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2010-06-29 Caribbean-Latin America

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Posted by Fred 2010-06-29 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11128 views ] Top

#1 Hidden behind masks, like terrorists or common criminals. Tells you all you need to know about the fragility of the Mexican state.

Why are we importing an underclass from this failed state? For what conceivable policy goal or social benefit?

Posted by lex 2010-06-29 00:24|| 2010-06-29 00:24|| Front Page Top

#2 The masked fellas are usually Mexican Federal agents or counterterror police, who require security from organized crime unlike soldiers.

You'll see masked police in police departments a lot in the US if they are undercover agents.

Posted by badanov 2010-06-29 00:35|| 2010-06-29 00:35|| Front Page Top

#3 Why are we importing an underclass from this failed state? For what conceivable policy goal or social benefit?

Its for political benefit for the Democrats (all those slaves now on the vote plantation) as well as providing a new 'slave' class for the liberals (and too many conservatives).

Posted by CrazyFool 2010-06-29 01:12|| 2010-06-29 01:12|| Front Page Top

#4 Why are we importing an underclass from this failed state? For what conceivable policy goal or social benefit?

1. it keeps the price of lettuce cheap
2. the economy would fall apart if you ended the institution of ~~slavery~~ illegal immigration
3. the little brown folk are better off than they would be if they were not ~~slaves~~ legal workers
4. they enjoy doing work that the ~~white folk~~ liberal elites won't do
5. it is morally superior to support the institution of ~~slavery~~ illegal immigration.
6. bloodshed and chaos would ensue if you ended the institution of ~~slavery~~ illegal immigration
7. Motherhood and Apple pie would suffer because the apples would rot in the field thus it is for the good of the children
8. it has been and shall always be that way.
9. The barbarians can become civilized through the process (and vote democrat)
10. Without them, who would mow your lawn, clean your house or wipe your butt when you are an infant or old? You Would!!

Posted by Betty Jerenter8589 2010-06-29 05:30|| 2010-06-29 05:30|| Front Page Top

#5 Spoken like a good, progressive troll, Betty.

Do you get your talking points from Journolist?

Posted by Steve White 2010-06-29 07:55|| 2010-06-29 07:55|| Front Page Top

#6 Maybe Betty was being sarcastic.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2010-06-29 08:08|| 2010-06-29 08:08|| Front Page Top

#7 Trying to get the purer Spanish blood ruling caste of Mexico to quit dumping their mestizos y indios upon the US is like trying to get the Chinese to realistically revalue the yuan. In neither case is it in the interest of the party to make any change. The ruling caste wants to retain power no matter what it does to its country. They saw that the population they couldn't/wouldn't take care of because it would have diminished their power and wealth would eventually grow to the point that historically results in revolution. So, they dumped them upon the stupid bleeding heart gringos and petty short sighted yankee businessmen. What the ruling caste failed to comprehend was the consequences of the narco trade which literally threw gasoline on the smoldering embers of their stratified little fiefdom. Money begot power and power becomes competitive, particularly in an environment and culture that is built upon corruption.

Posted by Procopius2k 2010-06-29 08:23|| 2010-06-29 08:23|| Front Page Top

#8 I vote for sarcasm

Posted by Frank G 2010-06-29 08:47|| 2010-06-29 08:47|| Front Page Top

#9 For what conceivable policy goal or social benefit?

Kept their civil war from escalating for about two decades.

Posted by Pappy 2010-06-29 09:03|| 2010-06-29 09:03|| Front Page Top

#10 Sarcastic or blunt? I see a great deal that slavery and the modern "illegal immigration" crap have in common.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2010-06-29 10:02|| 2010-06-29 10:02|| Front Page Top

#11 One thing's for sure, Obama's lawsuit against Arizona proves the federal government has no intention of ever stopping them. Add an order for release of 46,000 prisoners out of California prisons leaves no doubt Washington D.C. does not have the Western United States best interests at heart. Fighting the urge to make fury-laden comments with references to the Civil War..must..not...no...must...not..

Posted by Spinemp the Ruthless1385 2010-06-29 10:33|| 2010-06-29 10:33|| Front Page Top

#12 Have any of you who have commented here ever been to Mexico or know anything whatsoever about Mexicanos, other than what you hear from others? To suggest that people from Mexico are "barbarians" or make racist comments like "little brown people" is shameful... though it seems that many of you have no shame. instead of commenting on a vast group of people and subjects which you clearly have no knowledge of perhaps you should spend time getting to know latinos. They are wonderful, more-often-than-not conservative, christian, family oriented people with rich and wonderful cultures. Unfortunately, without having a real understanding for these people, it is too easy to color an entire group with racial slurs and uneducated stereotypes. In truth, they'd be much more likely to vote republican if people like you didn't scare the bejesus out of them.

