Article

2008-12-17 -Lurid Crime Tales-

Timeout redefined: Children forced into cell-like school seclusion rooms

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Posted by gorb 2008-12-17 14:35|| || Front Page|| [5 views ] Top

#1 Time out rooms should not exist in any schools.

BUT there are many quite a few mentally handicapped/retarded (PC=Special Needs) that should NOT be mixed with the general school population. It takes a special person and individual attention to deal with them and a little training cannot substitute for the aptitude required (I am not one of those special people). In addition there are some children that should, even if in "special needs" classes, be sent home immediately and perhaps permanently (a normal student would be ejected from the school permanently, first occurrence).

In many cases the parents are in denial about how their child acts with others. In some cases they ARE the problem. And the Politically Correct schools, teachers and educational policies don't help either.

Summary: No easy solutions, each case unique.

Posted by tipover 2008-12-17 15:54|| 2008-12-17 15:54|| Front Page Top

#2 Time out rooms should not exist in any schools.

But these aren't just any schools we're talking about, they're public schools. As long as public schools get more and more unionized and PC you can expect to see more of this. I daresay that there are NO solitary cells in parochial or traditional independent schools (excluding those private schools that specialize in troubled, drug or special needs children)

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-17 16:13|| 2008-12-17 16:13|| Front Page Top

#3 This is an issue for which there is no black and white answer. The reality is that the schools are being asked to handle a difficult, near-impossible job which is getting worse, and asked to do it with fewer and fewer tools.

Here's the actuality. These special needs kids have no business in a normal classroom. Sorry for those parents with special needs kids, but it's true. It's hard enough teaching "normal" kids, most of whom don't come from intact families these days and many of whom don't speak English as a first language.

Add in the facts that many "normal" children are out of control and come from situations not conducive to learning, parents cannot/are not allowed to discipline their children, and the abysmally low pay most front-line classroom teachers get, and we actually get a better result that we deserve. That's not saying it's good by any means, it's just better than we deserve given the problems we force it to deal with.

If you have children now, you're far better off to home-school them or send them to private schools. The public school system has failed because our culture has failed due to trying to be too inclusive. We're trying to take the worst and make them like the best. What we end up with is the worst being slightly better and the best being bored sick.

Most of the public school teachers I know are like the cops I know; they're just slogging ahead one day at a time, under horrible rules, trying to get to that desperately desired carrot of retirement. They've long since given up on trying to improve anything. They're just trying to survive themselves.

Oh, and if you think I'm cynical about the system I'm describing, you should listen to them. They make me sound optimistic as Pollyanna.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-17 18:11|| 2008-12-17 18:11|| Front Page Top

#4 What if the US had used such techniques at Gitmo?

Posted by Richard Aubrey">Richard Aubrey 2008-12-17 18:46|| 2008-12-17 18:46|| Front Page Top

#5 This is an issue for which there is no black and white answer.

Yes there is. Get rid of government run schools. If you want to subsidize education, issue vouchers.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-17 19:09|| 2008-12-17 19:09|| Front Page Top

#6 I worked in Social Services - Residential Treatment for youth for over 7 years. Quiet rooms or seclusion rooms are used regularly for the most violent youth. Holds are also applied when necessary. Training and strict rules are followed. When a child is secluded, the child is not have their shoes taken and a proper search is preformed. When in seclusion the child is constantly supervised (and I mean at all times and documented). An emergency specialist is immediately called to make sure the child is doing okay. In addition, approval is required for any seclusion over an hour. I am not defending seclusion rooms but it is sadly necessary for violent children with severe mental health problems. Tragedies like the one reported are rare but with the conditions of most places like treatment centers and alternative schools. It is surprising there are not more. After my time in treatment centers I would rather dig ditches. I advise any parent to avoid it if they can.

Posted by Jeff Sharpless">Jeff Sharpless 2008-12-17 19:11|| 2008-12-17 19:11|| Front Page Top

#7 Jolutch - Just a quick question... If the special needs kids aren't allowed in normal classrooms, when will they learn how to interact with other people?

I had in one of my classes as a child a girl who could not speak, walk or hear who only drooled. She was about 6 years older than I was. I agree, she should not have been in the classroom - but they took her out for most of class time anyhow.

But for children who are hyperactive, or have a syndrome on the higher end of the Autism spectrum (by which I mean being able to speak and not shriek like some kids I used to babysit for) or similar problems, why shouldn't they be allowed in the classroom? Sure, they often need to go out for some extra help, but they won't make any friends, learn how to deal with other people, and putting an autistic kid on the same level as a deaf-mute is going to ruin that autistic kid's life. Saying to an intelligent child - problem or not - that they are are not allowed even the semblance of being normal will give them the message that they are to always be excluded from society.

