Article

2007-10-01 Home Front: Politix

Pentagon Discharging PTSD Personnel As Having Pre-Existing Mental Conditions

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-10-01 10:56|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 "Stolen Valor", chapter 7.

Posted by Heriberto Ulusomble6667 2007-10-01 11:14|| 2007-10-01 11:14|| Front Page Top

#2 3,750 on average a year out of how many million?

No facts on how many of the dischargees served in combat.

No facts on where the dischargees were in their career, i.e. boot camp vs long service.

Bull....

Posted by Chuck Simmins">Chuck Simmins 2007-10-01 12:35|| http://northshorejournal.org]">[http://northshorejournal.org] 2007-10-01 12:35|| Front Page Top

#3 The result appears to be that many actually suffering from combat-related problems such as post-traumatic stress disorder or traumatic brain injuries don't get the help they need.

Maybe. Maybe not. Numbers please.
History. Back in the late 60s and 70s, the military was inhibited from just kicking out drug uses, cause the courts ruled that it was the 'military' that caused the individual to take up drug, so the military had to fix it. So the military had to run rehab programs with the problem children till their enlistments ran out and the issue got transfered to the VA. The unit command structures got to spend way too much time dealing with problem children and not on training the motivated. After a while, someone actually looked into the 'problem' to discover it was largely a pre-existing condition/behavior, not something the 'evil' military caused. That coupled with a decision by the SCOTUS that since it had become a 'volunteer' force, they could indeed fire their asses. That's when reform started to take hold at the start of the 80s. So take with about a pound of salt what "experts say". Couldn't be any agenda here, no really? or as Ronnie said, trust but verify.

"They've kicked out about 22,000 troops who they say have pre-existing personality disorders. I don't believe that," Bond said in an interview Friday

Belief is not fact. The subject matter needs to be addressed, but by adults using their brains not their fantasies.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-10-01 12:52|| 2007-10-01 12:52|| Front Page Top

#4 If they've served in combat (including support and IZ) then one should assume any PTSD is service-related and treat it as best we can. If they have not been in combat then one could reasonably assume that any PTSD is not service-related, but something pre-existing - but I would still try to treat it if possible because 1) the soldier did sign on, 2) you don't want to release potential time-bombs on their communities if you don't have to, 3) you want to minimize 'stigma' of seeking mental help (for anyone), and 4) regardless of cause, the disorder and any effects of it WILL reflect back on the service.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-10-01 13:01|| 2007-10-01 13:01|| Front Page Top

#5 Trying to replay Vietnam - now moving to the "Crazy War Vet" stage. Gives them a new class of victims to ride politically.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-01 13:11|| 2007-10-01 13:11|| Front Page Top

#6 PTSD for combat and deployed trrops. IF they are a REMF who never left the states or a friendly base in Japan or Germany (etc), then its not PTSD.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-01 13:12|| 2007-10-01 13:12|| Front Page Top

#7 Iffy assertions.

It certainly is true that the military is cash strapped and capability strapped WRT the large number of injuries vs. deaths in this war compared to previous ones.

From what I've seen, tho, the Army at least has a huge push on to educate NCOs and commissioned officers re: PTSD and brain injury, encourage soldiers to get diagnosed and to treat diagnosed cases. Many of these conditions are treatable and the Army is more than happy to do so and retain good soldiers where possible.

Posted by lotp 2007-10-01 13:13|| 2007-10-01 13:13|| Front Page Top

#8 That is, iffy assertions in the article (not in the comments earlier than mine).

Posted by lotp 2007-10-01 13:14|| 2007-10-01 13:14|| Front Page Top

#9 It's an all-volunteer force. It doesn't pay for the military to poison the well by stiffing people like this as a policy, especially for a service combat related problem like PTSD. So my initial sniff test is that this is a nutrient rich story.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-10-01 13:27|| 2007-10-01 13:27|| Front Page Top

#10 IF they are a REMF who never left the states or a friendly base in Japan or Germany (etc), then its not PTSD.

Not quite, OldSpook. It could well be post-traumatic stress disorder without being combat related. Lots of cases in the civilian world result from traffic accidents, childhood abuse, rape... at least two of which could occur in the Service without ever nearing the sound of guns.

This is an area, along with treatment of traumatic brain injury and its side effects, where research and treatment development have been on an accelerating curve in the past few years, and where those specializing in the field have increasingly been dropping other areas of interest to concentrate on the troops coming home. So it isn't surprising that those rightfully concerned with getting units functional for and in combat haven't kept up.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-10-01 14:00|| 2007-10-01 14:00|| Front Page Top

#11 I've been involved in some of this kind of mess both prior to my retirement, and afterwards. TW is right - PTSD can occur from many things other than combat. The physical stress of working 14 or 15 hours in 100+degree heat during an exercise can leave a person doing some mighty strange things. Sometimes stress is part of the daily routine, and over time can affect a person adversely, both physically and mentally. I've seen a number of people break under such stress, especially without relief. The military isn't very forgiving under such circumstances, and blames the individual, not the situation. Bad call. I've also seen commanders use mental issues as an excuse to get rid of someone who was physically exhausted from a stressful job situation.

Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder is just that - a reaction to traumatic stress. One person I knew went to pieces when his wife was killed in a four-car accident in Germany. The Air Force eventually discharged him, because he couldn't function in his job.