Posted by LatinoAmigo 2010-06-29 11:11|| 2010-06-29 11:11|| Front Page Top

#13

Redacted by moderator. Comments may be redacted for trolling, violation of standards of good manners, or plain stupidity. Please correct the condition that applies and try again. Contents may be viewed in the sinktrap. Further violations may result in banning.

Posted by DarthVader 2010-06-29 11:18|| 2010-06-29 11:18|| Front Page Top

#14 Clean up on aisle #13.

Let's keep this civilized, guys.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al 2010-06-29 11:25|| 2010-06-29 11:25|| Front Page Top

#15 I believe the question was "Why are we importing an underclass from this failed state?" not legal vs. illegal. And, the generalizations that I referenced were not indicative of either a legal or illegal context. Nor did I mention anything about my views regarding liberalism, conservatism or the like. But, you have proven through your language and word choices that you are a person who speaks not with knowledge but with anger. Calling me a liberal whatever is just another example of your speaking before you know anything whatsoever about the person in which you address. You have no idea who I am but have already classified me.

Posted by LatinoAmigo 2010-06-29 11:31|| 2010-06-29 11:31|| Front Page Top

#16 Whadda mean, you people?

Think you will find that many of the regulars here know exactly what they are talking about.

Lex, I get what you are saying, but these of people in official garb and department. There are a number of reasons why the outfit would include face protection, one of which is identity protection. You will notice the officer on the far right receiving the distressed child is also in official garb which does not include face protection.

Posted by swksvolFF 2010-06-29 11:33|| 2010-06-29 11:33|| Front Page Top

#17 Have any of you who have commented here ever been to Mexico or know anything whatsoever about Mexicanos, other than what you hear from others?

Mexico's Constitution -

Chapter III

Foreigners

Article 33. Foreigners are those who do not possess the qualifications set forth in Article 30. They are entitled to the guarantees granted by Chapter I, Title I, of the present Constitution; but the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action.

Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.

Posted by Procopius2k 2010-06-29 11:39|| 2010-06-29 11:39|| Front Page Top

#18 Mexico has a very different kind of army than the US does. There is no posse comitatus act and regularly use their military for law enforcement. In recent years the drug war has gone 'Hot' and many special groups involved in anti smuggling have formed to deal with the evolving cartel system.
They wear masks so they don't get shot between the eyes at the grocery store or their kids don't get kidnapped walking home from school. The amount of money flowing from the drug trade is almost unimaginable. A bad guy can do all kinds of harm to a person or a whole family with just a little money in mex.
It's a war, a real war. I don't think most people realize that. When you pull into a small town to buy gas and there is a burned out car full of bullet holes in the parking lot you start to get the idea though.

Posted by bigjim-CA 2010-06-29 12:18|| 2010-06-29 12:18|| Front Page Top

#19 Here is the bottom line LatinoAmigo:

The United States of America is a sovereign state and as such has a right to control is borders and immigration policies. You may have trouble with this concept with all of your testosterone and emotion but we don't. We don't want people from Mexicans conquering our country. We don't want to lose our country. We don't want to be pushed out of our communities like they do in San Diego, Tuscon, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Salinas, etc.

I grew up on the border. I've seen it happen. I know. I've known lots of Mexican-Americans all my life. I know they are decent, hard working, honest, family oriented, fun loving people...that is, the ones that are here legally.

But among them are some real trouble makers, criminals and would be political leaders who really do dream of an expanded Mexico that would include Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado and California. The rest, I'm afraid, with their passivity and lack of sophistication, will go along.

I've been to Mexico. I know, I was just a turista who surfed the beaches and partied on Revolution Avenue in Tijuana. But I saw the poverty, the little kids running around with runny noses and no pants, the little shacks, the dirt yards and dusty streets and I don't want that in San Diego.

You don't like the way things are in Mexico? Fix it. I don't care how. DO NOT bring your problems into MY country. The USA is NOT your lebensraum.

