Article

2007-06-02 Syria-Lebanon-Iran

Siniora tells terrorists in Lebanon: Surrender or Die

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Fred 2007-06-02 00:00|| || Front Page|| [9 views ] Top

#1 Would Siniora have shown this type of backbone vis-a-vis Fatah al-Islam if Israel had not responded with such forceful retaliation to Hezbollah's last provocation? I highly doubt it.

Surely you're joking. Or delusional.

Don't mistake 'lack of backone' for prudence. Lebanon's army, thanks to the various factions in the country, is deliberately weak. Lebanon has perhaps one fifth of the forces Israel can call up. Of those, a significant majority can't be counted on to fight in certain situation (like, say, against Hesb'allah) It has equipment that is 40-plus years old. It hasn't been in significant combat, as a fighting force, in decades. No close air support (hence the heavy artillery barrages)

Again, don't confuse backbone with prudence. Fatal al-Islam is a 'safe' target. Small. Stupid. Not openly backed by the Paleostinians, Hesb'allah, Syria, or Iran. Even with all that, the Lebanese army is not having an easy time of it.

G*d save me from the armchair generals...

Posted by Pappy 2007-06-02 12:48|| 2007-06-02 12:48|| Front Page Top

#2 Zenster, Islam may be incapable of change but I have hope that many muslims are reasonable people.

The overwhelming preponderance of evidence to date indicates otherwise. If "many Muslims were reasonable people", jihad would not be so wide-spread and counter-jihad would already be happening. It's not.

Even if that means they are considered apostates by the hard-core islamists.

Which they are quite obviously not willing to risk. By default, they allow the jihadists to rule the roost. Something that is entirely unacceptable for the West.

If we can promote the idea (the reality really) that these islamists are just nasty, violent gangsters cloaking themselves with islam then the ordinary muslims can throw off the islamist mantle and, hopefully, get on with (ordinary) life.

While I understand what you're trying to say, the simple fact remains that Islam itself is gangsterism personified. There are no Islamists hijacking any religion. This sort of murder, theft and mayhem is exactly what the Koran preaches and Muslims either tacitly or overtly support such filth.

We have to first give them a chance and if that fails then we have no choice but to utterly defeat them.

Islam has had the last half-decade to improve its image. Nothing of the sort has taken place. In fact, Islam's predations upon the West have only increased over time with little or no corresponding protest from the "moderate" Muslims you seek to defend. How much longer and how many more atrocities do you suggest we should endure before finally putting an end to this farce?

Our way of life or theirs - by force if necessary.

Like I was saying ...

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-02 16:41|| 2007-06-02 16:41|| Front Page Top

#3 Muslims who side with us are, by the definition of their own evil scrolls, no longer Muslims.

As for collective punishment: Either our elected representatives and our security services take responsibility for the job or it will come down to vigilantes. I believe it is likely to be the latter. The peacetards will continue to call al-Qaeda and the like "freedom fighters" and the vigilantes will be called "death squads".

Sticks and stones.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-06-02 17:06|| 2007-06-02 17:06|| Front Page Top

#4 Yes I believe you may be right Zenster. Civilization (and not having to struggle daily for my very existence) has made me soft. The uncomfortable truth is that it will take another terrible atrocity to harden my heart enough to want to take the action that is necessary.

Posted by Gladys 2007-06-02 17:34|| 2007-06-02 17:34|| Front Page Top

#5 Islam is a fake religion that is dangerous to Western life. Declare it a dangerous, subversive illegal organization in the US and other Western countries.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-06-02 18:15|| 2007-06-02 18:15|| Front Page Top

#6 The uncomfortable truth is that it will take another terrible atrocity to harden my heart enough to want to take the action that is necessary.

