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2005-05-24 Europe

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Posted by Fred 2005-05-24 00:00|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 (snicker)

Wee-wee, mon sewer...

Posted by mojo">mojo 2005-05-24 01:03|| 2005-05-24 01:03|| Front Page Top

#2 Interesting turn of the phrase.

The WWII German Army used to take divisions immolated by fighting, take the most experienced troops and then combine them into ad hoc mobile combat groups called battle groups (kampfgruppen) . It was an operational expedient for an army at the time which did not expect the appearance of fresh divisions. On the eastern front the last new non SS unit went to the east in January of 1942.

So what does it all mean? The composition of the forces will likely be not mobile troops, but light rifles trundled about by helos? C130s? Two companies of guys/gals carrying rifles, the rest being carboard cutouts by the engineers?

Posted by badanov">badanov 2005-05-24 01:13|| http://www.rkka.org]">[http://www.rkka.org] 2005-05-24 01:13|| Front Page Top

#3 Rapid hardly describes the proposed battle groups. The EU hopes to get the decision process on committing the troops down to 5 days and plan on a further 10 days for the unit to get there!
The main purpose of the battle groups is to be able to deploy peacekeepers quickly(heh!). Most of the groups won't be ready until 2008 at earliest. There is also no higher command structure planned,which leaves plenty of room for politicking for the command slots when several groups get deployed together.(This may be reason the Germans are so enthusiastic about forming numerous combined nationality groups w/a German element. They may figure if most groups deployed have Germans in them they get to demand appropriate command slots.)
The units currently have a proposed stregnth of about 1500 men and eventually will be built around the EU FRES,the proposed EU version of the US FCS. Until then they will be alledgedly highly trained light infantry(not to cast doubt on the quality of the troops themselves,but who will pay for training ranges,training ammo and practice deployments?). Then there is the little matter of how the troops are going to get to where there are to be sent. The EU doesn't have any airlift or sealift capabilities,nor does it have any apparent plans to obtain any.
I can imagine the fun when the EU decides to send a couple of groups to a former French colony to restore order and demands Britain supply several C-130s to move the troops and their equipment,even tho Britain doesn't approve of the intervention.(I can't believe the EU will require unanimous consent to send its troops-otherwise they'd never be deployed outside Europe.)

Posted by Stephen 2005-05-24 02:05|| 2005-05-24 02:05|| Front Page Top

#4 Hmm. I notice that the only EU country with a significant fighting force (the UK) isn't part of any battle group.

Coincidence? Nah.....

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-05-24 03:32|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-05-24 03:32|| Front Page Top

#5 Rapid reaction force means they will ride on bycicles instead of walking. The plan was to hire Lance Armstrong as an instructor but since they learned he was American, worse Texan they are looking for a replacement.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-05-24 07:27|| 2005-05-24 07:27|| Front Page Top

#6 Nah, "rapid reaction" means they'll be pumped up on espresso.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-05-24 07:35|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-05-24 07:35|| Front Page Top

#7 They've been talking this since the late 80's. There was a Franco-German Corps for a while, then Eurocorps (who knows what happened to that), now this. And they are supposed to start getting 180 Airbus military transports in 2010 (snicker).

Posted by 11A5S 2005-05-24 07:48|| 2005-05-24 07:48|| Front Page Top

#8 It's the air transport that's the real issue. In order to get there quickly, you need to be able to haul stuff by air.

Posted by Spot">Spot 2005-05-24 08:39|| 2005-05-24 08:39|| Front Page Top

#9 Spot---Rapid reaction by air. THAT's where the Airbus A380 comes in!

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2005-05-24 09:05|| 2005-05-24 09:05|| Front Page Top

#10 All trained to overrun Luxemburg in an hour. Anything outside of Europe will require sealift, airlift, logistical, and air and naval superiority support from the U.S. taxpayer.

Posted by Theaper Angaimble1231 2005-05-24 09:16|| 2005-05-24 09:16|| Front Page Top

#11 We should have a pool on where it will first be deployed, when the decision will be made and for the jackpot - how long it will take them to get there. If they are to be credible then it better be a "firehouse-fire" (like France under Islamic insurgency). If they have to respond outside of Europe - say Africa - as a multilateral force with logistics, C4 and all the support requirements they will end up being laughing stocks and make Rummy look like a cheshire cat!

Posted by Jack is Back!">Jack is Back! 2005-05-24 09:19|| 2005-05-24 09:19|| Front Page Top

#12 15 day deployment is NOT rapid reaction. You need to have a force that will be wheels up in 2 hours and anywhere in the world in 24 hours. The US has several rapid deployment battalions that have this capability (called DRF-1 for the alert code) and several more than can be loaded up and follow the RRF in 24 hours. I've seen US armored cavalry units go from being near off time to loaded and deploying in 48 hours, and the unit wasn't even expected to go. 15 days.... sheeesh. Europe, roll over and die now if this is the best you can do. The Islamists are coming for you ...

Posted by mmurray821 2005-05-24 09:27|| 2005-05-24 09:27|| Front Page Top

#13 I believe the Rapid Reaction means to immeaditely begin talks and discussions about how to diffuse the situation (the French will rapidly endorse surrender and appeasment)thereby allowing enough time for the US to step in. Then the discussion will turn to criticizing the US about their unilateral, cowboy antics.

Posted by BrerRabbit 2005-05-24 10:11|| 2005-05-24 10:11|| Front Page Top

#14 *snicker* Love the graphic--
Asterix and Obelix and all the other indomitable Gauls!

