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2005-08-23 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-08-23 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11127 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 It gets weirder and weirder

Posted by Captain America 2005-08-23 00:24|| 2005-08-23 00:24|| Front Page Top

#2 As Froggy (link) points out, this interpretation doesn't fit very well. Able Danger also identified Marwan al Shehhi, Khalid al Midhar, and Nawaf al Hamzi. One of his commenters adds that Able Danger utilized visa records, which have photographs. The possibility that the Able Danger team confused the two Attas is, in my opinion, very low.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2005-08-23 00:27|| 2005-08-23 00:27|| Front Page Top

#3 Agreed.But nice try to unspin some jihad there Mikey!

Posted by Mac Suirtain 2005-08-23 00:54|| 2005-08-23 00:54|| Front Page Top

#4 I would like to say that I look forward to Mr. Sylwester's posts. True, I do not agree with everything he's said, and I'm sure he wouldn't but I don't think he deserves flames with every post or comment. He's not afraid to look at things in a new light, and that is a valuable quality.

Mike contributed a series of excellent posts (link) about the 4/19/95 Oklahoma City bombing. It's my firm belief that there are many connections between 4/19 and 9/11, as well as paralells in the "perception management" of the aftermath.

Able Danger gets more and more interesting. In today's New York Times (link to Cap'n Ed), an active duty naval officer, Captain Scott Philpott, comes forward and confirms recent revelations about Able Danger. Something about these disclosures suggests to me that the Able Danger revelations are officially sanctioned.

Support for the Iraq war is approaching new lows. Bush may have made the determination that the "perception management" must end, and that the true nature of the Iraq/terrorism/WMD nexus be made plain to all.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2005-08-23 01:50|| 2005-08-23 01:50|| Front Page Top

#5 Whoever wrote this doesn't understand data mining. Data mining is extracting identifying patterns and individuals who conform to those patterns. It can and does use any data available (and 'a priori' no data is better than any other data), credit card transactions, airline tickets, long distance phone calls, website traffic, etc. The more data the better.

Posted by phil_b 2005-08-23 03:12|| 2005-08-23 03:12|| Front Page Top

#6 I suppose it could be true, anything can be true, but the idea that there are two Attas smacks of such grasping desperation that it makes you wonder where Able Danger is going to take us.

Combine that with a possible connection to Sandy Berger stuffing National Archive docs in his pants and this is getting more and more interesting by the day.

Posted by 2b 2005-08-23 03:33|| 2005-08-23 03:33|| Front Page Top

#7 This from Powerlineblog.com

In addition, James Smith, a former employee of a defense contractor, says he helped create a chart in 2000 for the Able Danger program that included Mr. Atta's photograph and name.

It's either him or it isn't. A simple yes or no is all we need.

Posted by 2b 2005-08-23 04:45|| 2005-08-23 04:45|| Front Page Top

#8 Whoever wrote this doesn't understand data mining.

I also tried to post an article by Edward Jay Epstein about how Atta might have been identified by data mining.

Since the Rantburger rabble reactively objects to my posts, all my posts are reviewed carefully by the moderators before they are determined to be suitable for rabble reading.

Therefore the Epstein article speculating about Able Danger's data mining methods related to Atta still has not appeared here.
.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-08-23 07:35|| 2005-08-23 07:35|| Front Page Top

#9 Notwithstanding Mr. Sylwester's apparent popularity here, *I* find it comforting that the folks at Slate are so much more smart that the entire Able Danger squad, and probably the entire intelligence community. I mean, how could Able Danger's data mining have been more comprehensive than Google?

BTY, do they have two pictures of two different Attas? Huh? Do I beleive everything I read?

