Article

2005-02-20 Europe

Official: U.S., Germany Repairing Breach

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Posted by Fred 2005-02-20 12:05:57 AM|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 [semi-rant]
Let's talk about root problem, pragmatism and fairness. No punches pulled.

Root Problem: The demonization tactics against the US & Bush used by Schroeder's regime to get re-elected. They made the US the focus of German frustrations and deepened what level of mistrust was there dramatically, same as the Arab world uses the Paleos - no difference. Non-negotiable: I don't want to be buds with Schroeder or Fischer. Period. I'd develop a cold and skip meeting Schroeder. While they are in office, the Ice Age is on.

Pragmatism: Civility, yes, but no more until we see what the German people want. I assume they are not Schroeder / Fischer - we shall see by whom they elect. If they elect leaders who are rational we'll be glad to meet them in the middle - we've been waiting there quite awhile, now. Ice Age shows signs that a warming spell is possible.

Fairness: The first job of a new Govt should be an ongoing and serious campaign to undo the Bush / US demonization insanity. They whipped up public sentiment against the US - and anything the US did, particularly Iraq - and it's the job of the German Govt to undo the damage perp'ed by the German Govt. All of it. Yeah, I know, they're in Afghanistan. Fine and good - but let's be real: that's part of their god-damned NATO obligation, it's not out of the goodness of their hearts. Beyond that, they've been intransigent and collaborated with France in lock-step on almost everything else.

Credit where due. Blame where due. No punches pulled. No bullshit. No pretenses. No posturing.

Bush could have been much nastier to both Germany and France, but wasn't - most Americans would've backed it, too, at least 51%. But he didn't fall for the Chirac bait trail - he played fair even while they were inhaling Kool Aid like it was going out of style and France actively sought ways to stab us in the back, front, throat, you name it. We owe no apologies and none should be forthcoming. We do not need to move toward their position - we've been in the right place all along. Everybody should cut the public statement crap - let's just do what should be done and get on with it.
[/semi-rant]

When the German Govt wants the relationship to be based upon reality, again, and it's clear the German people are behind the move, we'll be there waiting. But not Schroeder / Fischer.

Posted by .com 2005-02-20 2:14:53 AM|| 2005-02-20 2:14:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Genau, .com.

And to correct the (inevitably) distorted premise of the whole discussion, it's not a case of meeting the Germans half-way. It's a case of Germany's crawling back into some sort of favor with us.

We haven't and won't change one iota of our policy and operations in Iraq to suit Germany. Period. Obviously. So all the "movement" is on their side.

Germany, AFAIK, never altered their actual behavior of relevance (intel cooperation, naval patrols in support of GWoT, Afghan deployments) in any way to reflect the "split". If they want to "do more" (train Iraqi cops, help repair infrastructure, etc.), fine. If not, fine.

As James Lileks brilliantly put it:

"Germany? Whatever.

And it took a lot of dead Americans to be able to write that."

Posted by Verlaine in Iraq 2005-02-20 3:10:55 AM|| 2005-02-20 3:10:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 This week's edition of The Economist. Heh.

Posted by Seafarious 2005-02-20 3:23:31 AM|| 2005-02-20 3:23:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Here goes another red-green government. The voters of the northernmost state Schleswig-Holstein just threw out the most incompetent prime minister (SPD) of a German land.

NEXT

Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-20 3:55:11 PM|| 2005-02-20 3:55:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I have reservations with the Schroeder/Fischer focus of comments here.

The world is pretty upside down now that the cold war is really over but history isn't. New sides are being picked for the next match. France clearly wants to manage the other team and has heavily recruited the Arabs and Chinese.

The Germans are going to have to make a choice here, France or the U. S. And France is certainly willing to make it tough for a German government that wants to side with the U. S., expecially with the high level of anti-Americanism of the Geman populace. I'm not so sure a CDU government could side with the U. S. against France in the near future, especially if France puts the EU on the line.

And I expect similar problems in post-Blair Britain. The problem is with the people, not the leaders. Till the 68 generation is out of power, it will be touch and go.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-20 4:16:12 PM|| 2005-02-20 4:16:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Mrs Davis, I must disagree here. Germany must never be forced to make a choice between the United States and France, it's biggest neighbor. It never did before.

Germany has always pushed for balance. Adenauer welcomed De Gaulle and signed the Elysee Treaty with him, but not after throwing out De Gaulle's provisions against the United States.

Germany will need to accomodate both. But when it came to defense Germany has always put the United States first. We need to return there, strengthening NATO, reigning in France without opposing it.

The importance of France, if it continues its current policy, will fade further. Same with Germany. But we will stop the decline.

Take this from an old Cold NATO warrior.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-20 4:35:36 PM|| 2005-02-20 4:35:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Before, ironically, we had the Russians to keep the French in line. Now that threat is gone and the French are showing their true colors. These games they are playing will go out of their control before long.

Or else the Germans need to find a way to get them to clean up their act. The problem I fear is that the well of public opinion has been so thoroughly poisoned by the 68 generation that a responsible German government will not be able to restrain the French.

I hope you're right, but I fear you are not.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-20 4:44:24 PM|| 2005-02-20 4:44:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Chirac won't have much fun with neither Merkel nor Stoiber.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-20 4:46:19 PM|| 2005-02-20 4:46:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 I am sure TGA will correct me but I am not afraid to learn. BTW with a last name of Hess I can't be considered a rabid anti-german.

