Article

2007-08-24 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

Fearing Syrian missile onslaught, IDF boosts Arrow defenses in North

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Posted by Fred 2007-08-24 00:00|| || Front Page|| [9 views ] Top
File under: Govt of Syria

#1 Unfortunately, IDF doesn't have enough Arrows. Arrow is very expensive, and Israel's attempt to defry some of the costs by selling Arrows to India was blocked by our dear friends---mustn't interfere with Patriot sales.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-08-24 07:24|| 2007-08-24 07:24|| Front Page Top

#2 Especially since the US has already paid $2 billion for Arrow for Israelis and still pays 50% for more systems. How much have Israelis contributed? BTW, where are the missiles built, using whose technology?

Posted by ed 2007-08-24 07:31|| 2007-08-24 07:31|| Front Page Top

#3 Perhaps the most annoying part of this is that Israel seems to make no effort to use counter missile fire, but wants to fight purely defense. The Syrians are probably terribly weak in their own anti-missiles defenses and damage control, and if the Israelis used appropriate retaliation, they would think twice.

For example, let it be known that if attacked, they would strongly target all the assets of the Alawite Shiites, the 10% minority ruling tribe. They would be thrilled with Assad for that.

But Israel's policy seems to be "nothing, or massive nuclear attack", which is downright stupid.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-08-24 10:26|| 2007-08-24 10:26|| Front Page Top

#4 The Arrows should be tasked with intercepting big incoming, not popgun (but dangerous nonetheless)katashuya and other small stuff...

Posted by M. Murcek">M. Murcek 2007-08-24 10:26|| 2007-08-24 10:26|| Front Page Top

#5 Israel seems to make no effort to use counter missile fire, but wants to fight purely defense.

You do not win wars by playing defense. As Sun Tzu sez: the best defense is to deliver a serious ass-kicking.

Posted by SteveS 2007-08-24 13:00|| 2007-08-24 13:00|| Front Page Top

#6 Any spot where missiles are fired from should immediately be saturated with a MRLS bombardment followed by a napalm strike.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-08-24 14:19|| 2007-08-24 14:19|| Front Page Top

#7 US paid for research BA, and has full access to the tech. Which is a huge benefit to USA, because none of your firms haven't come with anything even close. Let me give you a hint: how do you distinguish between first rate & seconf rate USA high tech companies?

Posted by gromgoru 2007-08-24 15:47|| 2007-08-24 15:47|| Front Page Top

#8 If Israel needs money, could they just sell the Arrow to China?

Posted by Gr*m 2007-08-24 16:29|| 2007-08-24 16:29|| Front Page Top

#9 Bah! That was me. Sorry.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-08-24 16:29|| 2007-08-24 16:29|| Front Page Top

#10 Let's see what army-technology.com has to say.
Boeing is responsible for production of approximately 50% of the missile components in the US, including the electronics section, booster motorcase and missile canister.

Boeing also co-ordinates the production of Arrow missile components being manufactured by more than 150 American companies, including ATK (first and second stage rocket motor cases and first stage nozzle).

BTW, the seeker is built by Raytheon. You know the folks who build the Patriots and Standard missiles. The dual seeker looks to be lifted from Standard-IIIB (10 years old).

Doesn't leave a whole lot for the Israelis to do. But wait: The first stage booster is manufactured by Israel

The warhead is a high explosive directed blast fragmentation warhead developed by Rafael,

So do stuff the interceptor with rocket fuel and explosives and call it a day.

The fundamental problem of Arrow is that is uses a blast fragmentation warhead (Like Patroit I & 2). In Gulf War I, it was found that the warhead must be destroyed, else it will land and explode somewhere. US TBM projects like THAAD or Standard SM-3 are more ambitious, designed to intercept 5000km range missiles in the exoatmosphere. All US ATBM designs use hit to kill.

Another note is Arrow is sized to intercept 1000km range missiles (i.e. fired from Iran). Syrian missiles (e.g. Iskander, 280km range) are much more efficiently intercepted by PAC-III.

Not only did the US pay for the R&D and builds most of it, but still pays for Israeli acquisition of it. Not much of a deal for the US. Any data can be aquired for less than $2 billion, of which did not come from the $2.4 yearly US-Israeli military aid, but special and separate appropriations from Congress. BTW, have the Israelis sold the tech to China yet, like they did with Patriot only a year after the US gave it to the Israelis?