Posted by Bobby 2005-08-23 07:44|| 2005-08-23 07:44|| Front Page Top

#10 Mike S, I am not an expert on data mining but I do have some grasp of how it works. Unfortunately Epstein doesn't seem to, so let me explain. Data mining is about finding patterns in data to identify people of interest. There are several ways in which DM can be used but the basic scenario is as follows. You have a number of people who you know to be of interest, in this case known AQ terrorists such as those who truck bombed the WTC. You run all the data you have about them through computers to find what they have in common, which could be something completely innocuous like they all have KMart credit cards. You then search through databases to find others who have the same things in common. You can then adjust the criteria to generate a list as short or as long as your resources allow for follow up. Epstein falls into the trap of assuming a priori he would know what characterizes a terrorist. The magic of DM is it makes no a priori assumptions and consequently comes up with answers that human beings never(?) could.

Posted by phil_b 2005-08-23 08:30|| 2005-08-23 08:30|| Front Page Top

#11 It's a Mohammed Atta who was (as the story says) an Abu Nidal terrorist extradited to Israel to face charges of fire bombing and machine-gunning a bus. .... the "Atta" fingered by Able Danger was really the first, "Abu Nidal" Atta, and not the second, 9/11 "Al Qaeda" Atta. It was the first Atta's name that was on the list that Lt. Col. Shaffer remembers being shown. ...

Bullshit. There's a thirteen-year gap there. While Mikey and Kaus may be too stupid to recognize such a large span in time, I doubt the Able Danger team was.

And phil's completely right -- the whole point of data mining isn't going in with assumptions. It's letting the data tell you what's in it. You use the tools to shake out new associations and correlations that aren't obvious.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-08-23 09:05|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-08-23 09:05|| Front Page Top

#12 I have no objections to this post of Mikey's. It has information (true or not) which is debatable and documented as well as I guess it can be at this time. I find teh Able-Danger story to be extremely interesting inasmuch as Jamie Gorelick should never have been on teh panel. She should've been called to answer for her extension of the "wall", as well as her influence over Pentagon lawyers. Philpott showing up and declaring himself may just expose the lawyer-wall in teh Pentagon, as well as some conveniently lost documents....right, Sandy?
The JUS posts by MS drive me crazy because they convey absolutely nothing but the wet dreams of seething anti-americans. I can get propganda if I want, I don't need it fed as a valid news site.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-08-23 09:34|| 2005-08-23 09:34|| Front Page Top

#13 "Bush may have made the determination that the "perception management" must end, and that the true nature of the Iraq/terrorism/WMD nexus be made plain to all."

Speaking of this, did anyone catch the NatGeo Inside 9/11 special? It was most excellent in laying out the whole chronology of 9/11 and exposing the real threat of Islamism.

And it did so in a non hysterical way. Should be required viewing for all that question why we're in this war!

Joe

Posted by Jihad Joe 2005-08-23 09:38|| 2005-08-23 09:38|| Front Page Top

#14 Combine that with a possible connection to Sandy Berger stuffing National Archive docs in his pants and this is getting more and more interesting by the day.
Indeed 2b, Indeed.

Posted by DepotGuy 2005-08-23 09:45|| 2005-08-23 09:45|| Front Page Top

#15 Stuffing the printed page away in order to conceal things makes little sense in a world where most everything is created on a computer and most documents submitted for formal review are indexed and numbered.

Posted by MunkarKat 2005-08-23 09:50|| 2005-08-23 09:50|| Front Page Top

#16 MK - you're assuming that all the investigators wanted everything found. I'd say evidence to the contrary is appearing almost daily...welll, weekly

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-08-23 09:52|| 2005-08-23 09:52|| Front Page Top

#17 The 9/11 Omission had a couple of simple jobs to accomplish: cover up for the malfeasance of the national security apparatus in general and the Clinton administration specifically.

How many people who sat on that commission, or who were on its staff, have since accepted speaking engagements funded by the Saudis?

(And did the administration ever release the bits about the Saudis? Was that done at the behest of the State Department? Why hasn't State been purged?)

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-08-23 10:03|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-08-23 10:03|| Front Page Top

#18 //Speaking of this, did anyone catch the NatGeo Inside 9/11 special? It was most excellent in laying out the whole chronology of 9/11 and exposing the real threat of Islamism.

