Article

2004-04-21 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-21 9:32:47 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Is Fallujah burning? I hope they don't make the marines fight block by block. I hope they mop up after blocks go drop.

Posted by Lucky 2004-04-21 11:28:36 AM|| 2004-04-21 11:28:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Prediction: We'll fight for a few days or more and then another cease-fire will be called.

Repeat and rinse.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-04-21 11:35:53 AM|| 2004-04-21 11:35:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 You are now free to exterminate the enemy.

Posted by Chris W. 2004-04-21 11:37:07 AM|| 2004-04-21 11:37:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Lucky, mops take too long. If the chunks are small and won't clog the drains, I recommend a one inch diameter hose with a hard jacket that is available on a spool for this application. Note - this hose requires an adaptor for use with most hydrants but is small enough to be used by a single operate.

If the chunks are medium-sized, I would try a Zamboni and two guys with squeegees. Note - Zamboniing after-battle chunks has not been tried to my knowledge and mishaps would probably void any warrantees on the equipment.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-04-21 11:42:21 AM|| 2004-04-21 11:42:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Water presure might be a bit weak for an effective hosing. But if you do get the ground clear enough the Zamboni could make sense. The Falluja Flames of the mid-east conference.

Yo Sam, man I hope not.

Posted by Lucky 2004-04-21 11:59:15 AM|| 2004-04-21 11:59:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Turban hunting season has reopened. No limit. No fire-arm or ammo restrictions.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-04-21 12:30:24 PM|| 2004-04-21 12:30:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Those of you with Abrams tanks are authorized to use the 120-gauge cylinder bore with either the APERS or the depleted uranium "super-size deer slug."

Posted by Mike 2004-04-21 12:35:09 PM|| 2004-04-21 12:35:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Well now, you wouldn't need to mop up after dropping a few daisey cutters, or MOAB's.

Posted by Bill 2004-04-21 1:13:59 PM|| 2004-04-21 1:13:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Y. Sam, I agree. At the civilan political leadership level, we have lost the concept of "momentum".

I wil be that we will see cycles of the following:

1. News reports US Marine actions

2. Followed within a day or so by Al-Jizz reports of civilian casualties/US atrocities

3. Which are repeated in "Westenr" media in a day or so

4. Then, calls from CPA, etc for a ceasefire in order to get the "negotiations" "back on track"

5. Halt of US offensive operations

Repeat.

Posted by Carl in N.H 2004-04-21 1:20:45 PM|| 2004-04-21 1:20:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I hope that we have equipped the marines with video cameras (or any cameras) so they can record the 'noble rebels' hiding behind women and children, using them as human shields, shooting them in the back, etc...

We have to start fighting this war on the airwaves as well as on the ground. As morbid as it sounds people will flock to see some 'rebel fighter' hiding behind a woman or little girl or even some civilians being killed by the 'noble freedom fighters'. Once people start seeing this for real the less 'noble' they will be perceived.

You can bet your ass Al-jitzz will have the hospitals and clinics staked out to get that all-important (now disarmed) 'civilian' with some bloody wound. One or two videos in some press conference (or even available on the net in the media refuses to report it) showing how the 'civilians' get 'wounded' would take the wind out of Al-jitzz's sails.

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-04-21 1:36:23 PM|| 2004-04-21 1:36:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Carl you seem to be a little down recently.

Posted by Shipman 2004-04-21 1:44:53 PM|| 2004-04-21 1:44:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Re: #10

Hmmmm... I would think gunsight cameras for sniper scopes could be arranged...

Posted by mojo 2004-04-21 2:10:13 PM|| 2004-04-21 2:10:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 If the "cease-fire" is indeed over, then whenever the Marines find these insurgents, they should shoot to kill. Take no prisoners. They'd be a waste to feed anyway.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-04-21 2:21:06 PM|| 2004-04-21 2:21:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 losing military momentum on the ground is a concern. OTOH keeping the IGC together is also a concern. What good does it to take Fallujah, and have half the IGC resign on us??? Do we then postpone handover??? Resulting in more discontent from folks who are still with us?? Things ARENT as bad in Iraq now as the headline writers in the mainstream media imply, but they COULD go south real fast. We're doing tolerably well cause the insurgencies probably have the support of only about 25% of Iraqis (about half of the Sunni Arabs, and about a quarter of the Shia, at most) IF there were truely to be a general rising, we DONT have enough troops in country to control it, and would have difficulty assembling enough troops. In which case going Roman on Fallujah might make the rest of Iraq hate us, but WOULDNT make them fear us.

Current approach seems best - give the locals a chance to negotiate, show the iraqis you DONT want to destroy Fallujah, but WHEN the baddies come at you, kill as many as possible.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-21 4:48:19 PM|| 2004-04-21 4:48:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Later, commanders said some weapons had been surrendered, but almost all were useless.

Then they aren't "weapons." Ceasefire over. Open season.

