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2005-10-25 Europe

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Posted by Steve 2005-10-25 09:12|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Does anyone else occasionally feel that Wilsonian self-determination was a really BIG mistake?

It was an arguable theory in the days of Empires like Austro-Hungary, etc. but does it really make sense to have a tribal vision for sovereignty in this day and age? Think of all the thousands of mini-states that could be split up (some are in the process) from Quebec to Kurdistan to Kashmir to Wales to Basque land etc.

The world seems to be splitting into two camps, those who want sovereignty at the tribal level and those who want sovereignty at the global level (tranzis and Islamists).

Which way out?

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2005-10-25 09:45|| 2005-10-25 09:45|| Front Page Top

#2 Give them sovereignty and watch them flounder.

Posted by Rightwing 2005-10-25 11:22|| 2005-10-25 11:22|| Front Page Top

#3 How can one Basque even tell another Basque from anyone else ? Are they so different, or are they different because they live in mud huts and chew leather all night long ?

Posted by wxjames 2005-10-25 12:06|| 2005-10-25 12:06|| Front Page Top

#4 some, like my maternal grandmother, emigrated to Nevada from the French Basque country. The language is unlike anything else in Europe, and the disposition can quickly change to nasty, jerk

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-10-25 12:24|| 2005-10-25 12:24|| Front Page Top

#5 Basques are a distinct people genetically. they are non-IndoEuropean culturally and genetically, probably date from the Neolithic in those mountains, if not earlier. They have a long history of demanding to be autonomous and left alone: see: Roman Empire, history of in Spain and France.

Posted by lotp 2005-10-25 12:39|| 2005-10-25 12:39|| Front Page Top

#6 The world seems to be splitting into two camps, those who want sovereignty at the tribal level and those who want sovereignty at the global level (tranzis and Islamists).

Which way out?

Democracy is the way out. Self-determination doesn't always mean "independence". It means the right of peoples to choose how much independendent they want to be.

I want European (and global) unification, but I want it to be a democratic unification. Any state that democratically chooses out, should be allowed to. And every people should be allowed to change their minds -- no irrevocable choices.

ETA's ambitions have nothing to do with either democracy nor Basque freedom any more than Transnistria's or Abkhazia's puppet governments do -- they've already killed Basque democrats opposing them, and they'd keep the Basque people under the tyrant's leash if they had their way, after they also ethnically clean out the Spaniards.

---

And as a sidenote there's also a third camp you've not mentioned, which is that of the nationalist imperialist camp -- hypocrites who preach absolute sovereignty for their own nation, but are very eager to intervene in the affairs of other countries if it suits their purposes.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-10-25 12:43|| 2005-10-25 12:43|| Front Page Top

#7 Aris I am really happy you talk like this.

Now for the others. The founder of Basque nationalism was Sabino Arana. A guy who didn't speak Basque. His books and speechs talk of the Basque as a superior race who had to remain pure from inferior and degenerate "Maketos" (ie Spaniards) but also from French, English, Americans and remaining untermenschen. In other words he was a Baske version of your average KKK member. This is the guy who inspires both the oficially non-violent PNV and the ETA.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-10-25 12:55|| 2005-10-25 12:55|| Front Page Top

#8 Sidenote: The Basque language is among the oldest in all of Europe. I have heard speculation that it is most closely linked to sanskrit. Some notes from a website:

The Basque language is an inflected language whose origin is still somewhat puzzling. The fact that it is not an Indoeuropean language, and shows no ressemblance to languages in neighbouring countries, has led to the formulation of a variety of hypotheses to explain its existence. Owing to some similarities with the Georgian language, some linguists think it could be related to languages from the Caucasus. Others relate the language to non-Arabic languages from the north of Africa. One of the most likely hypotheses argues that the Basque language developed "in situ", in the land of the primitive Basques. That theory is supported by the discovery of some Basque-type skulls in Neolithic sites, which ruled out the thesis of immigration from other areas. Many think it is a very old language because there are words, such as that for axe ("aizkora" or "haizkora") for example, that have the same root as the word rock ("aitz"> or "haitz")

They have resisted cultural intrusion by much larger states (i.e., Spain & France) for millennia, so their's must be a pretty rugged culture.