And it did so in a non hysterical way. Should be required viewing for all that question why we're in this war!

Joe
Posted by Jihad Joe 2005-08-23 09:38|| Front Page|| Comment Top
//

yep. thawts it purdy well dun.wuz into fakts and not spin. kudos to natgeo.

Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-23 10:32|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2005-08-23 10:32|| Front Page Top

#19 Only Leftists like Kaus and M.S. would try to spin this with 2 Mohammed Attas.
To what end? So that they could pursued according to the Clintoonian criminal justice model?
Yeah. That really worked out for us.
At least we'd know we had a Islamofacist terrorist in jail, one way or another.

It obviously was the right Atta or the date mining wouldn't have turned up his other 3 9/11 cell leaders.
Sylwester, what is your problem?
And wouldn't it have been better to have discovered that we had the right or wrong Mohammed Atta in 2000 before he had the chance to kill 3,000 on 9/11?
The Left and their lying flying monkeys make me sick.
Shuttup.
I watched the National Geographic special on 9/11 last night--it made me furious and horrified all over again and the experts at the end concluded it was going to take a bigger attack with even more dead to convince America these IslamoNazis need to be permanently taken care of.
If you Lefty boys don't have anything better to bring to the conversation than this--2 Attas, what bullshit--than shut the hell up and let the grownups get on with winning this war.

Posted by Ferd Burfle">Ferd Burfle 2005-08-23 13:52|| 2005-08-23 13:52|| Front Page Top

#20 what he said!

Posted by Sparkle Farkle">Sparkle Farkle 2005-08-23 14:11|| 2005-08-23 14:11|| Front Page Top

#21 Only Leftists like Kaus and M.S. would try to spin this with 2 Mohammed Attas.

That's not true, Fred B. If you go to the link, you'll see that Kaus is repeating an idea of Tom Macguire's. While I think the two-Atta idea is wrong, for reasons that I state above, it's important to examine things from new angles. I like this kind of creative thinking.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2005-08-23 14:39|| 2005-08-23 14:39|| Front Page Top

#22 This kind of "creative thinking" is what got 3,000 of our fellow Americans killed on 9/11.
I hate it.
And I figured out why the Left needs this "2 Attas" argument:
they need yet another excuse to explain why the Clinton Administration didn't stop the cell from carrying the attacks.
"We were confused and didn't know which Atta to pick up..."
Bastards, Lying bastards, too.

Posted by Ferd Burfle">Ferd Burfle 2005-08-23 15:01|| 2005-08-23 15:01|| Front Page Top

#23 One simple question: How much did the 9/11 Commission cost?

Posted by Captain America 2005-08-23 15:05|| 2005-08-23 15:05|| Front Page Top

#24 ``Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; ye, who were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves become the greatest grivance. ... Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and strength he has given me, I am now come to do; I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place; go, get out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone!'' Oliver Cromwell-- to the Rump Parliament, 20 April 1653

Posted by Mark E. 2005-08-23 15:29|| 2005-08-23 15:29|| Front Page Top

#25 Since the Rantburger rabble reactively objects to my posts, all my posts are reviewed carefully by the moderators before they are determined to be suitable for rabble reading.

This is how my work with the fabulous F-12 Recon plane was discovered.

Posted by Jack Rubenstein 2005-08-23 15:34|| 2005-08-23 15:34|| Front Page Top

#26 This kind of "creative thinking" is what got 3,000 of our fellow Americans killed on 9/11. I strongly disgree. What allowed 9/11 was a lack of creative thinking. I want to hear new ideas, no matter how off the wall they may seem. It is inevitable that we come up with ideas that don't pan out, but it's an important process. If we hammer down every weird idea, we soon end up with no new ideas.
And I figured out why the Left needs this "2 Attas" argument: I say again, the originator of the 2 Atta idea was Tom Macguire.

they need yet another excuse to explain why the Clinton Administration didn't stop the cell from carrying the attacks.
There is a struggle between 'security' and 'intelligence.' 'Security' would always arrest/deport/assassinate a terrorist cell. 'Intelligence' wants to watch the cell, see who they talk to, where they go. 'Security' maintains that the cell is an intolerable threat. 'Intelligence' wants to use information to take down the entire network.

