Article

2011-12-07 Home Front: Politix

Has Obama Set the Stage for Pearl Harbor All Over Again?

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Sherry 2011-12-07 12:06|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 and the ChiComm president urges his military to prepare for combat.

Posted by jack salami 2011-12-07 12:47|| 2011-12-07 12:47|| Front Page Top

#2 MacArthur (PBUH) said this to Roosevelt after a round of to-the-bone budget cuts: "When we lose the next war, and an American boy, lying in the mud with an enemy bayonet through his belly and an enemy foot on his dying throat, spits out his last curse, I want the name to be not MacArthur, but Roosevelt." Old Mac definitely had a way with words.

But at least Roosevelt's basic patriotism and desire to see his country successful and safe couldn't be doubted. I DEFINITELY won't say the same about the empty-suit, affirmative-action Marxist now defiling the Oval Office. I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind that a weaker, poorer United States is Obama's central objective - don't you see, "social justice" requires that the "global community" be liberated from Evil Amerikkka's malignant influence.

Posted by Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) 2011-12-07 14:44|| 2011-12-07 14:44|| Front Page Top

#3 Within hours, the Japanese also bombed the Philippines in an offensive that would eventually reach the borders of Australia.
--- MacArthur's sayings about lack of preparedness need to be taken with a large amount of salt. He was completely in charge of Philippines defense and had 7 hours of warning (the Japanese couldn't attack until daylight, hence the delay) -- despite this he did NOTHING.
--- US military intelligence knew for years that the Hawaiian Islands were vulnerable to a Japanese carrier-based attack coming from the north with the carriers about 300 miles offshore - -for which the basic intelligence procedure of daily surveillance by aircraft and submarine patrols had been proposed by higher ranking officers, but dismissed as impossible due to lack of men & materials for such surveillance. The type of attack the Empire carried out had been wargamed by the US more than once. That's the only point where the reality matches the basic metaphor of the article.
-- The USA would be better off electing an American as President.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-12-07 15:06|| 2011-12-07 15:06|| Front Page Top

#4 Ron Paul will tell you that it was the sanctions FDR put on Japan b/c the Japanese were slaughtering the Chinese. The Japanese had been modernizing and expansionist since before WWI where they won a major navy battle against Germany. So to an extent maybe so, because all of those things required for the modern war equipment: oil, rubber, wood, food, etc. and FDR thought contributing to the slaughter of the Chinese was bad. They did send covert operators to China. With a large sea and strong navy the USA could feel isolationist.

OK, skipping a lot of what can be argued. I propose that Pearl Harbor was attacked because the USA was strong navy-wise. Japan would not have gone through so much effort if the potential US fleet would not be a problem. In fact, even after Pearl Harbor, the US/Allied fleet went toe-to-toe with the Japanese on won the Guadalcanal campaign despite Pearl Harbor losses.

Something obscure about Guadalcanal. Survivors were toured around the USA to increase war material production. Why, because of the socialist union movement many factory workers did not work on account of the solidarity movement, and it took not only a massive pay off from FDR to get them to work it also took public opinion such as the story of The Fighting Sullivans, so those PR stories did a bit more than sell War Bonds, even then there were a fair number of strikes which FDR had to deal with.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-12-07 17:25|| 2011-12-07 17:25|| Front Page Top

#5 The Japanese had been modernizing and expansionist since before WWI where they won a major navy battle against Germany.

While the Japanese did fight against Germany in WWI, there was hardly any major naval action. Maybe the defeat of the Russian navy at Tsushima in the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905) is the point?

Well before the Japanese expansion in China, both their navy and the American navy had eyed each other as future adversaries and had made plans to address the possibility.

