Article

2006-02-22 Europe

France's 'racist' soup kitchens shut down

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Posted by anonymous5089 2006-02-22 04:33|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 If some object to the soupes au cochon, why don't they counter by offering free kebabs?

Posted by Unurong Spaiting6242 2006-02-22 08:52|| 2006-02-22 08:52|| Front Page Top

#2 There are already muslims-only soups serving the chorba dish, which were never deemed "discriminatory" by the authorities... and there also are religious charities reserved for the faithful, either islamic (each mosque has its own charity providing help for muslims only) or jewish (though I suspect they may be more oecumenical like the christian orgs who help everybody).

Agreed, theses soups are meant to provoke (though the intent to help clearly is there as well, I think), but the reaction by the authorities are VERY revealing about the political atmosphere in France.
Again, you've got to remember that pork is now missing from many, many, many school menus, that this meat is not sold anymore in some heavily islamized areas, than most big supermarket have hallal products wings, that the Charal meat producer's market survey for hallal meat found... 13 millions potential customers, etc, etc...

This forbidden pork soup may seem a bit futile, but actually it is an eyes-opener.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-02-22 09:15|| 2006-02-22 09:15|| Front Page Top

#3 No soup for you!!!

Posted by Soup Nazi 2006-02-22 09:27|| 2006-02-22 09:27|| Front Page Top

#4 So they have a surplus of pork ribs in France? Mmmm...

Posted by 3dc 2006-02-22 09:39|| 2006-02-22 09:39|| Front Page Top

#5 Whatever happened to "beggars can't be choosers"? You want pork soup? We got pork soup. You don't want pork soup? Go elsewhere.

Posted by BH 2006-02-22 10:11|| 2006-02-22 10:11|| Front Page Top

#6 Amen, BH! If (and that's a big if) this was intentioned to push the status quo, they're doing a fine job, but good grief, beggars can't be choosers. I also wonder how many homeless muslims there truly are in france? Not many, I suspect, b/c they live on the public's dole anyways.

Posted by BA 2006-02-22 10:32|| 2006-02-22 10:32|| Front Page Top

#7 Oh, and one other thing...Islam is NOT a race! Repeat 20 times! So, stop making it a "racial" thing!

Posted by BA 2006-02-22 10:33|| 2006-02-22 10:33|| Front Page Top

#8 That ignores the fact that many of the violent Muslims in France are in fact from Africa and that *race* specifically has been an open issue in their attacks - c.f. the may 2005 attack on a demonstration by white students.

Posted by too true 2006-02-22 11:02|| 2006-02-22 11:02|| Front Page Top

#9 Thank G-d there arent any poor Jewish areas left in the US (though there ARE still poor Jews) but there were many such 90 years ago. If someone had opened a soup kitchen in heavily jewish area with the intention of provoking, well I would certainly not have found that a very charitable act.

I mean really, this isnt about free speech, this is making a mockery of the JP's principled stand.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 11:12|| 2006-02-22 11:12|| Front Page Top

#10 "Racist" food?

Then don't eat it

Want to bitch about the soup kitchens when your own people are hungry/homeless?

Then reach into your own pockets and help them out

This is another device of Islam to redefine Western culture and conquer it.

No one is forcing anyone to eat pork soup, LH, and if a Moslem or Jew is hungry they can avail themselves of charity offerings of a different sort.

The fact that the Moslems are able to pressure European government to interfere with indigenous (French) culture to this extent, is very alarming.

Does anyone here think Moslems would give a flip about helping Jews or Christians with soup kitchens, or anything else, much less make sure it's food Jews or Christians would find acceptable? Does anyone doubt that partakers would first be required to "honor" the Islamic god?

Be real. Especially you, LH.

Posted by ex-lib 2006-02-22 11:39|| 2006-02-22 11:39|| Front Page Top

#11 "No one is forcing anyone to eat pork soup, LH, "

Thats true, and whether this justifies state intervention against the soup kitchen is a legitimate area of debate.