I'm still waiting to see some actual numbers revealing the gender of these "civilian" casualties. If an overwhelming majority of the Fallujan wounded and dead are men of fighting age, all the media pissing and moaning means squat.

Our military really needs to publish these figures immediately in order to counter any accusations of atrocities being committed by our troops.

Posted by Zenster 2004-04-21 4:52:14 PM|| 2004-04-21 4:52:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Isn't the IGC going to now be desolved on 6/30 and replaced with a "UN-backed caretaker goverment?" . . . yeah, that'll work.

But, if that is in fact the new plan of record (no sure it is, but . . . ), doesn't it seem less relevant whether the IGC mutinies over a real siege of Fallujah?

Posted by spiffo 2004-04-21 4:52:42 PM|| 2004-04-21 4:52:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Not clear, spiff. It'll definitely be a caretaker govt. And I hope the UN backs it, but that doesnt mean theyll pick it. IGC will probably still have a role in picking the new govt, and many will go onto it.

In any case, if the IGC falls apart pre-June 30 that pretty much takes away most of the leverage we have over what happens post June 30.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-21 4:56:37 PM|| 2004-04-21 4:56:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 ... they should shoot to kill

Agreed. The insurgents are shooting to kill. Sauce for the goose is in order.

Posted by Zenster 2004-04-21 4:59:29 PM|| 2004-04-21 4:59:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Generally agree with the idea that we need to ba a bit pragmatic, but ging 'Roman' on Fallouja would probably increase our support in many parts of Iraq. Not sure the Kurds and Shia would shed that many tears if we liquidated the worst of the Sunni Baathists who had been oppressing them for decades.

Posted by JAB 2004-04-21 8:04:06 PM|| 2004-04-21 8:04:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Shipman: Carl you seem to be a little down recently

Yep. I think that the decision to call a ceasefire in Falluja was the latest and greatest misstep:

a) it killed the momentum of the troops on the ground
b) the people we are fighting are not negotiable with, so any "ceasefire" is one-sided and meaningless; what's the point ?
c) it is *not* going to stop Al-Jizz atrocity porn -- that will always be a feature in that culture no matter what we do
d) it gives the enemy the source for their own legends about stopping the mighty Yankees and boosts their morale. And recruitment.
e) it makes us look indecisive in the eyes of the rest of the world, and confirms stereotypes about Mogadishu, Vietnam, etc: "kill a few Americans, and they give up"
f) it is the latest manifestation of the political hesitance which I have started to suspect in this administration at home and abroad. The main reason I thought Bush was The Right Man was because he had his eye on the ball. Now I am not sure.

So, I see this as an inflection point. I would be surprised to see any vigorous and positive action against the enemy, and instead expect things to bump along past June 30, maybe into the next year, pretty much along the current pattern of reacting to enemy initiatives.

This is not a way to win.

Posted by Carl in N.H. 2004-04-21 11:03:36 PM|| 2004-04-21 11:03:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Carl: how about PR and resupply/consolidation/sharing of intel?...don't be so down....

Posted by Frank G 2004-04-21 11:09:26 PM|| 2004-04-21 11:09:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 g) Gives the leaders plenty of time to exfiltrate and live another day.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-21 11:26:11 PM|| 2004-04-21 11:26:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Frank:

The PR bit I tried to cover in c) i.e. we are painted pretty badly by the locals no matter what we do, so a PR appeal to them is a waste of time. Dragging out a "siege" just adds more fuel to their sick little fantasies. Getting things done so fast their heads spin is the only way to alleviate the PR hit.

Resupply & consolidation: I don't have any experience in the area, but I would hope that 1) we didn't use up our stocks that fast (the marines just got in theater, right?) and 2) anyway, we should be able to keep the initiative while getting supplies forward.

Intel gathering I can understand, but a certain amount of such activities can be done while moving forward and keeping the enemy fighters off balance and on the run. Plus, once you get the killers out of the neighborhood, you could have locals come out as new sources of intel.

11A5S: To your comment, I recall reading something in the past day or so to the effect that the cordon, such as it is, only covers main roads, so losing the leaders is a distinct possibility. I assume that this is the best we could do with the forces at hand. I don't know what the perimeter of Falluja is, but I am sure it is substantial.

Posted by Carl in N.H. 2004-04-21 11:51:35 PM|| 2004-04-21 11:51:35 PM|| Front Page Top

10:19 Yosemite Sam
06:19 Howard UK
06:12 .com
04:46 Neo
04:34 Super Hose
04:21 Super Hose
04:17 Howard UK
04:16 Super Hose
04:14 Super Hose
04:10 Howard UK
03:10 Super Hose
02:58 Super Hose
02:53 Super Hose
02:52 Super Hose
02:51 Zenster
02:47 Super Hose
02:44 Super Hose
23:57 Halfass Pete
23:51 Carl in N.H.
23:46 Mike Sylwester
23:41 ColoradoConservative
23:38 Mike Sylwester
23:35 Gromky
23:32 Gromky