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2005-03-20 Africa: North
Debkoids
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Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-20 8:41:23 AM|| || Front Page|| [11126 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Cool news about the revival of Punic culture.

The Carthaginians worshipped Baal (Hannibal means 'beloved of Baal') and they had human sacrifice.

Mummar could probably really get into this.
Posted by mhw 2005-03-20 9:06:44 AM||   2005-03-20 9:06:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 MHW, well, they still do. Baal's name in Southern Mesopotamia was Sin, and he later became the main god of the Arabian pantheon. He was then called al Illah--the God. He was a moon god. That's why you see the crescent as Islamic symbol.

As for the human sacrifice, that did not change either, now did it?

Tunisian Ministry of Culture is not really emphasizing Punic roots, just sort of mentioning it the sense that they 've been there for a while, much longer than the invading barbars from eastern desert. What is more emphasized is the Berber cultural heritage.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-20 9:24:23 AM||   2005-03-20 9:24:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 the Arab "League" doesn't even seem to get along as well as the leaders of my baseball Little "League" did.
Posted by PlanetDan  2005-03-20 9:44:21 AM||   2005-03-20 9:44:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Mhw

You have to understand that in Arab countries the times before the Arab invasions are called the Age of Darkness because the Arab/muslim is that there were no real civilization and that it was Arabs who civilized the countries.

And now we have Tunisia saying "we are the descendents of Carthago, the people whose navy went as far as Sweden and England, who circumnavigated Africa and whose Phenician ancestors invented alphabet, glass and the first pigment for textile". We have Morocco trying to revive the original culture who has been vilified for centuries. With luck the Iraquis will start remembering that the Summerians had solved the second degree equation when the Arabs were still milking camels. And many Christain Lebanese have ever been saying "we are not Arabs but Phenicians".

Having people take pride on the achievemnts of their pre-islamic past is a step toward them looking at Arab conquest as a foreign invasion who only brought calamities and Islam as an instrument of domination and enrichement for the invaders. So this is a very positive development in the WOT.
Posted by JFM  2005-03-20 10:05:40 AM||   2005-03-20 10:05:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Mo will go with whichever thingy has the coolest hats.
Posted by .com 2005-03-20 10:08:37 AM||   2005-03-20 10:08:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 JFM, also, most of the North Africa and also ME was christian at the time of Mohammedan conquest.

Re Iraqis, I consider it highly ironic that they call the foreign jihadis 'Arabs'. Not foreign Arabs, just that, 'Arabs'. It is now becoming a term that kids are using as a qualifier of despicability, IOW a dirty word.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-20 10:39:00 AM||   2005-03-20 10:39:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Looks like some people’re starting to think being called ’Arab’ is an expletive.

Either that or it's a re-packaging. You know, like 'progressive' instead of 'liberal'.
Posted by Pappy 2005-03-20 11:28:34 AM||   2005-03-20 11:28:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 ...Muammar is right, his people are Berbers - but more importantly, they're also the desendants of the Barbary Pirates, who gave this nation such fits in its infancy. (The surviving Libyan royalty are the direct descendants of the Karamanli family, which ruled the old Kingdom of Tripoli off-and-on for centuries)
Interestingly enough, it was 200 years ago this month that a loopy US diplomat and seven Marines rattled their cage so badly that the Berbers backed off for almost a decade. There's a line in a song about it - something about 'to the shores of Tripoli"...*G*

Mike
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-03-20 11:40:51 AM||   2005-03-20 11:40:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Pappy, somehow I doubt that Iraqi kids have a feel for deconstructional process, let alone any knowledge in that regard. When adult Iraqis started using the label, it was undoubtedly a contraction of 'foreign Arabs', but now if you ask one "Are you Arab", you would get: "No, I am Iraqi".
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-20 11:40:54 AM||   2005-03-20 11:40:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Three cheers for the History Dept. at Rantburg U.!

JFM, Sobiesky, one of my Eritrean friends (now a good Catholic, as it happens) recalls a family tradition of being Jews forcibly converted to Christianity by Constantine.
Posted by trailing wife 2005-03-20 12:07:17 PM||   2005-03-20 12:07:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Sobiesky, I suspect they are also rejecting the pan-Arabism that Saddam pushed.
Posted by too true 2005-03-20 12:27:05 PM||   2005-03-20 12:27:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 TW, color me skeptic. Here is why:

Constantin dies 327 CE.

4th Century CE — Christianity is introduced into the Axum dynasty in Ethiopia.

7th Century — With the spread of Islam, Ethiopia is isolated from most of the Christian world. The Beta Israel enjoy a period of independence before the power struggles of the middle ages.

9th Century — The earliest apparent reference to the Beta Israel appears in the diary of Eldad Hadani, a merchant and traveler claiming to have been a citizen of an autonomous Jewish state in eastern Africa inhabited by the tribes of Dan, Naftali, Gad, and Asher.

13th Century — The Solominic dynasty (which claims decent from Solomon and Sheba) assumes control. During the next 300 years (1320-1620), intermittent wars are fought between the Christian kings of Ethiopia and those of the Beta Israel, which finally result in the Beta Israel's loss of independence.

16th Century — Rabbi David B. Zimra, known as the Radbaz, issues a legal response in Cairo declaring that "those who come from the land Cush (Ethiopia) are without a doubt the Tribe of Dan..." He confirms that Ethiopian Jews are fully Jewish.

1622 — Christians conquer the Ethiopian Jewish Kingdom following 300 years of warfare. The vanquished Jews are sold as slaves, forced to baptize, and denied the right to own land.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-20 12:29:22 PM||   2005-03-20 12:29:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 too true, Saddam was trying to resurrect a dead horse. His reason was that he wanted to create a clout of legitimacy for his expansive tastes. No one was really buying it.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-20 12:39:42 PM||   2005-03-20 12:39:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Understood, Sobiesky. But as an ideology, pan-Arabism claimed superiority over the individual countries. The jihadis do too, they just call it restoring the Khalifate. ;-)

Listening to the Iraqis take on the pro-insurgency Arabs at the BBC board and elsewhere, I think they've had it with all that crap.
Posted by too true 2005-03-20 12:46:20 PM||   2005-03-20 12:46:20 PM|| Front Page Top

03:45 stickyour democracyinyourarses
23:57 Bobby
23:32 Anonymoose
23:27 Anonymoose
23:27 phil_b
23:19 Sock Puppet O’ Doom
23:12 Bomb-a-rama
22:56 Bomb-a-rama
22:50 Bomb-a-rama
22:46 .com
22:39 AzCat
22:35 Robert Crawford
22:33 Robert Crawford
22:33 Pappy
22:26 AzCat
22:17 Bomb-a-rama
22:14 Bomb-a-rama
21:35 Barbara Skolaut
21:29 JosephMendiola
21:17 Michael Sheehan
21:11 .com
21:04 .com
20:57 .com
20:55 Frank G









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