"and if a Moslem or Jew is hungry they can avail themselves of charity offerings of a different sort."

You could have said the same if the soup kitchen had simply said "no muslims allowed" or "no jews allowed". Or "no blacks allowed". Acceptable from a liberatarian POV, but hardly charitable.

"The fact that the Moslems are able to pressure European government to interfere with indigenous (French) culture to this extent, is very alarming."

Its traditional in French culture to have soup kitchens that only offer one item, known to be objectionable to a particular group? Did French Protestants open soup kitchens offering meat on Fridays (pre Vatican 2)? What did traditional Frenchmen think of that?

"Does anyone here think Moslems would give a flip about helping Jews or Christians with soup kitchens, or anything else, much less make sure it's food Jews or Christians would find acceptable?"

Yes, a few would. Most wouldnt. Many muslims are bigots. So? does that mean I should cheer when non-muslims are bigots?

"Does anyone doubt that partakers would first be required to "honor" the Islamic god?"

Having been offered food at the house of a muslim, and not having been required to honor any god, id have to say, yes, i doubt that.

"Be real. Especially you, LH."

I am.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 11:47|| 2006-02-22 11:47|| Front Page Top

#12 "Then don't eat it

Want to bitch about the soup kitchens when your own people are hungry/homeless?

Then reach into your own pockets and help them out"

they do, IIUC. as historically jews have done.

"This is another device of Islam to redefine Western culture and conquer it. "

Theyre conquering western culture by not eating pork? Then Jews, vegetarians, 7 day adventists, etc are all in on the conspiracy. Or by being offended when someone deliberately sets out to provoke them (as JP did NOT do)?

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 11:51|| 2006-02-22 11:51|| Front Page Top

#13 *snicker*

"One strange fact; all of the food had bacon in it. The first thing in the morning every day the American boss chef would fry up crisp several pounds of bacon. This was crumbled and put into bowls in various spots in the kitchen. As soon as a can of something was opened, or something put on the stove, a handful of bacon was tossed into it. This included the mashed potatoes, ice cream, and canned peaches.

The idea was to discourage the Muslim cooks, waiters, and other workers from stealing the food. Saudis, in those days, didn't eat too well. Five or six of the cooks, however, were Chinese. They were great. They had been hired from Mainland China before it had gone Red. This introduced a problem when it came time for their vacations. If they went back to Communist China, they'd never get out, and they didn't want to go anywhere else. So for years they just stayed on the job during their vacations and worked for double time."

From The Mess Hall chapter of Larry Barnes' "Looking Back Over My Shoulder" on his long tour at Aramco...

Sound logic.

Posted by .com 2006-02-22 11:54|| 2006-02-22 11:54|| Front Page Top

#14 LH: Do you support the idea of government regulating charities?

And yes, the Moslems are attempting to redefine French culture by insisting that a charity conform to Islamic dietary issues. They do not, however, look after their own, which is ridiculous.

Here's a way to look at it. Should a Jewish charity be shut down because they offer lamb soup because vegans are complaining? Are we all to become vegans, then, because of vegan faith?

If people believe that the deity they serve requires that they abstain from certain things, then those people will have to trust their diety to provide from another direction.

I think the whole thing is to secure free food from non-Moslem sources that Moslems can eat.

Here's another stupid thing I heard, which is related. In New Zealand a Moslem family is suing a pizza restaurant for serving them a pizza that had pork (bacon) bits in it by mistake. They want the pizza restaurant to fund an all-expenses-paid trip to Mecca to be "cleansed" of their pork eating. Well, I have to ask them: If pork is such a big issue, then what the hell are you doing in a restaurant that serves it at all? Anyone been in a pizza kitchen? The containers of toppings are all in a row, the workers reach in, grab toppings and sprinkle--very difficult to keep things separate.