Homeschooling as an option? Well, my mother was a saint when she home schooled my autistic sister for a number of years. But that wonderful girl is now in public school, sometimes disruptive, but she has friends, activities, she blossomed by being in an environment where she could try to be NORMAL.
Private school as an option? I'm glad you have money. If you have a child with disabilities, you can't afford private school. Think about therapy costs etc. You think insurance covers that sort of thing? The reason most of these kids are in the public schools are because the parents can't afford to send them anywhere else. Do you honestly think that any parent wants to send their child to a school where they won't learn well? No. Teachers are trained and paid by the government. Its their damn job. I know they are overworked, but this is something that needs to change, and it won't be changed by eliminating an entire section of the student body for being different.

Sorry for the length, I feel strongly about this one. Blanket phrases of "those special needs kids" piss the hell out of me.

Posted by sjb 2008-12-17 19:14|| 2008-12-17 19:14|| Front Page Top

#8 Teachers are trained and paid by the government. Its their damn job.

Teachers are most certainly not trained to deal with the variety of challenges presented by special needs children. They're barely trained to deal with mainstream kids. And the pay from the government ain't all that great. That's one reason the quality of teachers has declined for the last 40 years.

The reason most of these kids are in the public schools are because the parents can't afford to send them anywhere else.

False. They have always been in public schools. But before they were segregated into their own classes with appropriately trained teachers or in large enough districts, specialized facilities. But their parents wanted them mainstreamed so they could learn how to interact with other people. It's been a failure for the schools and the rest of the students. Whether it's been of benefit to the special needs kids varies, I'm sure. But any benefit has not been worth the cost to everyone else.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-17 19:26|| 2008-12-17 19:26|| Front Page Top

#9 Sorry Nimble, I wasn't quite clear enough. long day...

Teachers are not trained to restrain children, to change the diapers of an incontinent child, to do all of the things that extremely special needs children need. They are (or at least I assume, from my own very extensive experience) trained to deal with somewhat disruptive children and children who have some special needs. Most S.N. kids are not in the classroom all the time -they get sent to the specialists.
I am not saying that they should never be in special classes. I am saying that it is ridiculous to lump them all in one category and say that teachers are not able to handle it.
I also feel that teachers ought to be trained more. I am definitely not disputing the fact that most of them are not trained enough for the highly specialized cases or that the child should stay in class while being disruptive.

There are private schools that deal with this. But as I said, parents can't afford this. I am saying this from the standpoint of someone who knows a LOT of S.N kids and families.
And you cannot seriously be telling me that the "specialized classed" from several decades ago that put the dyslexic in the deaf-mute were good or had enough teachers. The teachers certainly weren't well trained, that's for damn sure.

I don't feel that having an autistic child in your class would be detrimental to the other students. Perhaps some of them - like many I know - could learn how to be better people because of it. And yes, I did have special needs kids in my classes (I think I may be a bit younger than you are)and they were treated well by the other kids and turned out the better for it all.

Posted by sjb 2008-12-17 19:41|| 2008-12-17 19:41|| Front Page Top

#10 FOXNEWS did a segment last nite on the recent MIDDLETON, FLORIDA BOYS REFORMATORY SCHOOL controversy, on whether 31 young boys buried in the school's old graveyard died naturally, or were covert victims of Admin Abuse = Malice
as claimed by adult survivors ["The White House" grounds building being allegedly used for student punishment/murder]???

Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-12-17 19:55|| 2008-12-17 19:55|| Front Page Top

#11 I think it is tough to generalize about SN kids because they vary so much. While the segregated classes of decades ago had problems, so has today's mainstreaming. Just as mental institutions of the past had their problems, I'm not real comfortable with the alternative we've come up with known as the homeless. The common denominator is that people want to hand the problem to the government to deal with and it is not something government is designed to deal with at all well.

My bias is to see folks with these sorts of problems not put in care of the state, but for the state provide financial assistance to the family so that the family and the person can decide what service provider to work with and have the right to change service providers when dissatisfied. I suspect there would be a lot of religiously based service providers, just as there are for education and elder care. They seem to be able to act more responsively to the needs of individuals than government agencies can.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-17 19:58|| 2008-12-17 19:58|| Front Page Top

#12 Nimble - I completely agree with you on that. For those people who cannot possibly live by themselves or are a harm to themselves, well, I don't think anyone has ever found a good solution.

My main problem is that the state institutions often become abusive and neglectful places where disabled people are left to sit and stare at a wall until they die, covered in sores.

However, if families can prove themselves competent (note: I said competent)they should do it themselves. Their family member will likely receive much better care. I have seen good examples of this, but I have also seen examples of people who need to be in institutions of some type being taken care of by people simply capable or intelligent enough to do it who end up exactly like the bad state institutions. They make you cry to see it.