You deny that it's an invasion? You deny the Reconquista? Just because the people come across the border looking for work with their women and children instead of with guns, tanks and warplanes doesn't make it any less of an invasion. Clinton, Bush and Obama are all corrupt bastards. They let it happen so guys like me worry that you may end up actually pulling it off. But, as DarthVader said, ???? You.
Mod change here

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2010-06-29 13:03|| 2010-06-29 13:03|| Front Page Top

#20 Shoulda thought about that F-bomb before I dropped it. Sorry. That's one of the things I deride the KOS Kiddies for. But I firmly believe in the rest.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2010-06-29 13:17|| 2010-06-29 13:17|| Front Page Top

#21 I've been to Mexico, although not recently. I marched in a parade as part of the US contingent during Mexican Independence parade, several decades ago. I've been to Tiajuana, Juarez, Monterrey, and Aguascalientes, as well as Mexico City. I know the grinding poverty, the lack of individual rights, and the pure destitution of most Mestizos. I don't like it, but allowing them unlimited access to the United States is not a good thing. Too many of them believe the US owes them something. Too many of them bring their machismo and lack of common sense to this country, and end up in jail. Too many of them are on welfare. We don't need it, we really can't afford it, and it's not doing a he$$ of a lot of good for us or Mexico. We need to secure the southern border, especially now with the growing drug war there. Mexico needs to do whatever it takes to stop the poverty in Mexico, not export it to the US.

Posted by Old Patriot 2010-06-29 14:30|| 2010-06-29 14:30|| Front Page Top

#22 Not really sure what any of the responses to my post have to do with calling people who you don't know "Barbarians" and "little brown people" but OK. If my civilized comments warranted at least 2 people saying nasty things to me, I'm left to wonder what the responses would have been had I written in as angry a fashion as some who have followed me. In any case, bigotry is bigotry and it does little but devalue any legitimate argument that could otherwise be made. Let's not forget that the Mexican Army has crossed our borders too... remember hurricane Katrina? They came in sizable numbers to the aid of our citizens. Additionally, I am a born and bread US citizen and not from Mexico as some have mistakenly presumed. The core of my argument was not to presume things about people that you don't know but it doesn't look like I'm going to make any headway with some who haven't properly read my post(s).

Posted by LatinoAmigo 2010-06-29 14:35|| 2010-06-29 14:35|| Front Page Top

#23 swksvolFF, I didn't say "you people". I did however say "people like you" in direct reference to the person making the racist comments. If you are among them then it applies to you but otherwise, it was not directed at you.

Old Patriot... well said. I couldn't agree more. You sound like someone with a solid understanding of the Mexican/ American dilemma.

If we lived in an impoverished country that exists right next to the greatest country in the world, I'm sure we'd be tempted to uproot our families and trespass in an effort to improve our lives. Not saying that is the best or worst course of action... just saying that it would be very tempting. I have a baby girl and I imagine that I'd do just about anything to make sure she had the best life I could give her. It is a tough situation, but ultimately one that will be solved through understanding and cooperation with all involved.

Posted by LatinoAmigo 2010-06-29 14:47|| 2010-06-29 14:47|| Front Page Top

#24 You're playing the race card. That is deliberate distortion and obfuscation because you don't want to face the fact that our country is being invaded. I am not a racist. I have friends who are of Mexican descent who are citizens of the United States. As for barbarians: I call Iowans barbarians because there are places in that state where you can't get real butter for your pancakes. And face it, a lot of people coming across that border tend to be short and brown. It's a fact. It doesn't mean we hate them. We just don't want them coming across the border. I don't care if these people are red, white, blue, black, brown or green. It's my country. Not theirs. Race has nothing to do with it. Nationality, culture, language and politics have everything to do with it.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2010-06-29 15:12|| 2010-06-29 15:12|| Front Page Top

#25 "It's my country. Not theirs."

I think that Native Americans (you know... the OTHER "little brown people" probably said the same thing. I wonder... do you consider George Washington to be a "barbarian". Do you think that the Europeans who first came to America, ultimately in search of personal and religious freedoms, should have stayed in their own country and made it better... instead of "invading" someone else's land? Maybe that was too long ago to matter and maybe in a couple hundred years these arguments we are having now will be too old to matter.

Posted by LatinoAmigo 2010-06-29 15:24|| 2010-06-29 15:24|| Front Page Top

#26 If we lived in an impoverished country that exists right next to the greatest country in the world, I'm sure we'd be tempted to uproot our families and trespass in an effort to improve our lives.

