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2007-05-11 Fifth Column

Former LA Times' Baghdad Chief Says Iraqis Are 'Humiliated'

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Posted by Seafarious 2007-05-11 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11141 views ] Top

#1 The presence of the U.S. soldiers is very humiliating to the Iraqis. Even those who, in their minds know that it's necessary to have the soldiers there, at least some kind of force there preventing an all-out civil war from getting even worse...I don't think they appreciate American culture."

If true, these thankless assholes can kneel and service every single one of our troops. I have long suspected such ingratitude and still, somehow, hope that this is not the case. Still, from all that has gone before, it is extremely difficult to imagine that most Iraqis do not view their American liberators as an occupying force. If so, may the fleas of a thousand camels infest their armpits.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-05-11 00:37|| 2007-05-11 00:37|| Front Page Top

#2 STRATEGYPAGE > WHY WWII HASN'T ENDED YET!?. Overseas, US milfors are predomin well-liked - are LIKABLE, WELL-ARMED AND WELL-TRAINED, FEW INCIDENTS AGZ LOCALS, and espec WELL-PAID. Good friendships and good for the local economies.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-05-11 01:32|| 2007-05-11 01:32|| Front Page Top

#3 His assessment of the war ("bodies piling up") doesn't stand up to scrutiny, as it adopts the usual implicit framework that ignores the carnage that was the norm pre-invasion (quieter, but worse) and freezes the clock (it ain't fixed by now, so the entire enterprise can be judged today). And several of the indicators he claims are not improving actually are improving, depending on which part of the country you're talking about. Even, in Anbar, the security situation.

His line about no military solution will put him in good company in the US Army, where military solutions are not in vogue. I think he makes a very interesting point about "surge" resources not matching the needs. So we've gone from a hopeless strategy (hand over to Iraqis instantaneously, rely on political change to magically produce security) that was under-resourced to a dubious strategy (create "breathing room" for Iraqi politicians who can't deliver ANY of the elements doing the killing, no matter how much time they have) that is under-resourced.

He's probably right about general Arab perceptions - which damns them, and affects not a whit the value/desirability of the invasion and regime removal. But at least as excerpted here he falls for the usual problem of not highlighting the cognitive dissonance of Iraqis who couldn't off the old regime on their own, and who can't help much in stopping the predations of their countryment that are now the problem in the country, and who mostly fear our departure any time soon, yet who criticize us for mistakes and failures. He knows better than to let this go by.

Unsurprised but still disappointed to see this. Dealt with him quite a bit over there, and found him smart, likeable, and fair-minded.

Posted by Verlaine 2007-05-11 01:40|| 2007-05-11 01:40|| Front Page Top

#4 Agree, Verlaine. There are times I wonder, "Is it worth it?" And then I think about the islamo-vermin that, for all intents and purposes, appear to be taking the whole of islam back to the 7th century.

Posted by anymouse">anymouse 2007-05-11 01:46|| 2007-05-11 01:46|| Front Page Top

#5 I'm sorry, but if we help you, you'll be humiliated and we can't have that.

Try the Europeans.

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-05-11 02:12|| 2007-05-11 02:12|| Front Page Top

#6 Even better, we'd love to help you, but we know your self-esteem couldn't take it, so just FOAD.

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-05-11 02:13|| 2007-05-11 02:13|| Front Page Top

#7 Yeah, they probably don't like needing a chaperone, but they do. So sounds like they have decided to hate the chaperone. Great. You don't miss the water until the well runs dry. I wonder what they'll think of th good ol' days then.

Posted by gorb 2007-05-11 02:41|| 2007-05-11 02:41|| Front Page Top

#8 The US held the Panama Canal for decades, until it was believed that no other world power would seize it. Similarly, Much of Iraq has to be held for the same reason. Having an elected assembly that is composed of some of the same type of fanatics that carried out the 9-11 slaughter, is hardly conducive to creating a just peace in Iraq. What wasn't in place in 1945, that didn't foster continued belligerence in Japan and Germany? Mosques.

Posted by Sneaze 2007-05-11 04:12|| 2007-05-11 04:12|| Front Page Top

#9 #1 Zenster - why would you believe this journalist? See what Velaine says in #4.

