Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Tue 04/17/2007 View Mon 04/16/2007 View Sun 04/15/2007 View Sat 04/14/2007 View Fri 04/13/2007 View Thu 04/12/2007 View Wed 04/11/2007
1
2007-04-17 Syria-Lebanon-Iran
France ‘was seconds’ from downing Israeli jet
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Steve White 2007-04-17 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Israel should tell France to FOAD on this one.
Posted by Mike N. 2007-04-17 00:13||   2007-04-17 00:13|| Front Page Top

#2 This really pisses me off. There is only one reason for France to bring AA with them to Lebanon.
Posted by Mike N. 2007-04-17 00:19||   2007-04-17 00:19|| Front Page Top

#3 General Alain Pellegrini, made it clear that he considered these incursions violated the UN Security Council resolution

Right. Anyone who violates these agreements should be nuked.
Posted by gorb 2007-04-17 00:21||   2007-04-17 00:21|| Front Page Top

#4 RUSSIA > WARNS ISRAEL ABOUT CONFLICT WITH SYRIA. D ***ng it, MISCALCULATION OF OPPOSING STRENGTHS may lead to incidents and finally a full-scale Israeli-Syrian War in ME, ergo Russia must continue to arm everybody and anybody, espec enemies of the West. And now you know why its Dubya-USA's fault.
Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-04-17 00:31||   2007-04-17 00:31|| Front Page Top

#5 They may have been "seconds" from firing, but in any duel between French fire control and Israeli countermeasures, my money's on the Israelis.
Posted by Mike 2007-04-17 00:34||   2007-04-17 00:34|| Front Page Top

#6 Two words: French Fried.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-17 01:46||   2007-04-17 01:46|| Front Page Top

#7 They were perhaps ""second from" shooting; not the same thing as "downing". Presumeably, the two F-15's were armed and dangerous, and might have taken offense at being shot at.
Posted by Bobby 2007-04-17 06:38||   2007-04-17 06:38|| Front Page Top

#8 Thanks Zen, needed the laugh. Throwing hat into the ring, French Toast.
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 08:48||   2007-04-17 08:48|| Front Page Top

#9 I agree - why do the UN peacekeepers need AA for? They usually do f**k all in conflicts except take copious notes and photos they end up selling to Al-J and The Guardian. Maybe it was to keep the Hezbo's air force carrier pigeons grounded.
Posted by Jack is Back">Jack is Back  2007-04-17 09:00||   2007-04-17 09:00|| Front Page Top

#10 Good point Mike.
Posted by plainslow 2007-04-17 09:04||   2007-04-17 09:04|| Front Page Top

#11 #5 They may have been "seconds" from firing, but in any duel between French fire control and Israeli countermeasures, my money's on the Israelis.

Which would have played havoc on French foreign arms sales. If you're going to buy junk, just buy Soviet Russian, Chinese, former eastern block stuff because it is at least cheaper junk.
Posted by Procopius2k 2007-04-17 09:31||   2007-04-17 09:31|| Front Page Top

#12 My money is on the IAF. They wrote the book on how to take out SAM sites in 1982.
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2007-04-17 09:43||   2007-04-17 09:43|| Front Page Top

#13 And the French were just seconds from massive vigilante retaliation from the Sons of Heinlein.
Posted by Excalibur 2007-04-17 10:26||   2007-04-17 10:26|| Front Page Top

#14 Hah! As if.

More like: "The French were seconds away from wetting their pants, since they haven't the balls to actually shoot at a warplane."
Posted by mojo">mojo  2007-04-17 10:27||   2007-04-17 10:27|| Front Page Top

#15 That would have been silly. And expensive. For France. Israel has its whole military at Lebanon's doorstep. France's military is several time zones away.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2007-04-17 10:36|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2007-04-17 10:36|| Front Page Top

#16 The French were just two seconds away from launching AA against two Israeli F-15s and about thirty seconds away from losing a SAM site and declaring de facto war on Israel.

It's my understanding that most air forces, including the US and Israel have standing ROE's that state they are free to retaliate if fired upon from the ground (got the US into a bit of trouble on the western border of Iraq and in Afghanistan at least once or twice as I recall).

