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2007-06-25 Iraq

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Posted by Fred 2007-06-25 00:00|| || Front Page|| [2 views ] Top
File under: al-Qaeda in Iraq

#1 Their actuals are far lower than the original estimates of how many bad guyz were in the city. I imagine a lot of questions are being raised about that exact point right now.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-06-25 00:30|| 2007-06-25 00:30|| Front Page Top

#2 Excuuuse me, but what game is this ? Americans are being sacrificed daily and shredded by IED's continually and we know full well that the rag-tag Iraqis are going to walk away and turn the area back to the insurgents ? Same game as 3 years ago ? Just what is this about ? (Yeah, the oil)

Posted by Woozle Elmeter2970 2007-06-25 00:57|| 2007-06-25 00:57|| Front Page Top

#3 Yea, our refinerys are overflowing with oil from Iraq, dimwit.

It is about an effort to prevent a full blown world war. The results are still unclear and it may be a failed effort, in the end. But it had to be attempted--the future generations would not forgive us if it wasn't, in the light of what we and they would have to do.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-06-25 05:24|| 2007-06-25 05:24|| Front Page Top

#4 Hope you'll forgive the cynicism, but the first thing that came into my mind upon reading the headline was "They've killed 60% of that city's population?".

Posted by gromgoru 2007-06-25 06:37|| 2007-06-25 06:37|| Front Page Top

#5 Heh 2x4 is use namesake on numbnutz.

Posted by Shipman 2007-06-25 08:49|| 2007-06-25 08:49|| Front Page Top

#6 "Americans are being sacrificed daily and shredded by IED's continually and we know full well that the rag-tag Iraqis are going to walk away and turn the area back to the insurgents ? Same game as 3 years ago ?"

From everything ive read, there are far more competent Iraqi units then there were 3 years ago (time of the Fallujah battle). But far from all of them are up to snuff, and Iraqs a big country. And the Kurds like to retain at least some of the crack Kurdish units in the north for their own defense. Presumably most of the best Iraqi units are going to be used to hold newly cleared areas of Baghdad. But the Q is, does that leave enough for Baquba, and the belts around Baghdad? Ideally youd only use Iraqi army units in a given area for a while, and then turn over to the police. But the police are very unreliable, as well as less competent than the Iraqi Army, from what I understand. So there really isnt any choice but to A. turn some of the holding over to less than ideal Iraqi army units and B. Have US forces keep holding their hands, to some degree.

Whether that will work or not, is an open question at this point.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2007-06-25 09:57|| 2007-06-25 09:57|| Front Page Top

#7 Read this and tell me what you think, dear Woozle Elmeter2970. I found it very helpful in clarifying my own thinking on the subject, which too often has a tendency to be a bit cluttered with sentiment.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-25 10:00|| 2007-06-25 10:00|| Front Page Top

#8 Well said, Liberalhawk (the things that get posted between the time I start thinking and the time I actually hit Submit!). In many ways this offensive is yet another training exercise for the various Iraqi army and police units. The key is continuous improvement rather than current competence on an absolute scale. The Iraqi security and defense forces are growing as rapidly as acceptable recruits can be found, so it should be expected that many units and individuals perform like the newbies they are.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-25 10:04|| 2007-06-25 10:04|| Front Page Top

#9 Were closing the noose, Bednarek said. Its the hard-core fighters left guys who will die for their cause, as misaligned as that is. And they want to kill as many US forces as they can.

General Mick Bednarek is a bulldog scrapper, a quiet professional, who stays engaged, and is highly respected in the Division. All Americans should be proud of him and the 25th ID. Damn fine officer.

Posted by Besoeker 2007-06-25 10:29|| 2007-06-25 10:29|| Front Page Top

#10 From an interview with LTC Gregory Baker, deputy commander, 25th CAB
The operation is going well. Weve sealed up Baqouba and are clearing the neighborhoods and streets.