Posted by Bobby 2007-05-11 07:44|| 2007-05-11 07:44|| Front Page Top

#10 #2 "If true, these thankless assholes can kneel and service every single one of our troops."

The journalists should go first.

ONLY AFTER ALL THE ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACKS AT HOME

Posted by Angaitch Cruling1154 2007-05-11 08:24|| 2007-05-11 08:24|| Front Page Top

#11 -- On charges that the press is too negative on Iraq:

Well, I would just say, show me those goods.

For example, is infant mortality going down? Is the number of attacks on U.S. and coalition forces going down?
Are the number of Iraqis who are fleeing the country declining? Is there an increase in employment? So, lets see the facts.

Is there a decrease in the number of U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians being killed day to day? If there is, weve reported it. I mean, if there has been and we put it prominently on page one.

I remember when the recent Baghdad security plan first went into effect, and there was a dramatic decline in the number of sectarian death squad executions, that was on the front page of the Los Angeles Times.

So, I think that the people who say that criticism should at least read our product first.

So, he shows one example in the span of a few sentences where he otherwise just changes the subject. What, exactly, does infant mortality rates and fleeing Iraqis have to do with negative press?

Or maybe this is just too nuanced for me; perhaps ~~Captain Nuance~~ John Kerry can help me on this point...

Posted by Raj 2007-05-11 08:30|| 2007-05-11 08:30|| Front Page Top

#12 On family life and deceiving loved ones

The only thing I believe whole heartedly in the entire piece. Of course one doesn't tell the whole truth to the folks back home -- there is no way they can put it in proper perspective without having been there, under those conditions. When Mr. Wife was hospitalized with amoebic dysentery in India (as is normal, the first symptom is copious rectal bleeding; think blood flood -- very upsetting!), his colleagues called me every single day to lie to me about his condition. It wasn't until years later that I found out about the need to bring in one's own sealed needles because the hospital nurses only have a few to share out for the entire floor (AIDS was a growing concern even then, not to mention more exotic diseases), the insects skittering along the walls, the need to bring in trustworthy food and water... and I'm quite certain I still don't know all.

One tells the happy stories and the quaint ones, but not the things that would worry them when there's nothing they can do to help. On the other hand, not telling the tales that give management in the home office a real feel for the situation on the ground strikes me as reportorial malpractice. How can they know what's really important, what the trends are as opposed to the details of individual events, if they do not have an accurate understanding of the overall atmosphere?

Posted by trailing wife 2007-05-11 08:52|| 2007-05-11 08:52|| Front Page Top

#13 It begs the question, "Do you want help and deal with a little humiliation, or do you want to be glassed so we don't have to deal with you and your terrorist fucking issues?"

Your choice.

Plus, I believe this waste of skin and oxygen as much as I believe code Pinko.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-05-11 09:30|| 2007-05-11 09:30|| Front Page Top

#14 like so much "reporting", this smacks of repeating Sunni talking points. Of course their humiliated! They went from being in charge to being a tiny minority in a democracy.

As for the Shia, they've never had it so good and they know it. If you read Iraqi blogs, you can usually tell who's sunni and who's shia: The sunni always complain about everything and the Shia say things have never been better (excepting security).

Al

Posted by Frozen Al">Frozen Al 2007-05-11 09:32|| 2007-05-11 09:32|| Front Page Top

#15 I'd say to Borzou Daragahi, go tell your problems to your main stream media fraternity of which you are a member and the liberal left wing of the dhemmicrat party. Come to think of it there is only a liberal left wing now. You are an Irania-born freelance writer which makes you and what you say suspect immediately.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-05-11 12:40|| 2007-05-11 12:40|| Front Page Top

#16 I might further add, quit whining and get your shit together. Give up your self-indulgent sanctimony. There are soldiers dying for Iraq to be free. Do you give a shit about them and their families?

Posted by JohnQC 2007-05-11 12:43|| 2007-05-11 12:43|| Front Page Top

#17 I quit right after "Former LA Times' Baghdad Chief Says..."

Posted by tu3031 2007-05-11 13:39|| 2007-05-11 13:39|| Front Page Top

#18 The German "race" was "humiliated" at Versaille (with terms more lenient than they had granted the Russians less than a year previous). And that is a lie too many people still accept to this day; the Nazi party, the War and the Holocaust notwithstanding. A little thing like free elections is not going to stand in the way of some leftard experiencing vicarious humiliation.