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg  2007-04-17 10:46|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com]  2007-04-17 10:46|| Front Page Top

#17 the french were prob too drunk too actually fire the AA. if anyone else has seen the vid i have you know what i'm talking about
Posted by sinse 2007-04-17 11:03||   2007-04-17 11:03|| Front Page Top

#18 The recent announcement that Pellegrini will be replaced in overall command next month

When was the announcement made? Before or after the incidents? Little Napolian Pellegrini wanted to show what a big man he was against the Israelis but his UN superiors decided he wasn't big enough.
Posted by Angaiger Tojo1904 2007-04-17 11:29||   2007-04-17 11:29|| Front Page Top

#19 Israel should give the Phrench exactly 24 hours to remove the AAA and Missile sites because they are percieved as a CLEAR provacation and threat to the free exercise of Israeli self defense. After 24 hours the Israelis should elimintate them. FYI I will give you BIG odds on the Phrench firing on Israeli Aircraft.
Posted by Cyber Sarge 2007-04-17 12:08||   2007-04-17 12:08|| Front Page Top

#20 As this was happening, a pair of Israeli reconnaissance aircraft circled over the headquarters of the French battalion in the Jabal Maroun area, possibly taking aerial photographs there.

Israel clearly knows who the enemy is.
Posted by xbalanke 2007-04-17 12:48||   2007-04-17 12:48|| Front Page Top

#21 Help me out here.

If you are two seconds from firing, that means you already have the radars turned on, right?

Sounds like '82 to me.
Posted by Iblis 2007-04-17 13:17||   2007-04-17 13:17|| Front Page Top

#22 Strong odeur of merde. 2 seconds from firing means radar lock, and very likely, a HARM riding down the beam.
Posted by ed 2007-04-17 13:50||   2007-04-17 13:50|| Front Page Top

#23 Back up a moment, please. What happened in '82, and what is a HARM?
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-17 14:02||   2007-04-17 14:02|| Front Page Top

#24 HARM: High speed Anti-Radiation Missile. designed to take out fixed radar sites by locking onto the radar emissions when the radar lights up an aircraft. The missile, one locked, follows that course to the target.
That is half your answer, TW, i will leave the history part to our other experts ( i can't remember what happened last week....)
Posted by USN, Ret. 2007-04-17 14:17||   2007-04-17 14:17|| Front Page Top

#25 But in the final, critical, last seconds leading up to...(yawn)...that decisive french surrendering known the world over kicked into action!
Posted by Vinegar Ulogum7733 2007-04-17 14:18||   2007-04-17 14:18|| Front Page Top

#26 '82 was the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. The IAF destroyed the Syrian SAM sites in the Bekaa valley. An area most "experts" said couldn't be done with jets since the missiles were so advanced.
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2007-04-17 14:24||   2007-04-17 14:24|| Front Page Top

#27 There are better versions of the HARM nowdays. The old HARMs could be beaten by the radar operator turning the radar off. Nowdays the missile goes for the last known position of the radar or can go into a loiter mode so when the radar comes back on, even in a different position if it is on a truck, the missile will re-target and take it out.
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2007-04-17 14:26||   2007-04-17 14:26|| Front Page Top

#28 Thanks, USN, Ret., Darth Vader. I was busy getting married and buying a first house in 1982, which distracted me from the outside world. It sounds like the French behaviour was... unwise.
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-17 14:28||   2007-04-17 14:28|| Front Page Top

#29 Frecnh behavior certainly didn't happen at all; the last time this was reported by french authority, neither the UN record, neither Israel could comment on the supposed incident, because there was no record of it (source from memory being the Mena Press website, whom I generally find trustful in their reporting).