So, by your reasoning, the New Zealand government should shut down that restaurant and all others that serve pork, because it is offensive to Moslems and Jews.

What makes the French situation even worse than the above story, is that no one is even paying anything for the food. So if they don't want to eat it, DON'T EAT IT.

LH, I think you should go over there and open up a lamb soup van that serves koolaid instead of hot wine, so all the Moslems can partake of your good intentions. Just don't let them know you're Jewish, okay?

Posted by ex-lib 2006-02-22 12:05|| 2006-02-22 12:05|| Front Page Top

#15 There's a finger in my chili! I'll bet it's a Joooooooo finger!

Posted by .com 2006-02-22 12:07|| 2006-02-22 12:07|| Front Page Top

#16 lol, .com! You're on a roll, so to speak! Man, as a Christian, I'm all for helping out the homeless, bettering others, etc., but LH, this IS trying to (literally, I might add) shove ISLAM down the throats of the French, by the French gov't no less. And, don't give me the Jewish no-pork excuse, either. Until the Jews are whining about being victim at these soup kitchens, I see this as just another knot in the "I'm a muslim victim" campaign marching through Europe. Methinks, divide and conquer. And, outside of religious views, as I lean more toward the strict interpretation of our Constitution (I know this is France, but ride with me), I've gotta wonder....what the heck does the gov't have ANY business telling a charitable organization what food to GIVE to homeless?????

Posted by BA 2006-02-22 13:05|| 2006-02-22 13:05|| Front Page Top

#17 "LH: Do you support the idea of government regulating charities?"

Now THATS a good question. If the OP had focused on that, rather than on Islam, Id have had little problem. Im NOT saying the govt should have closed the kitchen - I sympathize with the libertarian argument on this. I AM saying is that the action of serving pork soup only wasnt particularly charitable, and the people who did it were jerks. But folks have the liberty to be jerks. Usually.

"And yes, the Moslems are attempting to redefine French culture by insisting that a charity conform to Islamic dietary issues."

Are they insisting it not serve pork? or just that it serve somethine other than pork as well? In all places, or just in heavily muslim areas?

"They do not, however, look after their own, which is ridiculous."

There are no muslim charities in France?

"Here's a way to look at it. Should a Jewish charity be shut down because they offer lamb soup because vegans are complaining? Are we all to become vegans, then, because of vegan faith?"

These days at Jewish events there usually is a vegan offering, cause 1. there are jewish vegans and 2. Cause theres probably gonna be somebody who finds the kashrut of the meat not strict enough. But as to your q, i suppose if there were primarily vegan neighborhoods, and the Jews opened a soup kitchen there, and it served ONLY meat, that would be a pretty jerky thing to do. I dont know that the STATE should get involved, but I sure as hell would expect Jewish leaders to get involved and condemn the thing.

"If people believe that the deity they serve requires that they abstain from certain things, then those people will have to trust their diety to provide from another direction."

Yea - thats what Jews have historically done, as so many folk are jerks.

"I think the whole thing is to secure free food from non-Moslem sources that Moslems can eat."

Ive googled on this group. While my French isnt good enough for a complete picture, my sense is that most muslims would be happy if it simply went away.

"Here's another stupid thing I heard, which is related. In New Zealand a Moslem family is suing a pizza restaurant for serving them a pizza that had pork (bacon) bits in it by mistake. They want the pizza restaurant to fund an all-expenses-paid trip to Mecca to be "cleansed" of their pork eating. "

Somebody suing wants to get the biggest concievable payoff. Routine abuse of the tort system, not clash of civs.

"Well, I have to ask them: If pork is such a big issue, then what the hell are you doing in a restaurant that serves it at all? Anyone been in a pizza kitchen? The containers of toppings are all in a row, the workers reach in, grab toppings and sprinkle--very difficult to keep things separate."

My orthodox relatives would say the same. However I want to live more integrated in my society, and so i eat at treif restaurants, but try to avoid treif (by my standard) foods. I expect at least good faith from the restaurant, if not perfection.

