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2007-11-26 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by anonymous5089 2007-11-26 08:15|| || Front Page|| [7 views ] Top

#1 Lotp, sorry.

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-11-26 08:18|| 2007-11-26 08:18|| Front Page Top

#2 Yes my friend, this is the convergence between Islamicists and drug gangs I've been warning about.

Posted by lotp 2007-11-26 08:50|| 2007-11-26 08:50|| Front Page Top

#3 my son did his MOS training at Ft. Huachuca this spring - they are very aware of armed drug mules coming north over the mtns, and they have a tethered observation balloon over the base as well as very-well-armed MP's. Expect dead druggies and jihadis

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-11-26 08:58|| 2007-11-26 08:58|| Front Page Top

#4 Are they that stupid?
There's nothing that can stop the news of such an attack from getting out. It would totally collapse the cabal that has obstructed the fence, the enforcement of immigration laws, the 'no real threat' excuse makers, the business as usual with the corrupt Mexican government, etc, etc, etc. It would bring regenerate the 9/11 movement that enveloped this country and kill the Donks in the coming election. To paraphrase Inspector Callahan - make my day.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-11-26 09:01|| 2007-11-26 09:01|| Front Page Top

#5 Fort officials changed security measures after sources warned that possibly 60 Afghan and Iraqi terrorists were to be smuggled into the U.S. through underground tunnels

Why bother with smuggling let alone tunnels? They just have to walk across the border, demand tax-payer subsidized housing, education and medical care once they have their driver's licenses. Hell, once they are done with the hand-outs they can take a tenured anthropology job at Columbia instead of blowing themselves up. That would be the highest expression of jihad against the West.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-11-26 09:02|| 2007-11-26 09:02|| Front Page Top

#6 Post Commanders live for this sort of shiat.

Many years ago, the Commander of Ft. Bliss was told that the Mexican terrorist group Black September was planning to ambush a convoy carrying a tactical nuclear weapon, with intent to steal it.

In short order there were very agitated, heavily armed Cav troopers covering every square inch of that post, with contingency plans for attack all the way to Mexico City if necessary.

Nothing came of it. Ironically, the nuke convoy was just an exercise, carrying a hunk of concrete instead of a live round.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-11-26 09:19|| 2007-11-26 09:19|| Front Page Top

#7 Failing to be ready is one of those career-ending mistakes a commander can make. ;-)

Posted by lotp 2007-11-26 09:48|| 2007-11-26 09:48|| Front Page Top

#8 If the Islamofascists did attack with the help of Mexicans, the backlash against the illegals and Mexico would be... extreme. I could see a counter attack going all the way to Mexico City too.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-11-26 10:05|| 2007-11-26 10:05|| Front Page Top

#9 Sounds like tunnels need to be blown or drowned.
This in addition to a border fence.

Posted by 3dc 2007-11-26 10:09|| 2007-11-26 10:09|| Front Page Top

#10 What sort of directive does it take to exterminate a drug gang in another country?

Posted by 3dc 2007-11-26 10:10|| 2007-11-26 10:10|| Front Page Top

#11 Are they that stupid?

Don't forget that terrorism is not just about blowing stuff up. It is also a media war. An attack like this might fail, but the mere fact that it was carried out is a great propaganda victory.

Posted by SteveS 2007-11-26 10:18|| 2007-11-26 10:18|| Front Page Top

#12 btw - in this area of AZ and Mexico - I doubt tunnels are being used - they occur in urbanized areas - large salt-lick on that aspect.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-11-26 10:21|| 2007-11-26 10:21|| Front Page Top

#13 # 5 - Excalibur asks - Why bother with smuggling let alone tunnels? They just have to walk across the border, demand tax-payer subsidized housing, education and medical care once they have their driver's licenses. Hell, once they are done with the hand-outs they can take a tenured anthropology job at Columbia instead of blowing themselves up.

I suspect that's just what did happen!

Posted by Bobby 2007-11-26 11:20|| 2007-11-26 11:20|| Front Page Top

#14 SteveS - like Pearl Harbor was a great media/tactical victory. Three years later most cities of Japan looked like Charleston after Sherman got done with it. For the jihadists it would be authorization to hunt any time, any place in the world. For the Mexican gangs, they'd find themselves not having to worry about the Federales because John Pershing would be running them down all the way to their corruption bribe clients in Mexico City. Someone didn't get the message that the Americans have had several years of effective training in both the topography of Afghanistan which matches Northern Mexico and urban complexes of cities? And its not that a whole lot of troops need training in the local language which they lacked in the ME. Meanwhile, Mexico's tourist industry will disappear and the border will be tighter than Pat Robertson's hinny in San Francisco. Their economy would be hammered. Ask the French and that was because they simply flicked their finger at us.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-11-26 11:21|| 2007-11-26 11:21|| Front Page Top

#15 What sort of directive does it take to exterminate a drug gang in another country?