I'd say, not so much "soft", Gladys, as less willing than others to abandon the traditional sense of humanity that is becoming necessary to correctly deal with Islam. Post 9-11 I took great pains to segregate Islamists from Muslims. Over the last five or more years, Muslims have taken no such pains. The time has come for them to experience the same degree, or greater, of suffering that they insist on inflicting upon us. Only first-hand knowledge of jihad's ultimate consequences will persuade them of the error of their ways.

By withholding proper punishment from Islam's followers, we are literally killing them with kindness. Better to begin genuine retribution now such that they can begin to gain a sense of the danger that jihad has wrought upon their world. To delay our retaliation until they have, through laxity or hostility, enacted a final monstrous atrocity which brings them nuclear annihilation is actually less fair.

Like Trifkovic says:

The elite class has every intention of continuing to fight the war on terrorism without naming the enemy, without revealing his beliefs, without unmasking his intentions, without offending his accomplices, without expelling his fifth columnists, and without ever daring to win.

This is a recipe for disaster. A catastrophe of such dimensions that everybody loses. Muslims, lacking advanced militaries, will suffer worst of all, but this in no way reduces the enormity of how avoidable all of this is, were we to apply comensurate force against Islam right now.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-02 18:36|| 2007-06-02 18:36|| Front Page Top

#7 "Nice" and compassion seem to be taken as a sign of weakness of the West.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-06-02 18:45|| 2007-06-02 18:45|| Front Page Top

#8 Suggestion to Siniora & the Lebanese army:

Kill 'em all - let Baby Asshole and Ahma-dinha-nutjob sort 'em out.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2007-06-02 00:17|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/] 2007-06-02 00:17|| Front Page Top

#9 Skip any surrendering and cut straight to the dieing part.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-02 00:26|| 2007-06-02 00:26|| Front Page Top

#10 Would Siniora have shown this type of backbone vis-a-vis Fatah al-Islam if Israel had not responded with such forceful retaliation to Hezbollah's last provocation?

I highly doubt it.

As the Russians demonstrated with their take-no-prisoners response to Islamist militants in Chechnya, a clear side effect of demonstrating the willingness to use extensive force against radical Islamists is that "moderate" Muslims will only openly oppose the radicals once it becomes ruinous NOT to do so.

In reality, a substantial sector of the populations of many nations in which radical Islamists coexist do not support them. But a tepid response against Islamic militancy will rarely expose these societal divisions.

In essence, the part of the population which could be our greatest ally will only crystallize if we make it clear that we who stand against Islamic insurgents/terrorists are the "strong horse".

Posted by Grumenk Philalzabod0723 2007-06-02 02:34|| 2007-06-02 02:34|| Front Page Top

#11 a clear side effect of demonstrating the willingness to use extensive force against radical Islamists is that "moderate" Muslims will only openly oppose the radicals once it becomes ruinous NOT to do so.

Unfortunately, we are so very far from making it ruinous for Muslims in general that there is little hope of any improvement. The West must overcome its squeamishness about collective punishment and begin to return Islam's favorite strategy in full measure. Only when Muslims feel our pain in equal or greater measure will they even begin to consider cleaning their own house. So far, we are trying to do this for them and making absolute fools of ourselves by doing so. Progress will come only when jihadis are being stacked up behind mosques like so much cordwood.

In essence, the part of the population which could be our greatest ally will only crystallize if we make it clear that we who stand against Islamic insurgents/terrorists are the "strong horse".

GP, while I understand the notion you are attempting to convey, you are severely mistaken if you think that Muslims of any sort will ever be our "ally" in any meaningful way.

The West will always be Islam's eternal enemy. Democracy enshrines sovereignty in the people, something that Islam absolutely will not tolerate with its dedication to theocracy. Self-rule flies in the face of religious law and renders Islam permanently imiscible with modern civilization.

Few Western leaders have as yet fully comprehended this concept and continue to deliver us into Islam's withering embrace.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-02 02:54|| 2007-06-02 02:54|| Front Page Top

#12 GP, while I understand the notion you are attempting to convey, you are severely mistaken if you think that Muslims of any sort will ever be our "ally" in any meaningful way.