Yes, during the 19th and early 20th Century, millions upon millions did that coming to a country for opportunity and a future for their families when we had wide open spaces and resources to exploit. They often resided in specified neighborhoods be they ghettos or little Chinas. However, while teaching their children to be proud of their heritage, they expected their children to become Americans and not in the socialist internationale collective form. Look again at the post how Mexico treats foreigners in their Article 33. The sovereign nation of Mexico doesn't book a large foreign population within its borders. From their own document, we are not all collectively Americans.

When those 19th and early 20th Century immigrants came, they did not insist in changing America to suit them but understood they were to melt in with the rest of the crowd, each giving up loyalty to prior tribe, clan, or blood and giving a new loyalty to the new community. I could never imaging a large parade of Americans in Monterrey marching in the streets, as Mexicans did in Chicago, waving American flags demanding the host nation alter its laws and enforcement for the benefit to their blood and kin.

If any identifiable group, to include Americans, perpetrated crimes of murder, assault, robbery, rape et al against a host population at the level America now experiences in its midst, the popular outrage would be untenable for any government to tolerate. Here, we are betrayed at nearly ever attempt to just remove the criminal and recidivists.

As I've posted before, this is the result of the institutionalized social stratification and racism that marks Mexican society between the ruling caste that has failed to develop Mexico and its citizens. They've avoid internal revolution up till now, by dumping a large portion of their population upon the Americans to deal with it. Just take 1950 as a start point. Compare South Korea with Mexico. South Korea was basically destroyed in the Korean War in the early 50s. With a fraction of the population and geographic area, very limited arable land and natural resources, South Korea today ranks round 13th in GDP. Mexico which has far greater lands, resources, and population and didn't suffer similar effects of such a war, is around 11th. All that potential has been squandered by those who have own and operate Mexico.

Why should the people in Mexico change? They have aiders and abettors in America who'll let them keep doing what they do. And once the illegals get in, what is the motivation to change things back home? It's not their problem anymore, because they're be protected by the bleeding heart suckers and the quick buck businessman. If you've been someplace where things worked and then returned home, maybe you'd be more motivated to make changes that you know work than simply accept what's been done for generation after generation.

Either you recognize the right to sovereignty or you don't. Fundamentally, the issue is if you have no loyalty to me as a fellow citizen, then I owe no loyalty to you and its every man, women, and child for themselves.

Posted by Procopius2k 2010-06-29 15:36|| 2010-06-29 15:36|| Front Page Top

#27
You know what, Latino Amigo, you are not an amigo. A lot of people probably fall for your 'native people' spiel. I am here to tell you the jig is up.

"It's my country not theirs" That is correct. This is the United States of America. If you don't respect her as such, and respect her laws, and this nation, leave. I really do not care if you are latino, asian, jewish, black, native america. If you stay on here, but harbor designs on an overthrow, you deserve nothing you are getting here. You would leave if you had any honor.

BTW, native peoples have been displaced throughout History. It doesn't give every displace person a claim on modern day land. If that were true, half of eastern Europe and Japan are in the hands of those who kicked someone out. If every piece of land worldwide was returned to its origins, there would be total war. It has no bearing on the sovereignty of the current times. Aborignal Inu's with some Caucasoid/Russian blood once occupied the Northern Island of Japan. Should they invade mainland Japan and take over? By your logic (which doesn't fly) they are entitled. Wrong. You aren't entitled to anything. What god giveth, God can taketh away.

Posted by Dinah Soares 2010-06-29 15:38|| 2010-06-29 15:38|| Front Page Top

#28 Dude! Amigo! Let go of the LBP's and barbarians, please.

Go back and read Betty's post (have a glass of wine first -- I recommend Pinot Grigio or Pinot Noir). She was being sarcastic...dry in an almost British style, dawling.

You sound reasonable in a testy sorta way -- take a deep breath. You could add a lot here.

Posted by Gabby 2010-06-29 15:40|| 2010-06-29 15:40|| Front Page Top

#29 ..I think that Native Americans..

The one's of myth or reality. The ones who competed for territory and resources as any group does? The tribes that conquered their neighbors to extract slaves and sacrifices? The ones who kicked their neighbor's butts to sent them into less desirable lands? The only difference was that the 'new' guy competing had better technology and social organization skills to stay around longer than the earlier Viking visitors. The Romans did it to the Gauls, the Goths did it to the Romans, the Huns did it to the Goths. It's more fun doing it to others than getting it done to yourself. That's history, not morality. The victor writes the history, ask the Carthaginians.