This is very much a joint effort with the Iraqi Security Forces. The I/As are patrolling with our soldiers, and then the I/Ps move in and keep the area secured. We are getting a lot of intelligence from the locals.

This is our first use of combined arms doctrine with the Iraqi Army. Weve got a command and control unit with the ISF, weve got translators, and we bring in air support as requested and as necessary. The 5th Iraqi Div is integrated into our fight.

We need to clear this area quickly, and then we need to stay.

This is high-intensity combat. The first days were very intense; there were 4- 5 hour engagements where our M1-Abrams are engaging insurgents holed up. We brought both fixed and rotary assets to help blast them out. Were also using indirect fire from our artillery batteries.

From the Army Air point of view, this is the first time weve used this new mix of rotary and fixed wing with unmanned aerial vehicles. This exponentially increases the effectiveness of the ground forces tempo across the board.

A large part of Al Qaeda in Iraq did bolt before we attacked, but we know who and where they are, and we will be refocusing our ops on them shortly

Posted by Sherry 2007-06-25 12:24|| 2007-06-25 12:24|| Front Page Top

#11 Woozle: suggest you read Michael Yon and others who are actually there before drawing conclusions.

(Additional hint: Cindy Sheehan is not a reliable source.)

Posted by Mike 2007-06-25 12:50|| 2007-06-25 12:50|| Front Page Top

#12 TW, I found your link to the eleven resolutions very interesting. I prefer number ten, but different countries will have to choose a method of dealing with them. Specifically, Israel, who is in imminent danger and India, who can and will get tough. Between these two, and necessary support from the US, UK, Australia and some others, an effective violent method of dealing with Islamic fundamentalism may drive it out of modern civilization. But, I personally assume nuclear weapons must be used.
It is stressful to work with Iraqis who by nature will sell their souls for a slice of pizza and a beer. So few of them have any honor, (as defined by western standards). It's as if we were different species, like Vulcans and Klingons, unable to understand each others rules of engagement. But, Islam has taught to upset civility by doing the totally unexpected....a brilliant move. Mohammed was no fool, he was the devil, the personification of evil.
Imagine if we fought them by their methods. Car bombs in Mecca, poison gas in mosques, random sniper shots whenever muzzies are seen on the streets, lethal injections when they go to hospitals, release of deadly disease among their crowds, random missle or morter attacks, anyone in a burka or praying at certain times would be a target. That would be item 12 on the list, except it is against reason to become such bloodthirsty killers.

Posted by wxjames 2007-06-25 20:10|| 2007-06-25 20:10|| Front Page Top

#13 We've yet to try Door #9.

INTIMIDATION / DETERRENCE:
We could respond to terrorist attacks on American soil with extravagently disproportionate retaliation against the cities and infrastructure of the Muslim world: kill a thousand of us, and we'll kill a million of you. Repeated often enough, and brutally enough, this might eventually deter them from further terrorist attacks.

It remains a toss-up between Door #9 and Door #10

EXPULSION & QUARANTINE:
We could outlaw Islam within the U.S. and expel all Muslims, citizens or not. Forbid entry into the U.S.-- even for brief visits-- to all Muslims regardless of their country of origin and to all nationals, regardless of religion, from countries that are predominantly Muslim. Seal the Canadian and Mexican borders tight with orders to shoot to kill, and NOT bother asking questions later.

I do believe that David D. has things in the right order. The whole idea of expulsion and containment has been implementedwithin legal and current military limitationsfor many years now and to little effect. Our judicial tools are inadequate to the task. Likewise, our military will seems ill-suited to cordoning off a major portion of the MME (Muslim Middle East). Witness how poorly America is dealing with its own illegal immigrant population and then ask yourself how well we could cope with the enhanced legalistic burdens of expulsion based upon putative religious grounds.

