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2007-12-12 Olde Tyme Religion

Europe to blame for authoritarianism in Islamic world, says expert

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Posted by Fred 2007-12-12 00:00|| || Front Page|| [5 views ] Top
File under: Global Jihad

#1 I'm not one to question Bernard Lewis but I got the impression that Mohamed didn't exactly set up a democracy. A theorcracy led by one person (Caliph, or Mo or whomever) might be different than Autoritarianism but I think we're splitting hairs.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-12-12 01:27|| 2007-12-12 01:27|| Front Page Top

#2 rjschwarz, no hair hurt!

Authoritarianism has many modes, Mohammed's Warlordism and resulting Caliphate are some of them. Nothing alse has been known in that region until 20th century, and that from a third hand, at the most.

Bernard Lewis, expert, histoian, my ass! More like appeasenick and recipient of a generous stipend from YouKnowWhom.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-12-12 02:36|| 2007-12-12 02:36|| Front Page Top

#3 The title is misleading. He was talking about the models in use at the moment which, as he and Paul Berman noted, imported some of the worst features of European politics. Baathists inherit very directly from the Fascists, etc.
That's not to say that what was on the ground in the MidEast already was any good. It is always possible to make things worse.

Posted by James">James 2007-12-12 03:52|| http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]">[http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com] 2007-12-12 03:52|| Front Page Top

#4 James, horsedung.

What he said:
"The authoritarianism present in the Middle East region is not part of the Arab and Muslim tradition, but it has been imported from Europe,"

What you think he said:
"The present authoritarianism in the Middle East region is not part of the Arab and Muslim tradition, but it has been imported from Europe,"

Posted by twobyfour 2007-12-12 04:06|| 2007-12-12 04:06|| Front Page Top

#5 The islamic world was a sh1t hole before europeans got their fingers in the pie , and will be a sh1t hole long after they take em out .. Has something to do with 600 million inbreds and 10,000 years of inbreeding .

His book should read From "Babel to Dragomans: Interpreting the Middle East gene pool "

Posted by Crarong Borgia2526 2007-12-12 05:44|| 2007-12-12 05:44|| Front Page Top

#6 Bernard Lewisn has a vast knowledge of ME history, but has chosen to build his career on an endless stream of equivocation, safe in the knowledge that it is the polemic of choice amongst hand-wringing EuroPeon Dhimmis.

Here is the classic fallacy of equivocation laid bare. Democratic leaders rule by popular consent & therefore are able to make unpopular decisions without consultation. Tyrants with no popular mandate, however, must consult on every minute decision, in case it could lead to an uprising against them. To explain the latter as being an example of the former is fairly idiotic.

As for these Islamic movements taking their inspiration from the Nazis, who do you suppose Hitler was taking his inspiration from when he said "Nobody will remember the Jews, after all - who remembers the Armenians?" History has shown that genocide doesnt have the same respectability or "plausible deniability" in European societies as in Allans. Unsurprising when you read that "kill them wherever you find them" is a sacred command.

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-12-12 06:33|| 2007-12-12 06:33|| Front Page Top

#7 This dichotomy also neatly explains how the would be tyrants in our midst use examples of these "unpopular decisions" (at least decisions that are unpopular with themselves) as "evidence" of how we are not actually living in a democracy at all and how the "masses" (read radical minorities) must take direct action to stop those in charge.

These two equivocations go pretty much hand in hand, are dangerous and simply false.

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-12-12 06:46|| 2007-12-12 06:46|| Front Page Top

#8 "Bernard Lewisn has a vast knowledge of ME history..."

But like so many others, he is a SAIDist.

Orientalism be damned.

Posted by Kojo Throlump4806 2007-12-12 06:50|| 2007-12-12 06:50|| Front Page Top

#9 The circular influences are like a distillation process -- getting more and more evil. Historically the Muslims were happy to impose dhimmitude in all it's varying forms, with sporadic pogroms when the mobs got stirred up. Now they want genocide. Historically the Europeans were happy to impose their own version of dhimmitude with sporadic pograms, until they saw what the Turks got away with, and decided to industrialize it.

That doesn't mean Europe is to blame for what's happened in the Middle East -- evil is attracted to evil. On the other hand, the text of the article doesn't support the bombastic headline. *shrug* But then it is Adnkronos, the Italian "newspaper of record".

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2007-12-12 07:53|| 2007-12-12 07:53|| Front Page Top

#10 What a hell! seems many here dont know Bernard Lewis... If he is anything it isnt a SAIDist...

Posted by Pholugum Stalin1270 2007-12-12 09:33|| 2007-12-12 09:33|| Front Page Top

#11 Lewis is an Orientalist and a Saidist? That's news.

What he is doing is creating an escape route for the Arabs to abandon the fascist elements they have imported and grafted onto a very welcoming mohammedan political heritage. If all we want to do is condemn them for what they have been and declare that they can never improve, this will be a very long war indeed. At least until the oil is obsolete.