Ask the natives in New Mexico what they think about the Spanish. Their grievances go back to the conquistadors. Let them recite how the church employed the Spanish and Mexicans authorities to brutally punish them for practicing their native religions. Ask them about the Mexican slavers who hauled their people south. You want to see some animosity, ask the Acoma.

Posted by Procopius2k 2010-06-29 15:50|| 2010-06-29 15:50|| Front Page Top

#30 I think that Native Americans probably said the same thing. No, they didn't, not the vast majority living in the western hemisphere in 1492. They had zero conception of the eastern hemisphere, the rest of the world. There were some native nations with a vague idea of territorial sovereignty, which had always been gained at the expense of some other native nation their warriors conquered, enslaved, &/or ate. Had those native nations killed & ate every single explorer who landed in the western hemisphere, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, you know, it didn't. happen. that. way.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2010-06-29 16:03|| 2010-06-29 16:03|| Front Page Top

#31 Gabby, thank you for your response. I don't feel testy and I appreciate humor as much as the next person but it never sounds/ is humorous to me when racism is involved... even in sarcasm. Just my opinion though. In any case, my initial and subsequent posts were meant to say, in as many words as I thought I did, not to judge a book by its cover. So far, I've been called an F*ing liberal (which I never said I was)... I'm not a friend (I guess because I have a diverse opinion) and I've been told that if I don't like things the way they are here that I should leave - even though others are suggesting that if the Mexican people don't like it in Mexico then they should stay and fix their own country and NOT leave. And, for the record, since I am of Scottish and German heritage mostly and my family has been here for more than 5 generations, I think will stay). [Latino Amigo... again meant to point out that you shouldn't judge by a cover or a screenname]. Perhaps 'Amigo de Latino' would have been more to the point.

Dinah, you make good points and I am not suggesting that we let everyone come in illegally, but I would just think that there would be more sympathy and understanding. These are not just criminals coming across the border, they are people risking and leaving everything that they know out of desperation. It is easy to look down on someone and tell them to go away. It is easy to say that immigration problems are Obama's fault and that he wants them to become slaves and vote for him (actually it isn't very easy to say that in my conscious but apparently for some it is) and it is generally easy to dismiss people who we view as a threat to our culture, economy, etc. Since people have brought up God though... when did Jesus ever say that poor desperate people should be turned away? Have you applied for entry FROM Mexico or El Salvador... many die in Mexico and El Salvador waiting.

Just open your minds and your hearts a liiiitle bit. That's all I'm saying and I'll end it there before I cause any more outrage among my own fellow Americans - who I live next door too, who I care for, who I respect and who I would stand by and have stood by... BUT... I have sympathy for all people regardless of where they were born.

Bring on the Pinot Grigio!

Posted by LatinoAmigo 2010-06-29 16:15|| 2010-06-29 16:15|| Front Page Top

#32 "If we lived in an impoverished country"

And who the hell impoverished that country, LA?

Here's a hint - it weren't us, so don't bring your problems here.

I'd suggest that Mexicans start defending themselves (guns may be illegal there, but that apparently doesn't stop the cartels - why let it stop anyone else?). Mexico has plenty of natural resources, and people willing to work - it doesn't have to be an "impoverished country."

Yes, it's easier for me to say it than for Mexicans to do it, but bringing your problems here won't fix Mexico.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2010-06-29 16:24|| 2010-06-29 16:24|| Front Page Top

#33 Lets face it, sympathy and understanding =

Money.
Schooling.
Health Care.
Jobs.
Jail Cells.
Lost tax revenues not being paid.
Law enforcement.

By illegals, whose tabs get picked up by poor, middle, and upper class Americans. How about some sympathy for struggling Americans, Amigo de Latino?

A poor broke family man American to an illegal Mexican: Hey illegal Juan, can you send my Johnny to school, pay for his health care, maybe give me your Job? Didn't think so.

We can't spare the charity like we may have been able to in the past. Cheers.

Posted by Dinah Soares 2010-06-29 16:27|| 2010-06-29 16:27|| Front Page Top

#34 ...when did Jesus ever say that poor desperate people should be turned away?

When did Jesus ever say "envy thy neighbor's wealth and steal thy neighbor's wealth"?

Posted by Procopius2k 2010-06-29 16:38|| 2010-06-29 16:38|| Front Page Top

#35 "Just open your minds and your hearts a liiiitle bit. "

More like wallet. I had relatives almost die in concentration camps while awaiting passage out of Germany in the early part of the last century. They still came here LEGALLY. Sorry, the sympathy aspect is beside the point. Can't go for that.

