrorists.
He's got to quite arming and supporting his own and our enemies, like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Saddam's Iraq and North Korea before he sees real results in the War on terror at home and before we can really ask him to stand with us to fight this enemy.
Clearly, someone who means business is going to have to go and clean out AQ from the Pankisi Gorge in Georgia someday soon and I have a feeling it will be the Allied Coalition, but Putin's got to work with us to win the war on all the other fronts.
(Aris was wrong about the Caucausus, however, which is apparently why AQ is making their move now.
Russia's too weak and beleaguered to move in.
But there are other world powers that aren't--ahem!)
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-09-04 1:06:29 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-09-04 1:06:29 AM|| Front Page Top

19:36 UFO
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