I believe the perpetrators of 9/11 used large amounts of disinformation to help shield themselves. Both the Clinton and Bush administrations thought they had it covered. By the time their full capabilities were revealed, it was too late.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2005-08-23 16:00|| 2005-08-23 16:00|| Front Page Top

#27 There is a struggle between 'security' and 'intelligence.' Etc.'
Yap, yap, yap...you sound like Clinton and his people.
Our goverment should have security as its priority when they know that men are plotting to kill us.
The time to be curious about "intelligence" comes later, after the killers have been stopped and we have them in custody.
"I believe the perpetrators of 9/11 used large amounts of disinformation to help shield themselves. Both the Clinton and Bush administrations thought they had it covered. By the time their full capabilities were revealed, it was too late."
Then you switch gears, cut to the chase and spread blame around.
Islamist terrorists using "disinformation" to hide? It's called taqiya.
The whole importance of the Able Danger program is that its data mining did uncover these AQ murderers anyway even though they worked so hard to stay undiscovered.
Their key weapon was surprise. If they'd been rounded up--including "both" Mohammed Attas--their cover and their plot would have been foiled and we'd have those 3,000 people who were slaughtered on 9/11 with us today.
All I can say is, I hope the data mining is still in place and working and that the Gorelick wall is down for good.
I don't want a repeat of 9/11 or worse and if RB, Kaus and others were honest and stopped their intellectualizing of the problem, they'd realize they don't either.

Posted by Ferd Burfle">Ferd Burfle 2005-08-23 16:36|| 2005-08-23 16:36|| Front Page Top

#28 Our goverment should have security as its priority when they know that men are plotting to kill us. Men are plotting to kill us all the time. Taking down a whole network will save more lives than arresting a couple of penne ante jihadis.

The time to be curious about "intelligence" comes later, after the killers have been stopped and we have them in custody. A zoologist can't learn as much about an animal in a cage as he can by studying the animal in its natural environment.

"disinformation" to hide? It's called taqiya. Taqiya, maskrikovka, it's all the same. But that's the whole point.
The whole importance of the Able Danger program is that its data mining did uncover these AQ murderers anyway even though they worked so hard to stay undiscovered. I could not disagree more strongly. The 9/11 terrorists weren't very covert. Not at all. They got speeding tickets, for goodness' sake! They repeatedly drew attention to themselves, nearly to the moment of embarkation, with a near-scuffle in the Logan parking lot.

Their key weapon was surprise Yes. Surprise at their capabilities, not their presence.

If they'd been rounded up I agree. The hijackers absolutely should have been rounded up.

I don't want a repeat of 9/11 or worse and if RB, Kaus and others were honest and stopped their intellectualizing of the problem, they'd realize they don't either.

You completely misunderstand me. Prevention of another 9/11, or any terrorist incident is at the front of my mind always, and damn you for saying otherwise. But it is only through honest appraisal of past policy that we can prevent another event.

The main question here, in my mind, is why the Gorelick wall was established in the first place. Some might say it's the result of inflamed sensitivity to civil liberties among the political left. But Clinton's behavior in other areas (link) suggests that protection of civil liberties wasn't a priority. Was the Gorelick wall erected to hide the identity of Ramzi Yousef as Abdul Basit, protoge of Dr. Ihsan Barbouti? I think it was, and that is the key to understanding the current Able Danger revelations.

Re-visiting mistakes requires that we explore past thinking, however mistaken. Or we could substitute dispassionate examination for short-sighted, small-minded political bickering.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2005-08-23 17:32|| 2005-08-23 17:32|| Front Page Top

#29 I expect with decent work we can figure out this crime.

Altho always keep in mind that there are more morons than detectives.

Posted by Judge Crater 2005-08-23 18:15|| 2005-08-23 18:15|| Front Page Top

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