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2005-02-03 Britain
IRA Reneges on Commitment to Disarm
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Posted by Bulldog 2005-02-03 2:57:43 AM|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Oops: Page One please.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-02-03 2:58:30 AM||   2005-02-03 2:58:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Try the Mossad approach and liquidate a few of the key figures in the IRA - the big guys financiers, logisticians etc? As soon as the first boom goes off in London just send the SAS in and 'remove' the entire leadership.. I suppose we can arrange a couple of mysterious fatal car crashes for Adams/ McGuinness or simply contract the job to the UDA/UVF. Pope dead yet?
Posted by Howard UK 2005-02-03 4:09:31 AM||   2005-02-03 4:09:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 So, "guns don't kill people, people kill poeple," and "I'll give up my gun when they pry it out of my cold dead hand," works here but not there? Has the DUP decommissioned yet? We have 30+ thousand gun deaths in this country yearly. How many do the IRA kill a year?
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 7:43:57 AM||   2005-02-03 7:43:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Most American gun owners are responsible and respectable members of society, using their weapons for sport and/or self defense. If the same were true in Ireland, then disarmament would not be at issue. However, most gun owners over there use their weapons for crime and/or harming those who disagree with them. This is a significant difference, as I'm sure you'll agree, Weird Al.
Posted by trailing wife 2005-02-03 7:55:23 AM||   2005-02-03 7:55:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 "Security sources believe the Irish Republican Army (IRA) alone has enough weaponry to equip a small country's army and sustain a campaign for at least a decade. The arms -- about 1,700 weapons, 50 heavy and general-purpose machine guns, 40 rocket launchers, grenades, mortars, flame throwers, booby traps, ground-to-air missiles and an estimated two tons of Semtex -- are hidden in deep bunkers, almost certainly in the Irish Republic, their whereabouts known to just a few. The IRA's arsenal was amassed over several years, some of it smuggled in from America and continental Europe, but most of it in several shiploads from Libya in the mid-1980s."

Just a bunch of small arms enthusiasts, huh, Weird Al? Since when have you thought it a good idea to allow terrorists and bank robbers access to guns?

Has the DUP decommissioned yet?

The DUP will never decommission, because it has never commissioned. It's a political party, not a terrorist organisation. The reason the mutual decommissioning process, involving both Loyalists and Republicans, has broken down is that the IRA used the DUP's request for photographic evidence as a pretext for shelving the decommissioning process, claiming they felt that such a procedure would be "humiliating".

How many do the IRA kill a year?

How many people did Timothy McVeigh kill in 1994?
Posted by Bulldog  2005-02-03 8:20:55 AM||   2005-02-03 8:20:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Where's the surprise meter graphic?
Posted by someone 2005-02-03 9:49:17 AM||   2005-02-03 9:49:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The IRA has pretty good justification to be called both. They have certainly attacked civilian targets as well as military ones, making them less than upstanding. They have decommissioned their heavy weapons and bomb making materials. I misspoke earlier, mentioning the DUP when I meant the RUC. They have decommissioned? I haven't heard about it. And they are estimated to have about ten times the arms of the IRA, and have been equally likely to attack civilians. More so. So, the ultimate question is whether the IRA should trust the british to the extent of handing in all their weapons.

To trailing wife: most gun owners in this country are law abiding. We also have some real nut cases, who have armament caches that probably equal anything the IRA has. The reason a high proportion of people in Ireland with weapons are considered outlaws (the IRA, not the RUC. I haven't heard them denounced in similar terms) is that the average person doesn't have the right to own guns.

I'm not against ownership of weapons. I gave the quotes above to illustrate what I consider one extreme point of view in this country. I knew I would generate a storm...that's OK. I don't think the IRA should decommision until 26 + 6 = 1. Sorry.
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 10:10:53 AM||   2005-02-03 10:10:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I believe the RUC/PSNI have not decommissioned. That is because they are the police. Perhaps you have them confused with some other organization. The IRA are terrorists. No better than al Qaeda, regardless of the merit of the cause for which they slaughter innocents.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-03 10:18:32 AM||   2005-02-03 10:18:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Oh. You're one of those.

They have certainly attacked civilian targets as well as military ones, making them less than upstanding.