Between those selfsame legalistic or military burdens and Islam's adamant refusal to respect any and all Western wartime conventions, it is long past tea for us to begin giving Muslims a dose of their own medicine. The 9-11 atrocity's extravagant display of hostility for Western culture needs to be answered with a resolute demonstration of exactly what sort of price tag comes attached to such evil. Overturning the Taliban's Afghani applecart did little or nothing to notify the Saudismajor players in the 9-11 attacksof our intense displeasure.

Disproportionate retaliation is one of the only available military responses which has any economy of scale. It will generate one key feature which all other efforts have failed to do; Namely, evince Muslim displeasure with their jihadist leadership. The vast majority of Islam's followers have yet to demonstrate any dissatisfaction with where jihadism is steering their faith. It is upon us to begin a campaign of massive retaliation that imposes the most severe penalties for jihad against the West. It must be made clear that continued abdication of their collective fate will only summon Armageddon. Our retaliation must be so severe as to compel Muslims to begin the onerous task of housecleaning that they have cheerfully surrendered into less-than-competent Western hands.

We need to make it explicitly clear that any failure to expunge terrorism, shari'a law and taqiyya from Islam's doctrinal role call will result in Door #11.

EXTERMINATION:
We could end this 1,400 year struggle between Islam and the West once and for all, with a war that would last barely a half-hour: simply nuke the entire Islamic world and then let our descendents inherit the guilt from murdering a billion people.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-25 21:17|| 2007-06-25 21:17|| Front Page Top

#14 You're a genocidal maniac.

Posted by Darrell 2007-06-25 21:58|| 2007-06-25 21:58|| Front Page Top

#15 And you're a pissant handwringer. Those options weren't anything I came up with, they're the product of one of Rantburg's own MODERATORS. Go piss up a rope until you have some actual suggestions. You love to get on my case but remain mute when others suggest far more unpleasant things. You're an opportunistic bottom feeder.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-25 23:31|| 2007-06-25 23:31|| Front Page Top

#16 Tragically, Darrell, if what we're doing now fails, we'll either have to surrender completely or go to extreme methods. Please, please read Dave D's list at the link, remembering that he's our goldenrod coloured moderator and a crackerjack engineer. The thing gave me nightmares for days, but then I really do empathise entirely too much for my own comfort. But in the end I couldn't find an argument to counter his logic. That's why it's so important not to slow down or quit now, because we will have to go back, and then we'll have to make the really hard choices.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-25 23:43|| 2007-06-25 23:43|| Front Page Top

#17 Word, trailing wife.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-25 23:46|| 2007-06-25 23:46|| Front Page Top

#18 I'm glad you found the Conjectures useful, wxjames. So you've dealt with Iraqis,then? What do you think of Michael Yon's and Bill Roggio's observations?

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-25 23:47|| 2007-06-25 23:47|| Front Page Top

#19 Words are pretty much all I've got, Zenster. ;-) Unlike so many that I'm proud to know here. My prayer these days is that what seems to be working, however much less than ideally, does actually work so that we don't have to go down the list. My other prayer, besides the one that Israel survives the current craziness, is that if we get to that point, we actually do what must be done, because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

And with that I'll wish you and the rest of those Rantburgers still awake a good night. May your sleep be restful, may you awaken refreshed.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-25 23:54|| 2007-06-25 23:54|| Front Page Top

23:54 trailing wife
23:52 Icerigger
23:47 CrazyFool
23:47 trailing wife
23:46 Zenster
23:43 trailing wife
23:41 Zenster
23:37 Gary and the Samoyeds
23:35 Gary and the Samoyeds
23:31 Zenster
23:30 Gary and the Samoyeds
23:24 Gary and the Samoyeds
23:23 trailing wife
23:23 RD
23:19 trailing wife
23:19 Gary and the Samoyeds
23:16 DarthVader
23:11 3dc
23:10 trailing wife
23:08 RD
23:08 Gary and the Samoyeds
22:35 Frank G
22:25 ccat
22:23 Barbara Skolaut