So, this is Israel getting intel aboput what's going on and possibly rattling the cage, french military probably not being happy about it, but IMHO not doing stoopid stuff like this (except in reports from "sources in Paris), and shiraq's France doing what it does best, posturing to try to continue to exist, in the ME and elsewhere.
Posted by anonymous5089 2007-04-17 14:38||   2007-04-17 14:38|| Front Page Top

#30 This makes no sense, but we are talking French here.
Why would the French fire a missle at an Israeli fighter, or even threaten too ? Either France is in league with Hezbollah, or France is looking for a fight it can't win. If the latter, then it makes no sense, but if the former, then we need to reestablish the peace-keeping force, which consists of all Islamic armies and the French.
If all the UN peace-keepers are anti-Israel, then they had better dig deeper bunkers, and have a going away party for the French.
The price of this 'ceasefire' is coming due.
Posted by wxjames 2007-04-17 16:09||   2007-04-17 16:09|| Front Page Top

#31 too bad they didn't just blow the french too hell then we wouldn't have too discuss it. something more interesting in other words
Posted by sinse 2007-04-17 16:39||   2007-04-17 16:39|| Front Page Top

#32 What happened in '82

As to the 1982 Bekaa Valley incident, it was an early use of UAV or drone technology that allowed the Iraelis to triumph. A monitoring drone was flown up the valley in advance. This triggered all of the anti-aircraft guidance radars to light up and illuminate the drone. Using telemetry, the radio frequencies and locations were transmitted back to waiting ground crews who then programmed these settings into both source guided weapons and on-board jamming countermeasures for the Israeli aircraft. As the IDF planes entered the Bekaa all of the installations were preprogrammed for disruption and targeting. The Israeli victory was overwhelming.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-17 16:59||   2007-04-17 16:59|| Front Page Top

#33 Frenchbollah...what will they do when the conflict in Lebanon flares up this summer...will they run like they have done throughout history?
Posted by Unolump Smith8555 2007-04-17 17:10||   2007-04-17 17:10|| Front Page Top

#34 Much of the Syrian AA network was destroyed by IDF Artillery from informatino gathered as described by Zen.
Posted by Shipman">Shipman  2007-04-17 17:28||   2007-04-17 17:28|| Front Page Top

#35 the French must stop any resistance to the rearming of hezbos, which is the UN Plan for Lebanon, that and resuming ethnic cleansing begun in '73.
Posted by Galloways Outcropping 2007-04-17 18:41||   2007-04-17 18:41|| Front Page Top

#36 TW,
As added flavor, I understand that the decoy drone was set up to give the radar signature of an F-15 so the Syrians would use their "real" freguencies. (These info gathering games were played thoughout the Cold War, so militaries developed the habit of using "peacetime" to hide what they'd use when the shooting starts).

Once the Israelis had the info, they proceeded to BBQ the Syrian air defences.

Al
Posted by Frozen Al 2007-04-17 19:00||   2007-04-17 19:00|| Front Page Top

#37 Mmmmmm - Barbeque. :-D
Posted by Elmiger Sinatra5732 2007-04-17 19:52||   2007-04-17 19:52|| Front Page Top

#38 Well, double-crap! Where'd my cookies go?

#37 was me.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut  2007-04-17 19:57|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]  2007-04-17 19:57|| Front Page Top

#39 They got jealous of the barbecue and left.
Posted by Jackal">Jackal  2007-04-17 20:06|| http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]">[http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]  2007-04-17 20:06|| Front Page Top

#40 Israeli Jet "was seconds" From Taking Out French Radar Site.B>

There...fixed it for you.
Posted by OyVey1 2007-04-17 20:55||   2007-04-17 20:55|| Front Page Top

#41 Thanks, everyone -- Rantburg U rulez! Actually, I'd be willing to believe that a5089 is right that this is not much more than posturing by Chiraq and his idiots in Paris. I seem to recall a similar tale about supposedly almost shooting down overflying Israeli jets shortly after the French unit arrived last summer/fall.
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-17 21:53||   2007-04-17 21:53|| Front Page Top

23:57 RD
23:57 Zenster
23:55 JosephMendiola
23:55 fingerinyoureye
23:52 RD
23:51 JosephMendiola
23:49 JosephMendiola
23:45 RD
23:45 JosephMendiola
23:45 djohn66
23:39 JosephMendiola
23:32 Zenster
23:31 JosephMendiola
23:28 Zenster
23:26 Verlaine
23:26 Verlaine
23:26 JosephMendiola
23:25 Zenster
23:24 RD
23:20 JosephMendiola
23:10 RD
23:00 Frank G
22:52 RD
22:46 Zenster









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com