Posted by Zenster 2005-10-25 13:35|| 2005-10-25 13:35|| Front Page Top

#9 Strong pressure not to marry outside the ethnic group, among other things, which in subtle ways is reinforced by the distinctive Basque headshape and earlobes. OTOH, a rather ominous percent of Basques are RH negative, which keeps the birthrate low. That has worked to their advantage in the past, as it provides a natural limit on the local population, allowing subsitance farming plus fishing to support a traditional peasant lifestyle. Some Basques developed large financial fortunes by building fishing fleets or moving into manufacturing -- and none of these supports ETA.

Posted by lotp 2005-10-25 14:45|| 2005-10-25 14:45|| Front Page Top

#10 Aris, unfortunately your "Democracy is the way out. Self-determination doesn't always mean "independence". It means the right of peoples to choose how much independendent they want to be"

Is the problem rather than the solution. Please define "peoples" in such a way as to not foster tribalism. Are the Basques a "people" that deserve their own vote? Are the Serbians a "people" that deserve their own vote? (did that include Kosovo or not?) Do the Catholics, Welsh, Afro-Americans, 125 flavors of Chinese, the Swahili, Hutus, Alsatians, Northern Cypriots etc. deserve a vote as a "people"?

As far as I've been able to see their is no answer to this. And to continue to claim that Democracy is an answer is worse than useless. To have Democracy you first need an identifiable Demos and WHO gets to make that call? The answer is INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY which makes your sovereign location practically immaterial. If everyone is free and has the same gauranteed rights anywhere then the sovereign classification doesn't matter.

It's when groups have a group identity and want group perks and privs that the problems begin, and that's what the idea of micro states panders to. Your group gets to be the big fish in the little pond and eat all the other fish that you don't agree with.

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2005-10-25 16:27|| 2005-10-25 16:27|| Front Page Top

#11 reinforced by the distinctive Basque headshape and earlobes

Their odd fondness for Tropical Shirts makes them stand out too, especially in the Pyranees.

Posted by Shipman 2005-10-25 17:36|| 2005-10-25 17:36|| Front Page Top

#12 OK, now it's started, dammit

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-10-25 18:07|| 2005-10-25 18:07|| Front Page Top

#13 Y'all watch out or Frank's gonna whup out his beltza bat.

Posted by Zenster 2005-10-25 18:42|| 2005-10-25 18:42|| Front Page Top

#14 :-) Basque and Norwegian heritage has a lot of pre-demands...gotta protect the honor

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-10-25 19:11|| 2005-10-25 19:11|| Front Page Top

#15 All honor given, Frank.

Those interested might like this book. I did.

Posted by lotp 2005-10-25 19:21|| 2005-10-25 19:21|| Front Page Top

#16 By the way, check out basque restaurants - you'll meet your neighbors and everyone else. Good food (except the tripe) and wine

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-10-25 19:27|| 2005-10-25 19:27|| Front Page Top

#17 Yup - there's a good one in San Francisco. I forget the name at the moment.

Don't know about tropical shirts, Shipman, but they gave us espadrilles, for which I am grateful every summer ....

Posted by lotp 2005-10-25 19:30|| 2005-10-25 19:30|| Front Page Top

#18 Having a functional democracy requires that you have a somewhat educated population whose majority is able to think outside the clan. Otherwise, you end up with knuckleheads who vote for free food and gasoline (not realizing that someone has to pay in some manner for all the free stuff).

On the otherhand, if you make all the boys memorize exclusively the koran or the guiness book of records or slaughterhouse five or whathaveyou --you eventually will have a group of voters who are absolutely worthless to the furtherance of enlightened democracy. In fact, they may end up being culturally akin to the monster that climbed out of that guys belly in the movie "Alien".

Posted by Phumble Threck4845 2005-10-25 23:14|| 2005-10-25 23:14|| Front Page Top

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