I don't think you will see a change in government in Germany. Sorry. I have to go with .com. No punches pulled. Schroeder is a useless backstabber who will resort to anti US propaganda again. He is in lockstep with Chirac in wanting to be a power in opposition to the US. Why the heck else would he want to sell arms to China?

Fischer would have preferred the Communists won the cold war. I mean when you have a FM that is proud of the fact he was street fighter who chucked rocks, bricks and firebombs at the police and was in active support of the RAF and Carlos you have major problems. He is in support of a EU that is a counter weight to the US not a partner. The Eu constitution is a document that will put the EU on a collision course with the United States.

When Bush shakes these peoples hand he should count his fingers afterward.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-02-20 5:50:37 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-02-20 5:50:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 SPoD, the anti-American campaign won't work another time.

Fool me once...

Schroeder got a short boost from the fact that the opposition hasn't quite got it's act together. But that didn't last.

No, in 2006 he'll fold, trust me on that.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-20 5:55:03 PM|| 2005-02-20 5:55:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I based much of what I posted regards the German people on commentary here in Rantburg U. I have come to see "Blue" and "Red" areas in Germany, much like the US. For instance, I see a demonstration in Berlin demonizing Bush (Warmonger / Blood for Oil / etc) as no different than such a display in NY. Blue power center. From TGA's comments, I have come to think of "Red" Germany as flyover country, just as in the US, as well... and they are in the majority just as in the US and, in the end, Schroeder's days are numbered.

For me, Schroeder's behavior in getting himself re-elected was unforgivable. Fischer is a political calculator who has done nothing to demonstrate he's anything but an opportunist riding Schroeder's gambit, as far as I can see. I, too, will never trust him, given his past.

I will give the benefit of the doubt to the German people - everyone can be manipulated once... If they correct that mistake and move back to the center, then I am more than happy to wait for them there. If not, well, we'll move on ahead and leave them to stew.

BTW, I feel the same about the French people. They've been fed a load of shit for a long long time. Reality, should they elect someone who'll allow reality to shine in once in awhile, will begin waking some of them up to the fact that we, the US, are not the source of their problems, nor are we a realistic scapegoat, we are the friends they've turned their backs upon. Perhaps they, too, will come to the middle, someday. JFM certainly shines out as an example of a man who knows WTF he's talking about and who his friends are. You never know. Economic implosion could bring someone like Sabrine Herold to power - and she's got much of her shit wired tight. She'd blow the wheels off the anti-US wagon and expose it for a lie.

It is a truth of politics that, when things are going badly and there is no easy solution at hand, an effective technique is to select a bogeyman for distraction. And a foreign one is better than a domestic one, so you can add nationalism to the fervor. It's very effective and has been used by the best manipulators throughout history.

I stand by my post. My $0.02.

Posted by .com 2005-02-20 6:18:59 PM|| 2005-02-20 6:18:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Not exactly the flyover thing. South and Southwest (prosperous, ex-US-zone) are firmly in the conservative field, and they have the high tech as well.

In Munich, about 2000 demonstrators showed up against the Security Conference and most were imported from the North and Northeast.

I think we'll see gradual success in the Middle East and nothing convinces more like success.

The Iraqi elections had quite a few anti-Bush people thinking.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-20 6:29:41 PM|| 2005-02-20 6:29:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 But it was more than one election. Bush's policies have worked. Every attempt at doing it the "European way" has failed. Bush after 9/11 said to hell with that.

Now we have had elections in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine (Arafat died on his own may he rot in hell rot in hell.) But still Europe has not shifted away from it's path. It is still anti US and anti Israel in it's main stream press and media. Our way worked. But very few will admit it. Instead we hear excuses for lack of support for what works. The claim that all the European wars has made them smarter, wiser, better and more peaceful is bullshit. There is a lack of will to actually do what needs done.

I doubt Bush will bring any one in Europe to a life changing experience that corrects that.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-02-20 6:55:08 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-02-20 6:55:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Brit Hume, today, had an interesting comment. In his SotU address Bush mentioned Freedom 20+ times. In his Inauguration, another 18 (IIRC) times. Schroeder's recent speech at the Blah Blah Security Conf had zero references to Freedom. He did mention "stability" 8 times, however.

Hume's take, which I found interesting, was that the focus here in America is on progress - looking forward. In Europe it's on status quo - looking at what, their navels? [Italics are my take...]

May be some meat on that bone.

Posted by .com 2005-02-20 7:18:18 PM|| 2005-02-20 7:18:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Hell there is a whole meal there .com

I still have this question. Why does Germany want to sell arms to China? It's insane to arm them with NATOs weapons and technology.

Crickets. There have been crickets every time I have asked that question.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-02-20 9:31:03 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-02-20 9:31:03 PM|| Front Page Top

00:05 Jame Retief
23:57 BigEd
23:55 BigEd
23:54 .com
23:52 Phil Fraering
23:48 BigEd
23:46 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)
23:46 Jame Retief
23:44 gromky
23:17 gromky
23:07 John in Tokyo
23:06 .com
23:05 BigEd
23:03 Mrs. Davis
23:03 .com
22:56 BH
22:53 Anonymoose
22:38 Fred
22:38 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:36 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:33 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:32 Zhang Fei
22:29 Zhang Fei
22:26 JP