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2007-10-27 Iraq

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Posted by Steve White 2007-10-27 00:00|| || Front Page|| [5 views ] Top

#1 Marines declare war on garbage

Hasn't that always been their original charter?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-27 00:41|| 2007-10-27 00:41|| Front Page Top

#2 Another slow news day.

Posted by danking70 2007-10-27 00:52|| 2007-10-27 00:52|| Front Page Top

#3 Like the other Marines in his infantry unit, ..., Falk sees trash pickup as the key to maintaining security in Ramadi

I'd buy that man a beer.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-10-27 01:33|| 2007-10-27 01:33|| Front Page Top

#4 This bears a similarity to a part of Rudolph Giuliani's anti-crime initiative in New York where squeegee men were banished, broken windows were fixed and graffiti was no longer tolerated.

When every inch of the city demonstrates the influence of law and order, normal citizens feel that their environment is under control and are more willing to cooperate with those preserving the peace.

Posted by Grumenk Philalzabod0723 2007-10-27 01:49|| 2007-10-27 01:49|| Front Page Top

#5 Maybe I'm missing the point here, but shouldn't Iraqis be picking up their own garbage 5 years into this?

Posted by bigjim-ky 2007-10-27 09:48|| 2007-10-27 09:48|| Front Page Top

#6 I was hoping this was a story about declaring war on the Westboro Baptist church(?).

Posted by JohnQC 2007-10-27 09:48|| 2007-10-27 09:48|| Front Page Top

#7 Quagmire. Literally.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-10-27 10:14|| 2007-10-27 10:14|| Front Page Top

#8 Just part of policing the area.

Posted by Thomas Woof 2007-10-27 10:32|| 2007-10-27 10:32|| Front Page Top

#9 Look up the "Broken WIndow" theory.

Trash pickup may be more important than you realize.

And if this is what we are workign on in Ramadi, then what a massive change that the press has refused to report on, in terms of front page stuff.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-27 12:49|| 2007-10-27 12:49|| Front Page Top

#10 "It makes me happy, just to see them working."

/Pur010-jooooooooooo!

Posted by Thomas Woof 2007-10-27 13:09|| 2007-10-27 13:09|| Front Page Top

#11 Whatever the Marines declare war on, I wouldn't want to be it!

After these guys come home, we are going to have an group of people with solid exerience in making cities and villages work. Politically, that has got to be a good thing.

Posted by SteveS 2007-10-27 13:30|| 2007-10-27 13:30|| Front Page Top

#12 BigJim, yes, we want the Iraqis to do this on their own. As the article notes, this is a rather big culture change and will require time. I especially like the fellow who said, jokingly, that the Iraqi Police should shoot litterbugs. He gets it.

The 'Broken Window' theory as applied to war and reconstruction is an interesting idea.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-10-27 14:15|| 2007-10-27 14:15|| Front Page Top

#13 Shooting litterbugs is a little extreme, but community service cleaning up a lot or a block for a first offense would be fine.

Posted by wxjames 2007-10-27 14:28|| 2007-10-27 14:28|| Front Page Top

#14 i'm with big jim , these ppl need too leaern too get off their sorry asses and do something for themself for a change, and for the guy demanding 1500 trash dumpsters i wounder how many dinars he offered in buying any of them my guess would be none.

Posted by sinse 2007-10-27 14:38|| 2007-10-27 14:38|| Front Page Top

#15 OldSpook is correct. It is a weird aspect of human psychology that people react to "messy" and "tidy" in strange ways. Put a typical person in a messy house and they quickly turn into a slob; but the same person in a clean house and they try to keep it clean. And the same applies to entire cities.

Guiliani used the idea in NYC to effect, raising overall cleanliness, courtesy, friendliness, and a lot more, seemingly overnight.

Over time, it also raises expectations. So that when a pile of garbage does appear, everybody gets annoyed by it and demand it be removed. Things like that.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-10-27 16:41|| 2007-10-27 16:41|| Front Page Top

#16 The 'Broken Window' theory as applied to war and reconstruction is an interesting idea.

Call me cynical but I sincerely doubt that civic pride will ever be able to trump sectarian allegiances and their perpetual rivalries. From all indications, Muslims would rather live in total hell-holes than ever make peace with each other or the outside world. The Palestinians are a sterling example of this. The "broken window" theory works in the West because of our low context culture. In Islam, the broken window carries with it a caravan of religious and moral baggage of who broke it, for what reason and an endless array of other contextual horseradish that drowns out the simple need for civic pride.

The simple fact remains that Islam's clergy regard prosperity as inimical to jihad. Well-fed, prosperous people rapidly lose the will to struggle on in an endless battle. The Islamists know this and most likely view corruption as a vital tool to supress general economic advancement. Likewise with any sense of nationalism. Khomeini declared patriotism to be a form of paganism in that any worship of the state infringed upon the rightful due of Allah. Islam is nothing less than an intellectual, spiritual, moral and economic straitjacket.

Posted by Zenster ">Zenster 2007-10-27 16:44|| 2007-10-27 16:44|| Front Page Top

#17 Shooting litterbugs is a little extreme

Maybe for you!

Posted by Sledge Hammer">Sledge Hammer 2007-10-27 16:47|| 2007-10-27 16:47|| Front Page Top

#18 Zentster, its not civil pride but human nature that's at work. Don;t get so stuck on your view of Islam and religion that you miss fundamental things. The borken window psychology works regardless of religion, atheism, patriotism etc. Its all about human nature and keeping your area clean and nice. Basic human survival instinct at work. Nothing at all to do with culture except in the manner of how the cleaning gets done. These folks are having to learn to do things themselves after 4+ decades of totalitarian government. So it will need some effort and time.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-27 20:36|| 2007-10-27 20:36|| Front Page Top

#19 I understand, 'Spook, and I'm willing to give it a shot but, as I noted, the Palestinians sure haven't given me much confidence regarding this. If we can instill some civic pride in the Iraqis, then there might be a chance that they will also latch onto the concept of nationalism. That's going to be a critical jump because of how vital it is that Iraq not be absorbed by Iran, both politically and religiously. The fact that Iraq immediately went about enacting shari'a law is one of the biggest indicators that they want to crawl back into the stone-age. Unfortunately, fixing broken windows won't have much effect on that.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-27 20:51|| 2007-10-27 20:51|| Front Page Top

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