Posted by ed 2007-08-24 17:20|| 2007-08-24 17:20|| Front Page Top

#11 In February 2003, IAI signed an agreement with Boeing to establish the production infrastructure to manufacture components of the Arrow missile in the US.
[that is, the money actually goes to american companies] Boeing will be responsible for the production of approximately 50% of the missile components in the US. Boeing will produce various missile components and co-ordinate the production of existing Arrow missile components already being manufactured by more than 150 American companies. IAI will be responsible for integration and final assembly of the missile in Israel.

The system's development is jointly funded by the United States and Israel. Since 1988, the United States has provided Israel with more than $628 million in grants for research and development of the Arrow through the defense budget. When fully deployed, Israel will have paid for 60% of the program, which is ultimately expected to cost about $1 billion.

The Elta Green Pine early warning and fire control radar for the Arrow system. The radar can detect targets at ranges up to about 500km and is able to track targets at speeds over 3,000m/s.

The Arrow Weapon System features a state-of-the-art EL/M2080 L-band radar, Green Pine
[without which it's just an expensive Scud], based on the decades of experience in developing technological solutions for early warning and fire control defense systems.
The Elta Electronic Industries subsidiary of IAI Electronic Group developed the Green Pine early warning and fire control radar for the Arrow system. The radar carries the designation EL/M-2090 and includes the trailer mounted radar and antenna array, the power generator, a cooling system and a radar control centre.

Green Pine is an electronically scanned, solid state, phased array radar operating at L-band in the range 500MHz to 1,000MHz, and was developed from the Elta Music phased array radar. The radar operates in search, detection, tracking and missile guidance modes simultaneously.

BTW, have the Israelis sold the tech to China yet, like they did with Patriot only a year after the US gave it to the Israelis?

Seems to be an article of faith with you people---exactly the same way your EUro cousins believe that we deprived Palestinians of their land.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-08-24 21:03|| 2007-08-24 21:03|| Front Page Top

#12 Seems to be an article of faith with you people---exactly the same way your EUro cousins believe that we deprived Palestinians of their land.

Mike N. is particularly fond of that thought, for some reason.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-08-24 21:30|| 2007-08-24 21:30|| Front Page Top

#13 You know TW, now then I think of it---it's kind of funny. Americans, of certain type, endlessly complain that their government f*cks them over. However, exactly the same people rise in wrath then I say that USG has been f*cking Israel over for 30 years. Maybe I should start addressing them in Spanish?

Posted by gromgoru 2007-08-24 22:10|| 2007-08-24 22:10|| Front Page Top

#14 When fully deployed, Israel will have paid for 60% of the program, which is ultimately expected to cost about $1 billion.

Ah, no. The US has already paid for about $2 billion. The crux of funding is:
http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1988/04/mm0488_06.html
There have been a few disagreements, however. Israel felt betrayed when Washington offered direct financing for only 50 percent of the ATBM project, with the further stipulation that at least 10 percent of the remainder had to be Israeli money, rather than recycled U.S. aid. Israel had expected all costs to be picked up by Washington, either directly or indirectly.

That's only a 10% Israeli money requirement.

According to a 1993 General Accounting Office (GAO) report, the United States had paid $553.4 million of the Arrow project's $579.5 million cost as of the end of fiscal year 1995

That's 95.5% US funding till 1995.

US funding includes 50% of the $1.6 billion R&D funded by extradinary Congressional grants plus the yearly military aid to Israel. The total R&D phase has cost the US taxpayer $1.3 billion. Israel picked up the tab for the Green Pine radar (and fire control as far as I know).

1.3/1.6 = 81% directly traceable to the US. Green Pine dev and components sourced from the US is unknown.

Congratulations on the Green Pine. The US used L band radar in WW2 and has progressed several generations to X-band for the ABM role, though I do give credit for the phased array, a miniature of that in US service in the mid 1970s (e.g. Cobra Dane early warning). Israel has already sold it to India. Any doubt it would have been sold to China if the US did not threaten consequences?

Since 1988, the United States has provided Israel with about $1 billion in grants for research and development of the Arrow anti-missile missile (Global Security Newswire,
March 15, 2002).

Then there is procurement. US extraordinary funding for almost all the first battery and second batteries. Only half of the third battery price ($81.6M extraordinary funding) has been approved by Congress. Most of the rest will be paid with regular US mil aid (assuming Congress doesn't pony up even more money).