Posted by Sgt. Mom">Sgt. Mom 2005-05-24 10:14|| www.sgtstryker.com]">[www.sgtstryker.com] 2005-05-24 10:14|| Front Page Top

#15 AP - I saw the item about the Airbus transports, and thought: if pigs had wings they could fly. The point is, they don't have them and probably never will. That's a lot of money and expertise the EUros don't have and don't really want to spend/develop.
The title of this piece should be: EU dreams of creating rapid reaction forces.

Posted by Spot">Spot 2005-05-24 10:22|| 2005-05-24 10:22|| Front Page Top

#16 mmuray, I don't think they have tested that 'rapid' portion of the RRF for quite some time. Still we can put boots on the ground a lot quicker that 10 days. I think after the Tsunami we had people there within 48 hours. This EU RRF is some pipe dream of the French that has little chance of success. I only wish they could field a force that would take some pressure of the U.S. military, but 15 days to get somewhere? Didn't germany defeat France in less that ten days? Saddam lasted less than seven and the Taliban about the same. So why don't the Euros do something useful if they are showing up AFTER the battle is over. Have an RRF hooker/hospital force to help after the battle. Bring in prostitutes for the able and medical staff for the injured. At least it be a useful force!

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2005-05-24 10:26|| 2005-05-24 10:26|| Front Page Top

#17 Only one problem: Will there be an EU in 2007?

Posted by Captain America 2005-05-24 11:08|| 2005-05-24 11:08|| Front Page Top

#18 Into what out-of-area regions will they intervene? Not anywhere near Russia. Kosovo's already been done. Not Iraq or Palestine or Lebanon or anywhere else in the middle east. Sudan? mm, don't think so (too many potential oil contracts at stake). Asia's too far away (I doubt more Tikhonovs will be forthcoming from Uzbekistan anytime soon).

All of which leaves subsaharan Africa as the only out-of-area region where this force will ever be applied. This is nothing more than a neo-colonial Rapid Reactionary Force marching under a pseudo-humanitarian banner. Call it the New Afrika Korps.

Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-05-24 11:24|| 2005-05-24 11:24|| Front Page Top

#19 Maybe the intent is to be able to deploy to put down Islamofascist uprisings in EU countries.

Posted by RWV 2005-05-24 11:59|| 2005-05-24 11:59|| Front Page Top

#20 Right-o, spot. If you want to get into the rapid reaction game, you have to develop it into your military infrastructure for years. It takes decades of commitment to make any military system happen. The Euros have been talking about it for decades. It is a good start. **snicker**

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2005-05-24 12:04|| 2005-05-24 12:04|| Front Page Top

#21 They'll try to stall any potential enemy by using the "sharp rebuke/stern reprimand/summit conference/here take lots of our money" defense. That should give the EU rapid reaction boys a year, year and a half, to get into position for the deadly strike...

Posted by tu3031 2005-05-24 12:06|| 2005-05-24 12:06|| Front Page Top

#22 CyberSarge - They tested it all the time when I was in. We would get the call (why was it always 1.5 hours after you collapsed in a druken stupor?) and load up, fly and train at another base for two weeks or so. The US military has it down to a science. The EU, well .... I like the After Action Hooker idea.

Posted by mmurray821 2005-05-24 12:34|| 2005-05-24 12:34|| Front Page Top

#23 Here's a news report from 2000 in which the EU dudes pledge to have a rapid reaction force operational in 2003. "Rapid" does not mean what they think it means.

Posted by Matt 2005-05-24 12:47|| 2005-05-24 12:47|| Front Page Top

#24 #17 Cap'n A
Sure, there'll be an EU in 2007. The European Ummah.

Posted by ST 2005-05-24 13:53|| 2005-05-24 13:53|| Front Page Top

#25 Re #23, LOL, way to go. Matt! Looks like they're in a close race with fusion, cold fusion, and John Kerry's Navy records.

Posted by Tom 2005-05-24 15:04|| 2005-05-24 15:04|| Front Page Top

#26 badanov - the kampfgruppe was *not* supposed to be a replacement for properly organized units, but rather was the preferred Staff method of organizing tactical forces from existing resources. The kampfgruppen were ad hoc or hasty tactical commands designed to provide combined arms articulation in the field. The division commander's chief of staff, or his operations guy, or his brigade commander, would be told off to operate separately from the main force on his own axis of operations, along with a couple platoons of tanks, a company or two of armored infantry if the division was so blessed, a couple sections of anti-tank guns, maybe a battery of self-propelled artillery, etc. A single division might be entirely broken up into multiple kampfgruppen, all of them on their own operational lines.

After a good many engagements, the division might be so reduced as to only be able to field a single kampfgruppe, or the shattered remnants of multiple divisions or entire army corps consolidated into composite kampfgruppen. But the overarcing concept here was that these were ad hoc staff-organized agglomerations of fractions of existing units.

These European "rapid reaction forces" would have to be existing formations in order to get them off the ground with any celerity. Kampfgruppen are assembled from forces already in theatre - these would be pre-packaged elements organized so as to rapidly insert them *into* the theatre.

Posted by Mitch H.">Mitch H. 2005-05-24 15:11|| http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]">[http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/] 2005-05-24 15:11|| Front Page Top

#27 Rapid Reaction.

No more 48 hour surrender conferences. By 2007, they will be able to surrender is 36 hours, tops.

Posted by mhw 2005-05-24 16:13|| 2005-05-24 16:13|| Front Page Top

#28 So if the EU takes longer than a week to stop the genocide, do they give the survivers free pizza?

Posted by Charles 2005-05-24 19:11|| 2005-05-24 19:11|| Front Page Top

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