Article

2007-06-23 Home Front: WoT

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11128 views ] Top

#1 Dunno. Professional soldiers actually like the heightened perceptions that the fear of battle elicits. Enough crave it to sustain the US army. However, there has to be an alternative to patrols through IED country. They have the exact opposite effect of the Vietnam War's Search and Destroy variety. Urban warfare can be a morale killer. Hitler had almost nothing after Stalingrad.

Posted by McZoid 2007-06-23 04:13|| 2007-06-23 04:13|| Front Page Top

#2 Not sure I understand what you're getting at here, McZoid.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 06:05|| 2007-06-23 06:05|| Front Page Top

#3 Nothing new about that. Civilized societis do not produce good soldiers.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-06-23 07:06|| 2007-06-23 07:06|| Front Page Top

#4 ltns, lotp.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-06-23 08:41|| 2007-06-23 08:41|| Front Page Top

#5 Hi, NS. Yeah, I'm back supporting the Mod Squad while Fred does the heavy technical lifting at the Burg.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 08:44|| 2007-06-23 08:44|| Front Page Top

#6 Simply stated, a generation raised on junk food, medicated with psychotropic drugs, prone to criminal behavior, unaccustomed to physical activity and with marginal academic skills--is simply a poor fit for the U.S. military.

Betcha if you imposed this map over a similar map showing recruitment by proportion of county population you'd find more of those 'unfit' in the blue counties. And you'll probably find a higher level of recruitment of those 'fit' occurring in the red counties. Don't sweat it. There a birth rate relationship biased in favor of the red counties as well. Why do you think the reps from the blue counties are desperate to get 12 million new voters on the rolls?

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-06-23 09:24|| 2007-06-23 09:24|| Front Page Top

#7 Send in more contractors!

Posted by Besoeker 2007-06-23 11:28|| 2007-06-23 11:28|| Front Page Top

#8 Procopius2k, you're right of course. But it is a worry for the future of the country, and (from the stats I'm seeing right now) also for military recruiting.

One thing Cotton doesn't mention is hearing loss among potential recruits. Headphones / earbuds w/ iPods daily, not just at concerts. Crank up the volume and there's more damage than some might think. Add in kids interested in shooting, but who blow off good ear protection in their teens.

But the biggie is lack of discipline and ambition. We have far too many kids even in red states who have never been really challenged academically, socially or culturally ... kids who are physically, morally and mentally flabby.

Yeah, I'm middle aged. ;-)

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 11:42|| 2007-06-23 11:42|| Front Page Top

#9 However, there has to be an alternative to patrols through IED country.

There is. Astride technological advances, ground penetrating radar is becoming far more economical. There is no reason why such detection systems can't be lofted on drones to prowl roads used by our troops in hostile territory. With UAV technology undergoing a similar cost-performance decline, 24/7 surveillance should cease to be a challenge as well. DARPA's competition to devise wholely automated driverless surface vehicles could yield unmanned minesweeping "decoys" to draw IED attacks as well.

They have the exact opposite effect of the Vietnam War's Search and Destroy variety. Urban warfare can be a morale killer.

Iraq has provided an important test-bed for new strategies and advanced military technology. However, I'm still obliged to speculate that certain levels of urban conflict will continue to rely upon the time-tested method of saturation bombardment. There is every reason to believe that the entire MME (Muslim Middle East) will need to be subdued by force. A house-to-house and one-bullet-at-a-time strategy will not be viable in such circumstances. The military remains constrained by political limitations upon how and in what degree the enemy may be prosecuted. If we are ever to have any hope of defeating Islamic terrorism, wholesale revision of these crippling politically correct guidelines must happen.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-23 12:11|| 2007-06-23 12:11|| Front Page Top

#10 Like marriage/divorce, the population is splitting on exercise and self-discipline. The bright, ambitious children (Rantburg offspring being the perfect example) are also the ones in multiple sports from kindergarten on, disciplined in their lives and their academics, not lounging on the couch drinking soda and eating junk food -- who's got time for that? -- and all the other things that make for ideal recruiting. The rest are... otherwise. Which makes the average statistics look dreadful, just as the divorce statistics look dreadful until one realizes how very many people are still happily in their first marriage, which means that the others maintain their optimism despite actual experience.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-23 12:26|| 2007-06-23 12:26|| Front Page Top

#11 I've always dreamt of sending my kids to war.

Posted by 8872 2007-06-23 12:52|| 2007-06-23 12:52|| Front Page Top

#12 Amazing someone without a spine or testicles could reproduce. What can't science do?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-06-23 12:57|| 2007-06-23 12:57|| Front Page Top

#13 8872, few dream of sending their kids to war.