To give you a feeling for the extraordinary US aid (in addition to yearly military aid). This is several years old:
In addition to the foreign assistance, the
United States has provided Israel with $625
million to develop and deploythe Arrow anti-
missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3
billion to develop theLavi aircraft (cancelled),
$200 million to develop the Merkava tank
(operative), $130 million to develop the high
energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing),
and other military projects. In FY2000 the
United States provided Israel an additional
$1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in
FY2002 the United States provided an
additional $200 million in anti-terror
assistance.

So tell me again how the US is screwring Israel? That or buy a clue. I'm sure the US taxpayer will fund that too.

Posted by ed 2007-08-24 22:26|| 2007-08-24 22:26|| Front Page Top

#15 USA also provided (approx) a trillion in military aid to its various Islamic allies. That doesn't include 300 billion spent on bringing democracy to Iraq. But, for some reason---you expect a lot more from Israel than from your other allies.

So tell me again how the US is screwring Israel?

Sinai (twice), Judea & Samaria. Lavi. Sabotaging Israel's trade with China*. Training Paleo terrorists. The recent Lebanese war. Forcing Israel to finance Paleo terrorism. Interfering in Israel's internal politics.

*I don't mention the accusations of Israel's floging US tech to China because none ever came from official sources---who can't afford to make statements they can't substantiate.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-08-24 22:39|| 2007-08-24 22:39|| Front Page Top

#16 Before I forget: China's Missile Imports and Assistance From Israel

China's Missile Imports and Assistance From Israel

China's missile-related imports and assistance from Israel have been a subject of particular concern in the United States because of worries that Israel may be providing China with "back door" access to controlled, sensitive US technology. For example, in the early 1990s, reports surfaced that Israel had secretly transferred information on the US Patriot missile system to China, in violation of Israel's promise to the United States not to transfer the Patriot technology to any third country. Although both China and Israel denied the allegations, US government sources concluded that it was almost certain that a transfer of technology (though not physical equipment) had taken place.

China is reportedly using the Patriot technology to improve its surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems and to develop countermeasures against the Patriot for its ballistic and cruise missiles; reports also indicated that China intended to sell these SAMs and enhanced missiles to other countries, possibly including Iran. Reports suggested various Israeli motives for the transfer: some suggested that Israel had traded Patriot information for information on China's missiles; others asserted that Israel's transfer of Patriot technology was intended to encourage China to curtail its sales of ballistic missiles to countries in the Middle East such as Syria and Iran.

In addition to the alleged Patriot technology transfer, Israel has allegedly supplied China with cruise missile technology, including sensitive US technology. Specifically, Israel is allegedly assisting China with the development of its YF-12A, YJ-62, and YJ-92 cruise missiles.
...
Since the cancellation of the Phalcon radar deal, Israel has assisted China in other areas including the development of the HQ-9/FT-2000, a surface-to-air missile, which would possibly use U.S. seeker technology. It has also assisted China in the area of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV). In July 2002, China deployed Israeli "Harpy" anti-radar drones in military exercises in Fujian Province.
...
An Israeli official, electing to remain anonymous, suggested that Israel would continue to sell to China military equipment available on the global arms market.

Posted by ed 2007-08-24 22:41|| 2007-08-24 22:41|| Front Page Top

#17 Our tech Eddy, not your---we're not your slaves yet.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-08-24 22:45|| 2007-08-24 22:45|| Front Page Top

#18 Yours as a thief would claim.
Arrow 80-90% paid by US.
Lavi 90% paid by US. Sold to Cina. Now J-10.
Patriot 100% paid by US. Data sold to China. Countermeasures incorporated into ballistic missiles, some aimed at israel.
Python-3 direct copy of AIM-9L. Entire manufacturing line sold to China as PL-9.

Want more?

Posted by ed 2007-08-24 23:00|| 2007-08-24 23:00|| Front Page Top

#19 Of course, the easy way to solve the problem of America butting in on internal Israel policy or Israeli foreign military actions would be to simply tell the U.S. to go away.

maybe I should address them in Spanish

Maybe you should sponge Spanish tax dollars instead.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-08-24 23:38|| 2007-08-24 23:38|| Front Page Top

23:59 trailing wife
23:54 Zenster
23:52 Zenster
23:47 Renfield1896
23:38 Mike N.
23:36 SteveS
23:22 DMFD
23:18 Frank G
23:09 Seafarious
23:03 SteveS
23:02 RWV
23:00 ed
22:51 Zenster
22:45 gromgoru
22:44 gromgoru
22:42 Jan
22:41 ed
22:40 gromgoru
22:39 gromgoru
22:35 Frank G
22:27 Frank G
22:27 gorb
22:26 gorb
22:26 ed