Posted by Dinah Soares 2010-06-29 16:39|| 2010-06-29 16:39|| Front Page Top

#36 Yes, what is the one commandment about covetousness? J/K. Its this:

You shall not covet your neighbors house; you shall not covet your neighbors wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Posted by Dinah Soares 2010-06-29 16:41|| 2010-06-29 16:41|| Front Page Top

#37 I think the 'Little Brown Folks' reference was a sarcastic saying about how the Liberals in this country (and again too many 'republicans') view mexicans. "Oh poor little brown people need someone to take care of them and feed them and wipe their little tushes because they are too stupid or poor or Barbaric to do it for themselves.".

Again that appears to be what too many Liberals think - not conservatives.

Just like the way Liberals treat Blacks with 'Affirmative Action' and Quota programs and the like. To get them addicted to the government entitlements and hooked on the public teat so that they will now, and forever, vote Democrat.

Posted by CrazyFool 2010-06-29 16:46|| 2010-06-29 16:46|| Front Page Top

#38 When was Jesus in charge of border security?

I musta missd a Gospel...

Posted by mojo 2010-06-29 16:47|| 2010-06-29 16:47|| Front Page Top

#39 So should illegal aliens who (by definition) are law-beakers and have little respect for the rule of law, be give a place in line ahead of the person (Mexican, San Salvadorian, Filipino, etc... ) who has been waiting for many years to come here legally? I say no.

You want to help out desperate Mexicans (or better yet Foreigners) who come here? Fine - do it legally and by the rule of law - not in spite of it. Setup a program, a screening process, etc...

Or invade Mexico and make it the 51'st - 57th state.... (That was a JOKE!).

Posted by CrazyFool 2010-06-29 16:55|| 2010-06-29 16:55|| Front Page Top

#40 I always love when illegal immigrant apologists run the Jesus Comments -- maybe you think Jesus would like folks to give charity at the point of a Roman spear? If we're talking quotes then you would agree that God helps those who help themselves - so Mexicans should get off their collective butts and fix Mexico or, have the cajones to die trying.

At any rate and more relative to the argument, re-read the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Const. As much as I revere the teachings of Jesus they are irrevalent to this discussion. John McCain already tried the "they are all God's children" angle of which I could've punched him in the face for being so stupid.

Posted by Broadhead6 2010-06-29 17:00|| 2010-06-29 17:00|| Front Page Top

#41 When was Jesus in charge of border security?

Lol. Well, Border Patrol may employ a Jesus, a hardworking American, here legally, and responsible for upholding border security. Many legal Mexican American residents themselves agree with laws.

Posted by Dinah Soares 2010-06-29 17:01|| 2010-06-29 17:01|| Front Page Top

#42 Have any of you who have commented here ever been to Mexico or know anything whatsoever about Mexicanos, other than what you hear from others?

You can understand why I thought you were addressing the site in general?

Though they were about to have a baby, Jesus' parents didn't break into anyone's house.

Mojo, see Book of Armaments.

Posted by swksvolFF 2010-06-29 17:17|| 2010-06-29 17:17|| Front Page Top

#43 At any rate and more relative to the argument, re-read the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Const. As much as I revere the teachings of Jesus they are irrevalent to this discussion. John McCain already tried the "they are all God's children" angle of which I could've punched him in the face for being so stupid.

Agreed about McCain Broadhead6, but the last time I read the first amendment, religious speech is DOUBLY protected, both by being religious AND speech.

I am amazed at how people pretend to talk about Jesus supporting government programs funded by forced taxes: Jesus was tempted three times in the wilderness, and the big one, Satan offering all the kingdoms of the world to him, is EXACTLY the temptation to use secular power to achieve "good" ends. Jesus said "NO", but too many "christians" have said "YES". Dense though they were, the DISCIPLES were smart enough, when faced with 5000 hungry men, to bring food to Jesus to multiply HIMSELF when JESUS said,
"YOU feed them!", not run to the Romans or Herod. The lesson is clear: if you're worried about feeding the people, YOU FEED THEM! If you can't do it, run to God to do it, and if you FEEEEEEEL the need to rely on mammon's ways, THEN ADMIT you're f'ing powerless to REALLY do it "the way Jesus did".