Better to convince them to change with whatever fig leaves work. The Japs still have their phoney baloney Emperor and the Brits their Queen, though for all practical purposes they have been replaced by democratic mechanisms. Frankly, if they want a figurehead Caliph who asks the victor in parliamentary elections to form a government that writes the laws that get enforced by the government under a constitution that protects property and individual rights, I could care less what he's called or what he wears.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-12-12 09:40|| 2007-12-12 09:40|| Front Page Top

#12 It's just possible that the reporter has misunderstood and misreported Lewis's words. James is probably right: Lewis was talking about the current flavor of authoritarianism, not authoritarianism in general. Because it's not like the idea of the Oriental despot was a creation of 19th century Europe. Lewis, of all people, would know that.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2007-12-12 11:19|| 2007-12-12 11:19|| Front Page Top

#13 Saddam obviously used the Stalin model but maybe Lewis considers that Euro

Posted by mhw">mhw 2007-12-12 11:44|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2007-12-12 11:44|| Front Page Top

#14 Edward Said built his career on abusing scholars like Bernard Lewis, and Lewis himself, while we're at it. Insofar as Lewis's statement can be read as shorthand for the Berman thesis, I agree with it. Modern Pan-Arabism, Baathism, and salafism are all heavily influenced by European traditions. This isn't to say that the *traditional* authoritarianisms and tyrannies they replaced were in any sense more democratic, functional, or sensible than the crap European intellectual knockoffs that replaced them. Those were arrogant, superstitious, ignorant, self-satisfied, and demonstrably incompetent. They've been replaced by authoritarianisms and totalitarianisms which are ill-informed, paranoid, jealous, inept, and marginally more functional than the traditional rubbish they replaced.

Posted by Mitch H.">Mitch H. 2007-12-12 11:52|| http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]">[http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/] 2007-12-12 11:52|| Front Page Top

#15 I really don't understand all this self-blame. I hope it's just a childish phase Europe is going through.

Why "blame" anyone? Democracy also comes from the west. Who's choice was it to chose? There are many beautiful things in the west which the Middle east shuns, but they sure love our power.

Their goal of many in the ME is global islam and conflict, even on the subconsciencious level, and they could care less about a peaceful existance.

Posted by Helmuth, Speaking for Cromong3228 2007-12-12 11:57|| 2007-12-12 11:57|| Front Page Top

#16 I blame Justinian. If, instead of trying to reconquer Western Empire, he'd sent Belisarius to clean out Arabian Peninsula...

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-12-12 12:25|| 2007-12-12 12:25|| Front Page Top

#17 Sounds like Lewis "blames" the Arabs for importing stupid Western ideas and continuing to hold them after seven decades of pointless Western internal conflict conclusively demonstrated their stupidity, not the West. Because the west had nothing to do with their decision to import or to retain what will always remain stupid western ideas.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-12-12 12:35|| 2007-12-12 12:35|| Front Page Top

#18 I think NS is right: Europe at the time was a collection of great world powers colonizing the world with alacrity. This was the sort of program that was at the core of Islam, so they copied what looked like would work, and which was equally agreeable to despots everywhere. The USA was a strictly New World power for most of the 19th century.

What's BAD is that he's saying its Europe's fault that Islam copied what was, in reality, a bad model. Seems to me lefties absolve themselves of being a role model for anybody, even though they'll judge others as if they were.

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2007-12-12 14:57|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2007-12-12 14:57|| Front Page Top

#19 What's BAD is that he's saying its Europe's fault that Islam copied what was, in reality, a bad model.

I missed that part. Can someone show me the part where he says it's Europe's "fault" that the Arabs imported European stupidity?

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-12-12 15:04|| 2007-12-12 15:04|| Front Page Top

#20 "Europe is to blame for the authoritarianism that exists in Islamic countries"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, wait -he's serious?

You mean he's not blaming the U.S.?

Geez, somehow I feel left out....

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2007-12-12 15:57|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/] 2007-12-12 15:57|| Front Page Top

#21 By Europe he means essentially the whitey. He can't pin it on Merkings in that time frame, so any other whitey would do.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-12-12 16:08|| 2007-12-12 16:08|| Front Page Top

#22 Personally, I think it is all George W. Bush's fault.

Posted by Rambler">Rambler 2007-12-12 16:57|| 2007-12-12 16:57|| Front Page Top

#23 Speaking at an international Islamic conference in Rome, Bernard Lewis said many Muslim countries have adopted a political model imported from Europe in the 19th century. "The authoritarianism present in the Middle East region is not part of the Arab and Muslim tradition, but it has been imported from Europe," said Lewis.

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2007-12-12 17:13|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2007-12-12 17:13|| Front Page Top

#24 Ptah, Please explain how that quote says Lewis is blaming Europe. Some of you are getting as sensitive as a muzzie and seething at the drop of a hat. That sentence says the Arabs imported a dumb idea from the Euros. It does not say the Euros forced them to adopt it. The Arabs remain dumb because they retain these dumb ideas after they are irrefutably shown to be dumb through real world demonstrations. How is he saying that is the Euros fault?

You are getting all heated up by the headline written by some Italian working for Adnkronos International whose name just might be mohammed.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-12-12 19:05|| 2007-12-12 19:05|| Front Page Top

#25 Ya, NS, looks like you are right and the adnkronos journo was reading into/re-interpreting BL's comments.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-12-12 19:27|| 2007-12-12 19:27|| Front Page Top

#26 We are discussing a people who take their flag from the book cover of a popular Jewish story, Exodus. They are immature, so they copy......everything, anything, monkey see, monkey do. They may even be incapable of independent thought.

Posted by wxjames 2007-12-12 19:55|| 2007-12-12 19:55|| Front Page Top

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