Are you kidding? We won't even exterminate them here, what makes you think we'd go there and do it?

Not that I wouldn't love too, here and there.

Posted by Spats Glinemp9817 2007-11-26 12:20|| 2007-11-26 12:20|| Front Page Top

#16 the Mexican terrorist group Black September was planning to ambush a convoy carrying a tactical nuclear weapon, with intent to steal it.

Mexico had Black September too>? Yikes!

Posted by Thomas Woof 2007-11-26 12:33|| 2007-11-26 12:33|| Front Page Top

#17 #10 What sort of directive does it take to exterminate a drug gang in another country?

According to Tom Clancy, drug cartels present a Clear and Present Danger to our national security, public safety, and economy even without teaming up with Islamicists. It is in American interest to eliminate the threats wherever they originate but we need a politically correct way to say "zero tolerance". ;)

Posted by Danielle 2007-11-26 13:05|| 2007-11-26 13:05|| Front Page Top

#18 Don't forget that terrorism is not just about blowing stuff up. It is also a media war. An attack like this might fail, but the mere fact that it was carried out is a great propaganda victory.

As P2k succinctly notes, such "a great media/tactical victory" can just as easily backfire. In the absence of any high-function propaganda machine here in America, few other thingsshort of another attack exceeding that of the 9-11 atrocitywould galvanize the public in such a manner.

The convergence of Mexican drug cartels and Islamists is unsurprising, especially in light of how South America (Venezuela) and the Middle East (Iran) are becoming such fast bedfellows. I would expect nothing less from those who seek wealth and power regardless of any cost in human life, a hallmark of both organizations.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-26 13:22|| 2007-11-26 13:22|| Front Page Top

#19 IIRC, the Zetas are former Mexican military Special Forces that decided to work for the drug cartels. There are supposed to be several hundred of them.

They are probably familiar with any weapon in the Mexicn Army inventory and can probably pass themselves off as Mexican Army.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al 2007-11-26 13:43|| 2007-11-26 13:43|| Front Page Top

#20 I know the AT/FP guys on Ft. Hua, they live for this shit. Gotta bunch of Border Patrolers and UAV's at their fingertips, along with about a million Minutemen and a whole Post of Dogfaces. Posting from the Middle East (Again), along with fondest Arabian Regards,
Bodyguard

Posted by Bodyguard">Bodyguard 2007-11-26 13:55|| 2007-11-26 13:55|| Front Page Top

#21 Are you kidding? We won't even exterminate them here, what makes you think we'd go there and do it?

Well, you can. But if you do manage to shoot the guy, YOU go to jail. Ask Ramos and Campion.

Posted by eLarson 2007-11-26 14:08|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2007-11-26 14:08|| Front Page Top

#22 The USA is infested with Gangs.

Mexican and Central American gangs are the most organized, prolific and dangerous gangs in Prison and the USA.

[example] Mexican Mafia enforcers-> the Sureños have not only gone after [murder] non-gang witnesses but even their families to enforce their will.

Until recently the Mexican Mafia's and the Drug Cartel's prime ambitions were only for control of the drug trade in the streets and prisons of both the USA and Mexico..

/unfinished ..i 'ave to go.. see ya..

Posted by Red Dawg">Red Dawg 2007-11-26 14:41|| 2007-11-26 14:41|| Front Page Top

#23 Dr. Max G. Manwaring argues that gang-related crime, in conjunction with the instability it wreaks upon governments, is now a serious national security and sovereignty problem in important parts of the global community. Although differences between gangs and insurgents exist, in terms of original motives and modes of operation, this linkage infers that the gang phenomenon is a mutated form of urban insurgency. That is, these nonstate actors must eventually seize political power to guarantee the freedom of action and the commercial environment they want. The common denominator that can link gangs and insurgents is that some gangs and insurgents ultimate objective is to depose or control the governments of targeted countries.

Street Gangs: The New Urban Insurgency (pdf) (ht Belmont Club)

Posted by KBK 2007-11-26 15:22|| 2007-11-26 15:22|| Front Page Top

#24 Fort Huachuca is right on the US/Mexico border and just east of the Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument. Most of the illegals enter east of there. Attacking Fort Huachuca would be a HUGE mistake for the islamists. Not only is it the home of the Army intelligence school, it's also a central part of the government's desert infiltration school.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-11-26 15:43|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-11-26 15:43|| Front Page Top

#25 Are you kidding? We won't even exterminate them here, what makes you think we'd go there and do it?

Y'know, it's not like they wear funny hats or membership badges. It means trying to identify them. Taking out the foot-soldiers doesn't do any good. It means taking out the leadership.

And that means infiltrating the organizations. That's the equivalent of infiltrating other organized crime and terror groups; a long and painstaking process of gaining trust and getting someone in position to be able to identify targets. In this case it also means having to deal with a corrupt Mexican government as well.