It took centuries for the Church to learn that they couldn't trust to government to replace their inability to get people saved. It took even longer for the Church to learn that they couldn't trust to government to replace their inablity to make people moral. The church NOW has to learn that they can't trust to government to replace their inablity to SERVE others or make people SERVE others.
----
In my mind, the real sticking point in this "debate" is the INTERNALIZATION of the Rule of Law: It is one thing to make a law, but as the non-enforcement of the Immigration laws demonstrates, it is quite another to have it OBEYED. When Americans obey the law without being told or watched or threatened, they have internalized the attitude that the Law, not men, rules. When Illegal aliens (and Congressmen taped taking bribes) break the law when it suits them, then they have NOT internalized "Rule of Law". It is THIS internalization that has kept America from becoming a police state. Liberals may poo-poo this, preferring to SAY that "fly over americans" are seething caldrons of hate and bigotry, BUT THEY ACTUALLY COUNT ON THIS: They KNOW they can say "Don't take the law into your own hands!" to Americans, and TRUST that Americans won't lynch them. They KNOW that saying "Don't come into this country illegally" to foreigners is wasting breath, so they GAME the system, catering to those who won't listen to them to win them over with goodies they extort by taxes from Americans, and whom they seek to silence by intimating (through denunciations of the Tea Party) that asking for lower taxes is "being a smart-ass".

Posted by Ptah 2010-06-29 20:36|| 2010-06-29 20:36|| Front Page Top

#44 In truth, they'd be much more likely to vote republican if people like you didn't scare the bejesus out of them

Amigo, your heart's in the right place but your head's too soft. The essence of the problem is that a cynical Mexican elite, abetted by a cynical vote-seeking US political elite and US sweatshop owners, has decided to export its failures northward. Now, it's true that this is what Ireland and many other nations did a century, or two centuries, ago, to their detriment and to America's (eventual) benefit, but there are two huge differences between the American labor market of 2010 and that of 1910 or 1850:

1) there is no shortage of unskilled labor in 2010-- in fact, there's a surplus of labor

2) a huge welfare state has grown up in the last 40 years, creating a major drain on state budgets

Despite the complete horse$hit, the fibs 'n' fairytales, constantly peddled about how "we need their [unskilled, semiliterate/illiterate] labor," in point of fact we need scarcity in the low-end labor market. Otherwise we will continue to see real wages FALL, as they have for going on four decades now, on the low end of the labor market.

The solution to the problem-- both the compassionate and the hard-headed solution-- is to help working families on BOTH sides of the border.

This begins with a points-based, skills-oriented immigration policy in the US that closes the border to both legal and illegal immigrants who lack education and advanced skills.

The next step is to end the loopholes in NAFTA that allow King Corn in the US, specifically Cargill and ADM and other mega-agrobusinesses, to devastate the low-end Mexican rural sector by dumping US corn into Mexico. It's unbelievable, I know, but it's been happening since 1996. Sort of like dumping rice into Japan. Only the Mexicans would tolerate such a $hitty deal-- precisely because of the cynicism referred to above (cf exporting failure, etc).

The third step is to tell the Mexicans the only way to halt their slide into still mroe poverty, chaos and revolution is to educate their people and follow the path upward that the other, former exporter-of-poverty carved so successfully in the last decade of the last century: Ireland. By investing heavily in education, and attracting white collar offshore, actually nearshore, jobs from US multinationals in finance, pharma and software, Ireland turned itself from a basket case into one of the wealthiest nations in the world-- in one generation.

If the Irish can do it, so can Mexico. We need to help them, but the best help here is tough love: take away the human-export safety valve.

Posted by lex 2010-06-29 20:40|| 2010-06-29 20:40|| Front Page Top

#45 Also, there is no way that most uneducated, unskilled latinos will ever vote Republican. For any unskilled person in this new economic environment is not through hard work and entrepreneurship. It's by glomming onto a public sector union. That's by far the best combo available to a semiliterate unskilled worker when you have double-digit employment on the one hand and a huge and swelling, La Raza-friendly public sector movement on the other.

The city of San Jose recently decided as part of its budget-cutting efforts they would outsource janitorial services. What were they paying janitors? Reportedly, over $40 an hour. Where in the private sector can any unskilled worker make north of $80,000 per year?

TO return to the original premise: why the hell would any unskilled latino favor the party of free enterprise when the party of Big Gummint is offering him $80,000/yr, now, with early retirement and gold-plated healthcare? The GOP will be lucky to get north of 10% of unskilled latino votes in this environment.

Oh, and before you say, "Education's the path upward for illiterate campesinos in the US," that's the Mexican state's problem, not California's. We can't turn that one around here. Over 75% of Mexican/"hispanic non-white" kids in CA public skills are failing (per STAR test data). More than half of the Mexican/hispanic kids drop out in LA and other major city school districts. And they're now more than HALF the public schoolpopulation int he state.