But some of us believe our way of life, and the lives of our loved ones and neighbors, are worth fighting to defend. And we are proud when our sons and daughters chose to put set aside easy routines, comfortable surroundings and higher salaries to risk their own lives on behalf of others.

You strike me, from the tone of your comments, as being younger than I. Perhaps you haven't yet come up against the reality that there is always death and loss to encounter, sooner or later. The death of parents, spouses, friends. A child diagnosed with an incurable illness. Or other losses.

War is a horrible thing. But it is not the only, or even the most, horrible thing. A lack of integrity is worse. So too is having nothing and no one who is loved so much that defending them is worth more than ease or life itself.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 13:26|| 2007-06-23 13:26|| Front Page Top

#14 You put way too much faith in today's politicians.

Go ahead, send your kids with their hands tied to get blown up by IEDs.

Posted by 8872 2007-06-23 13:57|| 2007-06-23 13:57|| Front Page Top

#15 It has nothing to do with politicians, 8872. My info on the situation comes from having been in the middle east in years past, plus current info from those there now.

But it also comes from looking a wider history and from knowing what I think is worth defending.

I'm sorry for you, that you don't have something equally priceless. It's obvious that's so, for you cannot bring yourself to do anything more than gloatingly make snide digs that you hope will bring pain.

Perhaps at some point in your life you will rise up to love and and to earn being loved deeply. If so, at that point you'll understand. Until then, I'm afraid that you are deaf and blind to these matters. You see only the surface - which is real enough, but by no means the whole truth or even the most important part of it.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 14:03|| 2007-06-23 14:03|| Front Page Top

#16 Your smug attitude, pride and narrowmindedness astound me. But it ceased to be surprising anymore.

You know, I am so damn proud of our Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who said recently:
"I don't want to send people on a mission if the opposition is going to, at home, undercut the dangerous work they're doing in the field."

Here's a leader who doesn't take the lives of our soldiers for granted. If he meant those words sincerely, then he has my support to extend the mission however long he wants. See the difference? I doubt it.

Posted by 8872 2007-06-23 14:40|| 2007-06-23 14:40|| Front Page Top

#17 8872, you haven't a clue, perhaps, that you are speaking to the wife of a retired career military man.

Or what each of us is doing personally in the current struggle. Or who our friends and colleagues are, or those we love who are younger and in theater right now.

Those I love and care about and know personally who are or have been in combat over the last few years is, I suspect, much higher than those you've even met who serve.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 14:46|| 2007-06-23 14:46|| Front Page Top

#18 Disproportionate retaliation against guerrillas worked in the Malay campaign against Communists. Once Malay harborers of terrorists became aware that their village could be burned in retaliation, they began reporting the presence of the enemy. In Iraq, we have been impeded by the belief that use of heavy bombs against sniper nests, might lead to civilian recruitment to al-Qaeda in Iraq. The reverse is true. "Liveleak" and other sites post numerous examples where videos of successful sniper attacks on US troops, have been used in recruitment videos. Also, we are allowing those videos to be sold openly throughout Iraq. That indulgence drives steel into the backs of the enemy.

Posted by McZoid 2007-06-23 14:52|| 2007-06-23 14:52|| Front Page Top

#19 #16 "I don't want to send people on a mission if the opposition is going to, at home, undercut the dangerous work they're doing in the field."

I agree with that, 8872, unfortunately, our 'opposition' leaves us with little choice. To them, winning elections is more improtant then winning wars. My youngest son was in Iraq and proud he was there for their first free elections in a long time.

Posted by Bobby 2007-06-23 15:04|| 2007-06-23 15:04|| Front Page Top

#20 8872 doesn't have anything priceless. He's Canadian, lives in Vancouver, and has forgotten what his grandfathers learned at hard cost in WWII, and his great-grandfathers learned in WWI.

He prob'ly thinks the sales of poppies on Remembrance Day is a right-wing scam.

Some things in life are worth defending. Some things are worth protecting. You put your life on the line for some things.

You may not consider liberating 50 million people from tyranny and genocide to be worth it, 8872.

But we do.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-06-23 15:16|| 2007-06-23 15:16|| Front Page Top

#21 You may not consider liberating 50 million people from tyranny and genocide to be worth it, 8872. But we do.

You lost me. Are you talking about Iraq? Where'd you get the 50 million from? You can't be talking about WW2 because yesterday you didn't deem it worthy to be concerned about roughly 3 million people.

Posted by 8872 2007-06-23 16:57|| 2007-06-23 16:57|| Front Page Top

#22 This screed has been echoed for decades if not centuries.

As long as we don't abort the next Patton, etc. there should not be a problem. Junk food started when? Criminal behavior started when?