"So, by your reasoning, the New Zealand government should shut down that restaurant and all others that serve pork, because it is offensive to Moslems and Jews."

1. I did not say i support state action. 2. In any case it appears the restaurant acted in good faith.

"What makes the French situation even worse than the above story, is that no one is even paying anything for the food. So if they don't want to eat it, DON'T EAT IT."

Yup, and if some Protestant group went around serving meat on Fridays in a Catholic area (in the old days) the choice to not eat it would be there. It would still be the action of a group of jerks.

"LH, I think you should go over there and open up a lamb soup van that serves koolaid instead of hot wine, so all the Moslems can partake of your good intentions. Just don't let them know you're Jewish, okay?"

Id rather focus on hunger in the US than in France. But wherever i opened a soup kitchen, id be sure to offer choices.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 13:17|| 2006-02-22 13:17|| Front Page Top

#18 so ex-lib, what do you think of muslims deciding to boycott stuff made in Denmark? I mean the Danes can sell to someone else? The muslims have no obligation to buy stuff from denmark, do they? From a libertarian POV, they have every right to boycott whomever they want, right?

But theyre still jerks for boycotting an entire nation for the acts of one newspaper. and it still shows a misunderstanding of the relationship of a nation to a newspaper. In the same way the acts of these jerks shows a misunderstanding of what charity is about.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 13:21|| 2006-02-22 13:21|| Front Page Top

#19 Compare what is happening across Europe to a hypothetical situation. You invite several guests for dinner one of whom is a vegetarian. You prepare a special meal to meet this one person's needs. When everyone is seated around the table, the vegetarian surveys the platters of meat offered to the other guests. He rises upturns the dinner table, and loudly demands that everyone be served vegetables only.

This is what is happening whereever the Muslims have been 'invited to dinner'. Any group that brings its own language and culture to a new country, and attempts to impose them on, or displace, the native population is not a guest. I'm beggining to believe that such 'guests' are not immigrants at all, but rather unarmed invaders bent on colonization.

In the name of diversity and political correctness these folks are being allowed to over turn the dinner table and take over the host's home.
/rant off

Posted by GK 2006-02-22 13:38|| 2006-02-22 13:38|| Front Page Top

#20 Lol, GK. That is the cleanest analogy I've seen.

And the rhetorical nuance game was going so well.

Posted by Whoper Ebbolulet9339 2006-02-22 13:41|| 2006-02-22 13:41|| Front Page Top

#21 thats not what happened in the OP. They werent offered a choice.

Here where I live, there is a significant muslim population (and a smaller Jewish population - but the area is mainly christian, and pretty church going)

The public schools serve pork in the cafeterias. Theres alway an alternative, and the items with pork are marked on the menu with a picture of a pig. This solution makes sense to me.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 13:49|| 2006-02-22 13:49|| Front Page Top

#22 "Until the Jews are whining about being victim at these soup kitchens, "

You wont. while there are still working class jews in France (mainly north african immigrants and their kids) I doubt many use soup kitchens.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 13:51|| 2006-02-22 13:51|| Front Page Top

#23 BTW Jews when offering food help in non-Jewish neighborhoods usually dont set up their own soup kitchens, but participate in ecumenical ones. Why didnt these folks just do that?

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 13:54|| 2006-02-22 13:54|| Front Page Top

#24 dot com

well thats the point isnt it? You dont want the help stealing food in the mess hall. Their not supposed to get any.

Putting pork in all the food at a soup kitchen, is saying we only want poor people who arent muslim to partake.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 14:05|| 2006-02-22 14:05|| Front Page Top

#25 I guess everyone missed this:

"Even Lhaj Thanmi Breze, president of the Union of Islamic Organisations in France, disagreed with closing the soup kitchens, although he regretted that they were serving pork"

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 14:06|| 2006-02-22 14:06|| Front Page Top

#26 LH: despite your inferences, I am NOT a libertarian.