Posted by sjb 2008-12-17 20:10|| 2008-12-17 20:10|| Front Page Top

#13 Agreed that the government doesn't do it well and power should lie with the family. One thing we have to understand is that we should be working to improve least worst solutions, not create perfect ones. Because we're far, far from that.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-17 20:15|| 2008-12-17 20:15|| Front Page Top

#14 SJB,

It's not fair to the children who CAN perform to dilute or outright remove their chance at education simply because of the needs of a small number who take a disproportionate amount of time.

You're one of the affected. You don't like my position. I can see why. However, you seem to think that the rights of your SN kid trump the rights of the other children to a good education. If the good of society as a whole is our aim, you're wrong.

As I said earlier, the public schools are a disaster and it's the problems they're being asked to deal with that they're not structured to handle that are making them so. Anyone who can extricate their child from this morass is well advised, and certainly wise, to do so. It will get worse before it gets better.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-17 21:56|| 2008-12-17 21:56|| Front Page Top

#15
"Teachers are trained and paid by the government. Its their damn job. I know they are overworked, but this is something that needs to change, and it won't be changed by eliminating an entire section of the student body for being different."

Yes, it will. It's that much less of a problem the teachers have to deal with when they're already overburdened with problems to begin with. Wonder why all the good teachers leave? A lot of it has to do with the attitude of people like you. Every time I see this attitude I'm reminded of the axiom "Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do the job."

You don't pay any more in taxes than the average person does for their kid to be in school but you expect a heck of a lot more in services just because your kid has problems. Guess what? Those problems belong to YOU and YOUR FAMILY, not the taxpayers. Should the taxpayers choose to help you, that's their business but it's not your RIGHT to demand that help. When it gets to the point that it IS your right to demand that help, that's when the people without your problems start thinking it's time to bail out of this situation where they receive a Hell of a lot less than they pay in. BTW, your attitude of "I'm entitled to help and I damn well want it now" makes it awfully hard to be sympathetic to whatever justification their actually is in your argument.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-17 22:07|| 2008-12-17 22:07|| Front Page Top

#16 JM, you are damn right that me and my family are going to (and already have) demanded that the local education hoo-hahs provide the educational services my niece needs when it is time for her to go to school (she has Down Syndrome).

We have been paying into the system for decades, even before me and my brother had children, through our property and other taxes. Do not go there about how we are a bunch of leeches on the public purse. How f--king dare you imply that we are a bunch of freeloaders!!!

And, FWIW, she DOES have the legal right to demand that they provide her with those services. There are pages and pages of court opinions proving that she does. You may not like it, and your friends in edumacayshun may have to do some extra work. At least you get time off for vacations and "in-service". The families don't.

I am so bloody sorry that her existence is an inconvenience to society. I am sorry that you have to look at her and not see perfection. I am sorry that we won't just sit there quietly and accept whatever meager crumbs that someone decides they will toss her way, and that we have the absolute gall to insist that she be treated with dignity and respect.

My parents sat there, quietly, when programs that benefited me as a gifted child were cut. I am not going to do that when something that benefits her is threatened, and I don't f--king care if you don't like it one damn bit.

/gotta go get some tequila to calm down now.....

Posted by Cornsilk Blondie 2008-12-17 22:57|| 2008-12-17 22:57|| Front Page Top

#17 The law requires these kids be provided a public education and school districts sometimes have to provide full-time nurses and special accommodations. Most just put them in the classroom because of short funding. Too be fair, autistic kids often do not like to be touched and strongly react to over stimulation; it may be a side effect of their medications. The time out rooms are needed to quiet them down and are standard practice. Our local elementary even has a full time psuchologist and social worker on site to coordinate with parents and doctors. Very sad state of affairs our nation is in.

Posted by Danielle 2008-12-17 23:02|| 2008-12-17 23:02|| Front Page Top

#18 try Cazadores, Cornsilk B.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-12-17 23:08|| 2008-12-17 23:08|| Front Page Top

#19 And, as I've told you before, I couldn't care less what your opinion is of my comments. Your opinion and $0.50 cents will buy you a soda at Sam's Club.

Your problems belong to you, not to everyone else and when they get tired of paying for them (which they already are, BTW), you'll be left on your own to deal with them. Be grateful you get the help you get now. In the coming economic environment, particularly that of your feckless, bankrupt state, it probably won't be there for long.

Maybe you're going to tell me that "it JUST HAS TO BE THERE BECAUSE I/WE DESERVE AND NEED IT!" Stamp your feet and demand a pony too while you're at it. You've lived in Cal too long. It's affected the sense of reality your engineering training attempted to impart. I suggest you go back and read some J.S. Mill and Jeremy Bentham.
Reality is that you get what you can pay for and the time is fast approaching where anything not absolutely essential will be ruthlessly jettisoned.

Better hold off on the tequila and save your money to deal with the cost of paying for assistance for your Down's Syndrome relative. You'll be needing it sooner than you think.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-17 23:53|| 2008-12-17 23:53|| Front Page Top

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