Socialism is not a political ideology. It is a psycho-sexual pathology. In this respect it is the same as islam.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-05-11 15:06|| 2007-05-11 15:06|| Front Page Top

#19 Why would anyone believe a journalist. All journalists are 1. Traitors 2. Liars 3. Hate America 4. Support Jihadi's in thought, word and deed and 5. Support Democrates - The party of traitors, rapists, murderers, and bigots. Now occasionally some journalist will prove that he/she is not these things, but until that happens, I consider all of the above to be true.

Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick 2007-05-11 15:08|| 2007-05-11 15:08|| Front Page Top

#20 The only reason Iraq is not a paradise by now is because the country is filled with Iraqis.

Yes, many of them are decent citizens who want a productive life but several million of them are willing to destroy the entire country rather than forge a better existence together.

In truth, they should feel humiliated at seeing what a hell they have made of their country after being handed freedom from a brutal dictator.

Posted by Grumenk Philalzabod0723 2007-05-11 17:55|| 2007-05-11 17:55|| Front Page Top

#21 -- On charges that the press is too negative on Iraq:

Well, I would just say, show me those goods.

OK, piehole apologist of Saddam, try this -

"Nevertheless, Iraq's economy is booming. Many Iraqis--denied employment under Saddam Hussein's regime for reasons of ethnicity, sectarian identity, or for refusal to join the Baath party, now have jobs. Iraqis' own private investment, aided with capital remitted from family members abroad, has enabled the private sector to boom. Banks, restaurants, and furniture stores occupy what just last year were empty lots or abandoned storefronts. In August 2005, new business registrations have topped 30,000; this figure does not include the number of start-ups which still ignore Iraqi-registration rules.

Ordinary Iraqis are financially better off now than they were at any time in the past two decades. According to World Bank and International Monetary Fund estimates, per capita income has doubled since 2003. Iraq's per capita gross domestic product is today almost twice that of Yemen and nearing that of Egypt and Syria, hardly a sign of failure in a country in which, just three years ago, antiwar groups insisted children were starving en masse. Statistics aside, the Iraqi economic boom is apparent to anyone who visits an Iraqi market. Not only are appliances and luxuries in the stores, but customers are actually purchasing them."
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.23402,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-05-11 19:18|| 2007-05-11 19:18|| Front Page Top

#22 Zenster - why would you believe this journalist? See what Velaine says in #4.

It's not just this particular journalist, Bobby. Far too much of what is happening in Iraq demonstrates a monumental level of ingratitude and willingness to participate in the most mindless tribal savagery imaginable. Verlaine's excellent comments only serve to cement these perceptions.

(create "breathing room" for Iraqi politicians who can't deliver ANY of the elements doing the killing, no matter how much time they have)

This one succinct observation, with which I agree, is something that makes me ready to abandon all hope. Were it not for the necessity of having a forward base in the Middle East, I'd be ready to let Iraq stew in its own murderous vitriol. Sure, I'd love to see America succeed in setting up a stable democracy in an Islamic country. All indications point towards this being one enormous pipe dream. Islam is so inimical to democracy and Western notions of liberty that only the total deconsctruction of this hostile and Neanderthal creed will serve to release the Middle East's population from such a living Hell.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-05-11 19:27|| 2007-05-11 19:27|| Front Page Top

#23 Excalibur:

Yeah, Lenin et al signed away most of Russia, west of Moscow. Hearts-and-minds crap is the worst poison pill ever to afflict Western Civilization. Let's slaughter terrorists, and forget about everything else.

Posted by Sneaze 2007-05-11 20:56|| 2007-05-11 20:56|| Front Page Top

#24 Let's slaughter terrorists, and forget about everything else.

Works for me.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-05-11 23:04|| 2007-05-11 23:04|| Front Page Top

23:30 Chomock Wittlesbach8440
23:27 Anguper Hupomosing9418
23:24 JosephMendiola
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22:53 Alaska Paul
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22:31 Asymmetrical T
22:28 gorb
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22:08 Deacon Blues
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21:53 trailing wife
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