Broken, irretrievably. Can't fix. No amount of "they're God's children" rhetoric and increased school spending will turn this around.

Bottom line: low-end America has become Mexified. That process needs to be halted in its tracks if we are not to see the rest of US society end up looking like a latin oligarchy.

Posted by lex 2010-06-29 20:58|| 2010-06-29 20:58|| Front Page Top

#46 Unfortunatly it's a bit too late Lex. In fact it may have been too late 10 years ago.

Posted by Besoeker 2010-06-29 21:07|| 2010-06-29 21:07|| Front Page Top

#47 For every illegal Mexican you deport (destined to return) you have 5 disloyal Mexican-American traitors (destined to never leave) who continuously trash the U.S., glorify Mexico, and create an unsafe environment for women and children everywhere they settle. That being said, we need to do our best to get along because I'm not giving up Mexican food, Mexican women, or the chance to hire 3 Mexicans outside Home Depot to paint my apartment when I move out (so I can get the deposit back, of course). Damn, I think I'm turning Mexi-can, I think I'm turning Mexi-can, I really think so... doo doo doo doo(sung to the tune of "I think I'm turning Japanese")

Posted by Vortigern Omerelet7487 2010-06-29 21:57|| 2010-06-29 21:57|| Front Page Top

#48 You lack scruples, are part of the problem that is
eroding the social fabric. And like to be as womanizer. Go away

Posted by Cleremble the Prolific6958 2010-06-29 22:14|| 2010-06-29 22:14|| Front Page Top

#49 You lack scruples, are part of the problem that is
eroding the social fabric. And like to be as womanizer. Go away

You lack a sense of humor...

Posted by badanov 2010-06-29 23:21|| 2010-06-29 23:21|| Front Page Top

#50 Since people have brought up God though... when did Jesus ever say that poor desperate people should be turned away? Have you applied for entry FROM Mexico or El Salvador... many die in Mexico and El Salvador waiting.

That Call To Jesus stuff only works on Christians, dear LatinoAmigo, so you're on pretty thin ground with the Rantburg crowd -- lots of atheists, agnostics, Jews, and a diversity of other faiths. A number of us are even Liberals and Democrats, although all are warmongers. ;-) ("Jackson Democrats" is the old term for that view of things.) Also a bunch of Hispanic-Americans, legal ones as far as I can tell, although that set intersects with some of the others. On the other hand, you did hit a nerve with Ptah, who has spent a lot of his free time over the decades ministering in nearby prisons, and that didn't quite go the way you intended, either. One needs to be careful flinging assumptions at new sites, my dear.

As for those poor, dear, illegal Mexicans having to wait for decades for their visa number to reach the head of the queue... I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. You see, my mother and many of her relatives were in that position in about 1936 in Germany. Mama and her parents ended up spending a portion of the next decade in hiding in Holland, relying on the kindness of strangers. You can read about it in the Holocaust Museum in D.C., if you happen to wander by one day, or in Yad Vashem. My grandmother's memoir is archived in both places. I needn't mention, I'm sure, how it was that my mother and her parents were able to execute their visa in 1947 instead of a great many decades later.

Let the Mexicans be grateful they can spend their waiting decades peacefully at home with their families, embedded in their communities. All they are suffering from is poverty, as do a great many others around the world, many in much worse straits than they. Let them be grateful they don't suffer the poverty of the North Korean re-education camps or being a member of the wrong tribe in Zimbabwe or a Kurd in Turkey.

You seem a kind-hearted man, LatinoAmigo, and clearly mean well. It's just that you haven't quite thought things through, my dear.

Posted by trailing wife 2010-06-29 23:35|| 2010-06-29 23:35|| Front Page Top

00:00 JosephMendiola
23:56 trailing wife
23:51 trailing wife
23:51 bman
23:40 trailing wife
23:39 JosephMendiola
23:35 trailing wife
23:31 twobyfour
23:27 ed
23:26 twobyfour
23:24 JosephMendiola
23:21 badanov
23:18 ed
23:18 ed
23:13 JosephMendiola
23:05 newc
22:56 rjschwarz
22:38 crosspatch
22:31 Procopius2k
22:14 Cleremble the Prolific6958
21:57 Vortigern Omerelet7487
21:54 Frank G
21:52 Goober Crealet3411
21:47 tipover