I respectfully disagree, and I could cite examples ranging from Muslims who act as translators for the U.S. military, the Iraqis who rose up to battle al Qaeda elements in their towns recently, and the citizens of reasonable countries such as Turkey or Jordan.

Yes, the Quran when interpreted literally is a 7th century handbook for subjugation and Islamic expansion. But just as Christians and Jews have advanced beyond the ancient literal roots and practices of their doctrinal tracts (stoning, eye-for-an-eye as justice, etc.) yet can retain their core beliefs in our modern world, there exist a great many nominal Muslims who can also make such distinctions.

For that reason I retain a degree of optimism that the vicious, backward and militant strains of Islamic thought will one day be superceded and made increasingly irrelevant as Muslim populations lean more toward secularism and rationalism.

The difficult task we face today is in containing the harm and diminishing the influence of the dangerous elements so that we can reach that better future.

Posted by Grumenk Philalzabod0723 2007-06-02 03:40|| 2007-06-02 03:40|| Front Page Top

#13 Muslims who act as translators for the U.S. military

We've also seen a fair share of Muslims in our military who commit murder and treason. The practice of taqiyya makes Muslims wholly unrelaible. Islam's overwhelming inertia with respect to cleaning its own house of jihadist filth is a powerful indicator of what we should expect overall.

the Iraqis who rose up to battle al Qaeda elements in their towns recently

While I appreciate your optimism, GP,there are many experts who would deem it to be misplaced. Just because Iraqis have opposed al Qaeda is no assurance that they intend to assist our own military efforts in any meaningful way. My own view is that they are protecting their turf from rival gangsters with no intention of actually taking on America's enemies.

But just as Christians and Jews have advanced beyond the ancient literal roots and practices of their doctrinal tracts (stoning, eye-for-an-eye as justice, etc.) yet can retain their core beliefs in our modern world, there exist a great many nominal Muslims who can also make such distinctions.

Again, I think you overestimate Islam's capacity for change. Ijtihad literally has no place in modern Islam. Al-Ghazali closed the door upon such innovation and reinterpretation some thousand years ago. Islamic doctrine is trapped in amber with apostasy and death the reward for any attempt at modification.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-02 04:27|| 2007-06-02 04:27|| Front Page Top

#14 Zenster, Islam may be incapable of change but I have hope that many muslims are reasonable people. Even if that means they are considered apostates by the hard-core islamists. If we can promote the idea (the reality really) that these islamists are just nasty, violent gangsters cloaking themselves with islam then the ordinary muslims can throw off the islamist mantle and, hopefully, get on with (ordinary) life.
Well, that's my hope anyway.
We have to first give them a chance and if that fails then we have no choice but to utterly defeat them.

Posted by Gladys 2007-06-02 07:08|| 2007-06-02 07:08|| Front Page Top

#15 It just occurred to me that I sound like Al Q in the above comment - giving the infidels the chance to convert or die. But I guess that is what it all boils down to in the end. Our way of life or theirs - by force if necessary.

Posted by Gladys 2007-06-02 07:39|| 2007-06-02 07:39|| Front Page Top

#16 Hear, hear Gladys!

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-06-02 10:01|| 2007-06-02 10:01|| Front Page Top

10:43 Steve White
10:43 Angaiger Tojo1904
10:42 Pappy
10:42 Steve White
10:39 Drive By Lurker
10:39 JFM
10:38 Steve White
10:30 Matt K.
10:29 DepotGuy
10:28 Steve White
10:27 Grunter
10:27 Anguper Hupomosing9418
10:08 Redneck Jim
10:07 DepotGuy
10:03 John Frum
10:02 Frank G
10:01 Shipman
09:58 Redneck Jim
09:58 Shipman
09:55 Shipman
09:55 Redneck Jim
09:50 Redneck Jim
09:48 Frank G
09:47 Mike