Who will do the extermination in the US? Who will do it in Mexico? What about elsewhere? What are the leagal issues and ramifications? Who takes the fall if there's a f*ck-up? How would that affect later ops?

It's all so easy to anonymously say 'we should do this' or 'why aren't we doing this'. It's another to actually have to put the mechanisms and personnel in place. Especially when there are plenty of priorities and limited resources.

This ain't '24'.

Posted by Pappy 2007-11-26 17:34|| 2007-11-26 17:34|| Front Page Top

#26 Y'know, it's not like they wear funny hats or membership badges. It means trying to identify them. Taking out the foot-soldiers doesn't do any good. It means taking out the leadership.

And that means infiltrating the organizations. That's the equivalent of infiltrating other organized crime and terror groups; a long and painstaking process of gaining trust and getting someone in position to be able to identify targets. In this case it also means having to deal with a corrupt Mexican government as well.

You know Pappy, our boys have learned to do exactly this, in one way or another, in Iraq in the last couple of years. It's not like its something new. Throw in the fact, that a lot of our guys actually speak the local lingo, the transition isn't going to be that hard.

The biggest hurdle is local cooperation. It took a long time for the Sunnis the recognize that we were there to help them before it sank in that AQ indeed were the bad guys. The same is going to happen to the south. I'm sure the knee jerk action of the locals will be nationalistic anti-yankee. However, they also have no love for the corrupt officials and families along with their drug lord masters. They also understand that is why family members went north for a better life and that better life can now come directly to them. That is the focus factor in getting the information flow.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-11-26 18:04|| 2007-11-26 18:04|| Front Page Top

#27 What sort of directive does it take to exterminate a drug gang in another country? A presidential directive. It's already been done - see the case of the late Pablo Escobar. "Clear and Present Danger" was loosely based on that story. Anyone interested in how a drug gang can almost bring down a country should study that case.

Posted by moody blues 2007-11-26 18:40|| 2007-11-26 18:40|| Front Page Top

#28 You know Pappy, our boys have learned to do exactly this, in one way or another, in Iraq in the last couple of years. It's not like its something new. Throw in the fact, that a lot of our guys actually speak the local lingo, the transition isn't going to be that hard.

The key word here is 'Iraq'. The S&T exists and may be transferrable, but it's not the same political and military situation.

The biggest hurdle is local cooperation. It took a long time for the Sunnis the recognize that we were there to help them before it sank in that AQ indeed were the bad guys.

At this point, we're not in a state of open war with Mexico, nor do we have an understanding with the Mexican government regarding their bad guys. For that matter, I'm not even sure the local situation is comparable.

I won't even go into the over/covert, domestic, or 'turf war' aspects.

It's not impossible or improbable. But it's something that has to be looked at in relation to its own aspects, other priorities, assets, etc.

Posted by Pappy 2007-11-26 18:42|| 2007-11-26 18:42|| Front Page Top

#29 It's already been done - see the case of the late Pablo Escobar.

Escobar was eliminated by the Colombians. The US provided the intel.

Posted by Pappy 2007-11-26 18:44|| 2007-11-26 18:44|| Front Page Top

#30 Escobar was eliminated by the Colombians. The US provided the intel.

But! But! Delta Force was there! And those guys that fly over with planes abd listen to phone calls and stuff!

Or maybe he was confusing Pablo with that other South American druglord fella, ya know, the one that's now in prison Stateside.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-11-26 20:50|| 2007-11-26 20:50|| Front Page Top

#31 Pappy, I was just wondering. It was a question and you all answered it quite well.

The combined answers suggest that it is something bigger and more dangerous than this smuggling assistance and needs at least full Presidential approval.

Posted by 3dc 2007-11-26 20:53|| 2007-11-26 20:53|| Front Page Top

#32 Actually I hope they do attempt the attack. It woudl be what we need to finally kick border security firmly into the public eye, and wake up those amneasty/open-borders people.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-11-26 21:44|| 2007-11-26 21:44|| Front Page Top

#33 Lotsa talk. Look at the raids on Fred and RB, resolve the IP's, many of then come from sites hosted in Scottsdale. It's a diversion for the dummies!

Posted by Skidmark 2007-11-26 22:54|| 2007-11-26 22:54|| Front Page Top

23:53 Zenster
23:49 Procopius2k
23:43 Zenster
23:38 Zenster
23:25 Zenster
23:21 Zenster
23:09 Zenster
23:05 Skidmark
22:58 Skidmark
22:56 Skidmark
22:54 Skidmark
22:48 Silentbrick
22:47 Zenster
22:44 Ptah
22:17 Justrand
21:51 Leonard Plynth Garnell
21:48 mrp
21:44 OldSpook
21:42 Grunter
21:33 trailing wife
21:25 Nimble Spemble
21:24 trailing wife
21:17 Nimble Spemble
21:05 WTF