Next, as a Jew, you should hurry up and realize what the Moslems are up to, rather than focusing on the "jerk" aspect of the soup/political speech "kitchen."

Being "nice" to Moslem demands serves their movement to colonize because they see any accomodation as a weakness to exploit. You can bet they are reveling in the shut-down as a victory for Islam.

True, if someone set up a pork soup kitchen to presumably serve homeless, starving Jews, it would be a jerky thing to do--but taking this special case into consideration (only), Moslems are burning neighborhoods, using up all the French social welfare dollars, out populating them, disparaging French women, defacing Jewish cemetaries, and bitching constantly. The soup kitchen was a humorous retaliation against the Moslem "take-over" of France, despite the issue of the nature of the people doing it.

Your defense of the Moslem boycott of Danish products, and your defense of the Moslem dietary DEMANDS on the soup kitchen, is completely disturbing.

The French soup kitchen, is of course, a harmless political reaction to Islamic facism, like the Danish cartoons were.

Good grief.

Posted by ex-lib 2006-02-22 14:10|| 2006-02-22 14:10|| Front Page Top

#27 What does "ultra Right-wing" mean in France anyhow? Moderately socialist?

Posted by Secret Master 2006-02-22 14:28|| 2006-02-22 14:28|| Front Page Top

#28 I'm still wondering when the CIA will start spreading the story that pork grease is an ingredient in modern semtex and most explosives in the hopes that the Jihadists will be reluctant to use the stuff.

I'm wondering when Western arms manufacturers will start to actually include pork grease in their products specifically to eliminate the use by psychos since I doubt a lot of the stuff is made in the middle east.

Posted by rjschwarz">rjschwarz 2006-02-22 15:14|| rjschwarz.com]">[rjschwarz.com] 2006-02-22 15:14|| Front Page Top

#29 Assembled, but not made.

Posted by rjschwarz">rjschwarz 2006-02-22 15:14|| rjschwarz.com]">[rjschwarz.com] 2006-02-22 15:14|| Front Page Top

#30 What does "ultra Right-wing" mean in France anyhow?

It includes neo-Nazis.

Posted by lotp 2006-02-22 15:27|| 2006-02-22 15:27|| Front Page Top

#31 LH -
There are religious reasons to or not to eat specific foods and then there are those of us with PHYSICAL reasons like ALLERGIES.

As somebody in the later catagory I don't make a habit of going balistic when the rest of the morons on the planet don't get it and polute all the foods sold with stuff I can't take. I may seethe a bit but I don't make an issue of it when industry put cows milk (butter whey etc..) or chicken eggs in damn near anything sold. On top of that lima beans in every mix veggies or kidney beans in soups and chilies. All of which could KILL ME. I just quietly ask questions and avoid trouble. Why? Because some poor jerk might be allergic to the stuff I am not and we all need to survive.

Now Lamb and Turkey are mid-dangerous allergies for me so following your justification I could be very upset at free food joints serving lamb. Lamb the secret killer food. Of course the same would go for tuna, fresh water trout, cane sugar, anything with corn syrup (instead of a nice beet sugar or palm sugar or date sugar) Certain types of yeast you might use in wine, beer or bread, The sulfates the government demands to be in wine (mitigated by being allergic to grapes).

My world of tofu, soy oils, beef, pork, salmon, and catfish might be kind of hard for most to stomach. Oh and since most beers are out (excepting the cold filtered stuff) and wine is out that leaves booze... but wait...
I have minor allergies (ok for 1 meal a day) to wheat, corn, oats, rye - leaving rice, spelt and kamut so Saki uses some bad yeast so its out... that leaves distilled cactus juice (and nobody tests the worm...)

So, since I get along without complaining ....
EVERYBODY ELSE SHOULD SHUT THEIR MOUTHS UP ON THE ISSUE AND Let the folks be. If they want to give away pork soup ... LET THEM AND SHUT-UP about IT!