I know military life is rough, and I know you have to accept a pretty high level of stress, depending on the job and the assignment, while serving. That's not new. Relating ALL the changes in individuals to "pre-existing conditions" doesn't seem to acknowledge that. Knowing the military's propensities to look at mental cases as "failures" makes me distrust such evaluations until I know a LOT more about what's happening.

NOTE: I physically collapsed at work after working a highly stressful job for 23 months without a day's leave, and usually working six days a week, ten to twelve hours a day. I got labelled a "mental case" until the Hospital Commander where I was sent for "evaluation" gave my commander a very forceful and negative "evaluation". I've been there. BTW, that six weeks of "outpatient therapy" was the first relief from stress I'd had in about five years. Did wonders!

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-10-01 17:35|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-10-01 17:35|| Front Page Top

#12 TW, I doubt the non-combat sources of PTSD number the thousands annually. They certainly would be an anomaly. Which is why I'd like to see better statistical breakdown on this so called "dumping". Especially 1st-enlistement status, combat/deployment status, etc.

If it breaks down that a lot of these are combat or combat related, then someone in the Pentagon needs to get beat up badly on this.

If its mainly rear-echelon, with no combat deployments, and no other service-related, then its jsut the Army cleaning out sh*tbirds like Beauchamp and that Fake Ranger.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-01 18:38|| 2007-10-01 18:38|| Front Page Top

#13 I guess where I was from, we couldn't go in for evals like that - you'd lose your clearance, and thus your ability to be assigned to the unit. PRP pretty strict, as is the SCI stuff.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-01 18:41|| 2007-10-01 18:41|| Front Page Top

#14 PTSD, in and out of the service, seems a whole lot more common than it used to be. I see two reasons for this.
1) We are better at recognizing it.
2) We have less stress in our lives in general, so it takes smaller 'trauma' to trigger disorder. In the past, every day they rains didn't come meant another day you'd go hungry this winter - now WIC will take care of you; a lot less stressful for all concerned. Etc.
{3) In the service more wounded survive, meaning more survivors to have PTSD.}

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-10-01 18:58|| 2007-10-01 18:58|| Front Page Top

#15 PRP pretty strict, as is the SCI stuff.

There might be a bit more leeway on this now OS.

Posted by lotp 2007-10-01 19:15|| 2007-10-01 19:15|| Front Page Top

#16 For evals, I mean, not for allowing people to continue in sensitive roles when the evals show cognitive or other strains.

Posted by lotp 2007-10-01 19:30|| 2007-10-01 19:30|| Front Page Top

#17 A servicemember is part of a total-gross military machine, and that machine's job is to win battles, win wars, and gener defeat or destroy an enemy including but not limited to the enemy's will to fight/resist, the enemy's resources-suppors, belief systems and society, etc. iff need be. PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS > during the Cold War, iff a candidate/recruit had a prior, pre-service record of psychological treatment or disorder, the USDOD wanted a certified record of it for evaluation.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-10-01 19:54|| 2007-10-01 19:54|| Front Page Top

#18 I guess where I was from, we couldn't go in for evals like that - you'd lose your clearance, and thus your ability to be assigned to the unit. PRP pretty strict, as is the SCI stuff.

If someone where you were had PTSD, OldSpook, they shouldn't have stayed in the unit, no matter how much they wanted to carry on. PTSD is classed as one of the anxiety disorders, and apparently at least partially results from an imbalance in the brain chemicals, which causes the neurons to misfire. For perspective, panic attacks and obsessive-compulsive disorder are also anxiety disorders, which gives an idea of how disabling such things can be. Paranoia and depression are differently classified, although anxiety disorders are often accompanied by some degree of depression -- it's hard to keep a positive outlook when one's thoughts change without one thinking them. Random variation within the genome means that some are more susceptible to falling into such an imbalance under severe or prolonged stress -- it's nothing to do with courage or sanity or sanguine temperment beforehand, as far as I know (which granted isn't very far, it's just that I've a couple of friends and relatives who've been treated for anxiety disorders, and one who we think should have been treated for PTSD, but it wasn't known then).

Actually, I would argue we have more direct stress in our lives, Glenmore. Things move a lot faster now, especially in the U.S., so we function a lot more on adrenaline, rather than having time to ponder and come to terms with thing. Our surroundings are louder in general -- stressful in itself -- more of us live in heterogeneous communities, where differences must be accommodated, more of us travel great distances and are exposed to different diseases even just cold viruses meaning our systems are more stressed underneath what our minds are dealing with, everything is more competitive, and so forth, etc.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-10-01 21:55|| 2007-10-01 21:55|| Front Page Top

23:54 twobyfour
23:44 JosephMendiola
23:43 Linker
23:18 gorb
23:17 Frank G
23:16 Frank G
23:16 trailing wife
23:14 Zenster
23:12 trailing wife
23:10 Zenster
23:04 trailing wife
23:02 Procopius2k
23:01 Zenster
22:59 JosephMendiola
22:55 Zenster
22:54 Pappy
22:52 trailing wife
22:52 JosephMendiola
22:51 JosephMendiola
22:48 JosephMendiola
22:47 twobyfour
22:36 Super Hose
22:33 WTF
22:31 Super Hose