What I'm hearing is that we have the most valiant, intelligent military ever, so what gives?

Besides, the force multipliers are conducted by joy stick.

Posted by Captain America 2007-06-23 17:19|| 2007-06-23 17:19|| Front Page Top

#23 What I'm hearing is that we have the most valiant, intelligent military ever, so what gives?

We do - but recruiters and trainers are noting patterns that concern them and which they have to overcome to get there. And the requirements have gone up a lot too - the days of the simple grunt are way past.

the force multipliers are conducted by joy stick.

Yup. And that helps. Although the teleoperated UAVs depend more than one might think on cockpit skills learned in the air. Or so I've been told.

Of course, the guy telling me that was a Harrier pilot so ..... ;-)

Posted by lotp 2007-06-23 17:26|| 2007-06-23 17:26|| Front Page Top

#24 8872, if you read that quote you posted with any degree of intellectual honesty, its obvious he is saying that he doesn't want to send troops on a mission because of the political heat back home.

Basically, he's giving into the political opposition so he doesn't have to fight them.

And that's the difference, his statement is one of preemptive surrender. For the purpose of politics.

If that behavior makes you proud, you sir, lack spine.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-06-23 18:27|| 2007-06-23 18:27|| Front Page Top

#25 8872, we liberated 50 million people -- the people of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Now it might be that they won't stay liberated. Human nature, culture, religion are powerful things, such that the people there may throw away what they have today.

That doesn't change the fact that we helped free these people from two terrible tyrannies, the Taliban and the Ba'ath.

And yesterday, I was pointing out that allowing the Poles to go back in time to settle old scores was the precise way in which mankind would get stuck in tit-for-tat forevermore. It wasn't three million, it was 60 million (give or take a few million) who died in that damned war so that you and I and others could sit around coomputers and debate eachh other. However unhappy the Poles are today with voting arrangements in the EU, it's wrong to go back in time and demand retribution like that.

That was the point, though perhaps you're sarcasm-impaired and missed it.

Our kids will go out there and defend others. They've done it many times already and they'll do it again. Yours will to, if Mr. Harper can bring your country to be true to its founding principles.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-06-23 18:39|| 2007-06-23 18:39|| Front Page Top

#26 #16 Your smug attitude... and narrowmindedness astound me.

What astounds me is your unimpended ability to project, 8872. It is possible that you are not even aware of it, although I doubt that. More likely you are into scoring rhetorical points, hoping that your strawmen and projections would have such a chutzpa that they would stick.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-06-23 18:43|| 2007-06-23 18:43|| Front Page Top

#27 Enjoy your Dhimmitude 8872.

Apparently the huge Muslim terrorist ring in Canada escaped your roving eye.

Posted by Icerigger 2007-06-23 19:19|| 2007-06-23 19:19|| Front Page Top

#28 Back to the problem for a sec.
I think one simple change would start the reverse of the trend.
That is, separate the boys from the girls in school up to grade 11. Boys will compete both physically and acedemically with passion. To make things even more serious, awards could be dangled for superior achievement in both fields, like varsity wrestler who makes high honor role, etc.
I agree with the comment about hearing loss. Parents have to be informed and take action.
I was always a coach for my kids teams and I noticed that many kids are just dropped off and picked up later. Without the urging and approval from the parents these kids went through the motions but never became outstanding, except kids who are new to the area and have something to prove. So, mixing the kids in new environments is also a quick fix for this growing complacency.

Posted by wxjames 2007-06-23 20:04|| 2007-06-23 20:04|| Front Page Top

#29 So as a coach you preferred the parents to stay and get involved at practices, or do you mean to cheer at the games, wxjames? I used to volunteer to be the conditioning/stretching coach for the trailing daughters' soccer teams, but I sometimes worried that I wasn't giving them enough independence. They appear to be doing all right, and as a result none of the girls on their teams was ever seriously injured, but one still worries.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-23 21:57|| 2007-06-23 21:57|| Front Page Top

23:58 Zenster
23:11 lotp
23:02 Frank G
22:57 trailing wife
22:55 trailing wife
22:55 trailing wife
22:50 Zenster
22:50 trailing wife
22:46 Zenster
22:34 Zhang Fei
22:21 Alaska Paul
22:19 Zhang Fei
22:17 trailing wife
22:11 Anguling Turkeyneck9310
22:08 trailing wife
22:06 McZoid
21:57 trailing wife
21:27 Anonymoose
21:21 Angaiger Tojo1904
21:20 Anonymoose
21:02 Sen Harry Reid (D-himmi)
21:01 Zenster
20:52 Pappy
20:42 Broadhead6