IF the French gov or muslims or jews or vegans can't shutup about it they can come talk to me and I will scream at them for trying to kill me with their foods!

Posted by 3dc 2006-02-22 15:32|| 2006-02-22 15:32|| Front Page Top

#32 "LH: despite your inferences, I am NOT a libertarian."

I didnt mean to infer you were a libertarian. I was only trying to say that from the point of view of someone who opposed all state regulation of NGO's, i could see why theyd be upset with what the French did here.

"Next, as a Jew, you should hurry up and realize what the Moslems are up to, rather than focusing on the "jerk" aspect of the soup/political speech "kitchen." "

Some Muslims are up to. Many. Not muslims in general. Just as not Christians in general, and not jews in general.

"Being "nice" to Moslem demands serves their movement to colonize because they see any accomodation as a weakness to exploit."

"They" isnt a they. theyre moving to europe for the same reason people from low wage countries always move to high wage countries. Some of the immigrants are radical muslims. Some are moderates. Some become ex-muslims, like Hirsin Ali. Some jihadi dreamer may think of this as colonization, but it isnt.

" You can bet they are reveling in the shut-down as a victory for Islam."

I doubt it very much.

"True, if someone set up a pork soup kitchen to presumably serve homeless, starving Jews, it would be a jerky thing to do--but taking this special case into consideration (only), Moslems are burning neighborhoods,"

Christian africans did too, and most french muslims didnt riot.

"using up all the French social welfare dollars, "

My understanding is that most want to work. most muslims here do.

"out populating them"

actually IIUC 2nd generation birthrates are lower than immigrant birthrates. As with every other immigrant group.
,"disparaging French women, defacing Jewish cemetaries, and bitching constantly."

acts of some, not of all - stop with the collective guilt shit. Thats all it is.

" The soup kitchen was a humorous retaliation against the Moslem "take-over" of France, despite the issue of the nature of the people doing it."

Not humorous, and the people doing it are jerks.

"Your defense of the Moslem boycott of Danish products,"

WTF? This weekend i had Danish Havarti on my bagels, and enjoyed some Carlsberg Malt Liquor. I encourage all to try them both (but not together - bagel with cheese goes better with coffee or OJ)

" and your defense of the Moslem dietary DEMANDS on the soup kitchen, is completely disturbing. "

actually the only muslim leader quoted opposed the shutdown.

The French soup kitchen, is of course, a harmless political reaction to Islamic facism, like the Danish cartoons were.

Good grief.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-22 15:35|| 2006-02-22 15:35|| Front Page Top

#33 False dilemma, Lh.

In the Aramco kitchen it was to prevent THEFT.

I have no dog in this fight - it just reminded me of Larry's Mess Hall story.

Yall have fun!

Posted by .com 2006-02-22 16:00|| 2006-02-22 16:00|| Front Page Top

#34 No soup for you!!!
Posted by: Soup Nazi|| 2006-02-22 09:27 ||Comments Top||

ROFLMAO!!

Posted by Al-Aska Paul">Al-Aska Paul 2006-02-22 22:26|| 2006-02-22 22:26|| Front Page Top

#35 I suspect the Muslims don't have the same rule as the Jews, but many centuries ago the Rabbis ruled that anything is permitted in the saving of a life. That is, if one is starving, it is permitted to eat pork or anything else... even to the point of lifting a weapon on the Sabbath in self defence. Liberalhawk, your argument about food kitchen menus being exclusionary fails on the merits. Anyway, soup kitchens generally serve bread or crackers along with the soup -- the truly hungry Muslim can partake of that without issue... but only if the goal isn't to impose their dietary standards on the outside world.

.com, I saved the site. Mr. Wife should find it fascinating...

Posted by trailing wife 2006-02-22 23:03|| 2006-02-22 23:03|| Front Page Top

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