Posted by Procopius2k 2011-12-07 18:13|| 2011-12-07 18:13|| Front Page Top

#6 because of the socialist union movement many factory workers did not work on account of the solidarity movement
I very much doubt that in view of the fact that Japan did indeed attack US territory without declaring war. Competent sources need to be cited to back that up.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-12-07 20:12|| 2011-12-07 20:12|| Front Page Top

#7 Japan would not have gone through so much effort if the potential US fleet would not be a problem
Exactly. Many other contemporary sources back that up.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-12-07 20:13|| 2011-12-07 20:13|| Front Page Top

#8 Ron Paul will tell you that it was the sanctions FDR put on Japan b/c the Japanese were slaughtering the Chinese.
Ron Paul is no authority on US foreign affairs, and indeed seems to know less on that topic than the average Rantburger. At that time imperial Japan was waging a war of aggression on China. IMHO imposing severe economic sanctions on the Empire by the USA was fully warranted even if that brought on a war between Japan & the USA. FDR's problem in the 30's was that the US was not able to conduct such, and public opinion after our WWI expedition was very much against another war unless US territory was threatened.
And by the way, this little story is almost relevant: my uncle Cas of the 78th Pursuit Squadron at Wheeler Field near Pearl Harbor wound up sitting in a foxhole with a buddy around that field for several days after the 78th lost all their aircraft on 7 Dec 1941. They were supposed to defend their field against the expected air assault from Jap paratroopers, which fortunately never happened.
For a while the Hawaiian Islands were utterly vulnerable to Japanese troop landings.
Uncle Cas & his buddy were quite aware of that. They were also quite aware that imperial Japan did not treat POWs very well. The two GI's agreed to save their last bullets for each other, so that they would not be taken alive.
What does Ron Paul tell about that?

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-12-07 20:21|| 2011-12-07 20:21|| Front Page Top

#9 The US was refusing to sell Japan oil because of her actions in China. Japan was down to about three month supply of fuel. Their only option was to take the oil in the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia, today). In order to do that, they had to take out allied naval power in the region. They almost succeeded.

Japan had planned for three attack waves but only carried out two because they got cold feet when they didn't find our carriers. Feeling vulnerable, they left. That missing wave was to take out all the fuel storage on Hawaii. That would have made missions out of Pearl Harbor impossible and the fleet would have had to retreat to San Francisco.

Because the oil on Pearl Harbor was spared, operations with what ships could be mustered and our carriers could continue and repair work could be done on what could be salvaged.

The war was started because of oil and they lost it because of oil. Had they gone ahead with the third attack wave, the war would have lasted much longer and we likely would have lost Hawaii to the Japanese.

Germany invaded Russia for oil, too.

Posted by crosspatch 2011-12-07 21:04|| 2011-12-07 21:04|| Front Page Top

#10 P2K is absolutely right, Japanese expansion went back even further than WWI; could be argued that they started looking a Korea not long after the unification. It was no secret Japan was feeling big, and was just a matter of time before a scrap was at hand, whatever the excuse may be.

I think Ron Paul is at best an isolationist. That sanctions cause wars just baffles me. IMHO the sanctions placed upon Japan forced their hand earlier than they may have wanted to.

AH9418, I bring that out of the book Neptune's Inferno, James Hornfischer, had much about survivors of the USS Juneau specifically, as well as other veterans of the Solomon Campaign as a way to show workers what they were working for. IIRC he even mentioned the (threat of?) National Guard being called into action. His previous works, Ship of Ghosts and Last Stand of the Tin Can Soldiers stand on their own.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-12-07 21:05|| 2011-12-07 21:05|| Front Page Top

#11 Indeed crosspatch...suppose the second to last thing to go through Yamamoto's mind was would it have been worth some of his carriers and experienced pilots to finish the job at Pearl?

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-12-07 22:16|| 2011-12-07 22:16|| Front Page Top

23:52 OldSpook
23:15 Anguper Hupomosing9418
23:15 Anguper Hupomosing9418
23:12 Anguper Hupomosing9418
22:42 Pappy
22:39 tipper
22:28 swksvolFF
22:28 trailing wife
22:19 swksvolFF
22:16 swksvolFF
22:14 trailing wife
21:46 Grease Jith3343
21:37 rammer
21:36 Grease Jith3343
21:33 Super Hose
21:28 rammer
21:20 rjschwarz
21:19 rammer
21:16 Super Hose
21:11 rammer
21:08 Lemuel Unolulet7681
21:05 swksvolFF
21:04 crosspatch
21:02 Super Hose