Not "less than upstanding". Attacking civilians makes them terrorists. For that they should be exterminated, and their political goals should be consigned to the sewers, never to be considered until their crimes have been forgotten.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-02-03 10:20:26 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-02-03 10:20:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 

Someone wrote on RB recently - One man's Nazi is another man's German hero. Go figure..
Posted by Howard UK 2005-02-03 10:28:25 AM||   2005-02-03 10:28:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I'm not "one of those", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. I thought I was clear. Both the IRA and the RUC can be considered terrorists, but only one side gets called. it. The RUC may be the police now, but they sure weren't in the past. They were essentially thugs working on the protestant side, and equally as liable for atrocities as the IRA. I would suggest an excellent book on the subject "The IRA", written by Tim Pat Coogan. Or any one of half a dozen of others. Or does everyone else here feel that the british have been even handed understanding landlords of Ireland for the past 700 years or so? Apparently so. And please don't give me this cultural relativism baloney. Ain't true. They're all terrorists. And if someone has called Nazis german hero's it's news to me, and evidence of a mind a lot more disturbed than mine.
Apparently Howard just isn't quite ready to give up the last remnants of empire. Go figure.
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 10:49:13 AM||   2005-02-03 10:49:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 The RUC may be the police now, but they sure weren't in the past. LOL!
Posted by Howard UK 2005-02-03 11:06:09 AM||   2005-02-03 11:06:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 The next time i run from an IRA bomb alert in central London I'll console myself with the fact that the immediate threat to my personal safety is the fault of my forefathers and I'll beat my chest with guilt... Hang on! I'm of Irish descent... errrr...

Anyone IRA scum sets off a bomb near me and they deserve to have my government pop a cap in their ass.
Posted by Howard UK 2005-02-03 11:10:05 AM||   2005-02-03 11:10:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Apparently Howard just isn't quite ready to give up the last remnants of empire. Go figure.

I presume your one of those Americans who happily drops dollars in the NorAid tin, thereby sponsoring the cold blooded murder of men, women and children by cowards on the far side of the Atlantic. How do you feel about Muslims who donate to Hamas?
Posted by Bulldog  2005-02-03 11:33:04 AM||   2005-02-03 11:33:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Weird Al - Look, knock it off with the "700 years ago...." crap. EVERY NATION on this planet has screwed over their neighbors and pissed on the tribe next door, and if by some chance they haven't done that yet (unlikely), it's just because for whatever reason they couldn't get their sh*t together in time to take advantage of the opportunity.

Anyone who knows anything about Irish history knows about the abuse of the locals by the British. Still, I don't see how setting off a bomb in downtown London is an intelligent reply to, say, the Potato Famine.

BTW....if I am correct, RUC stands for "Royal Ulster CONSTABULARY". Lemme borrow Mucky's dictionary (or however he spells it). "Of or relating to a constable". You know....a cop, as we put it on this side of the pond. Their responsibility was law enforcement and anti-terrorism. They did like to beat up the Catholics. Occasionally they killed them, too. Unfortunately, abuse of police power is nothing new. But from the start, they always were the police, so to say that they started out as something else is silly.

In any event....they don't exist anymore, and haven't since 2001, when Tony Blair started the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

If you mean to call Ian Paisley a terrorist, or a terrorist sympathizer, fine....just make sure you get your facts in a row.

And don't drag out that stupid cliche of "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Nope. A freedom fighter goes after the government.....you know, people who can fire back. A terrorist goes after kids, old people, anyone else who basically has to just sit there, take it and die. There's a huge difference.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-03 11:47:49 AM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-02-03 11:47:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 And please don't give me this cultural relativism baloney. Ain't true. They're all terrorists.

It would appear in your book that some are much less 'terrorist' than others.
Posted by Pappy 2005-02-03 11:51:14 AM||   2005-02-03 11:51:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 im one of those americans who despise the IRA. Terror is terror. The Brits conceded enough by allowing Sein Fein into negotiations and the NI govt at all. They MUST disarm completely for the agreements to continue. The US govt MUST reassert its absolute support for the UK in insisting on disarmament.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-02-03 12:03:58 PM||   2005-02-03 12:03:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Howard UK..."Pope dead yet?" Just what the f**k does that mean? You sound like one of the so-called Moderate Muslims who hides his hate for the Jews until he thinks that no one is looking, or Senator Byrd who has freshly starched sheets in the closet. Somehow it amazes me that it takes so little to bring out the lurking vileness in people.
Posted by Sgt.D.T. 2005-02-03 12:04:23 PM||   2005-02-03 12:04:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 RUC was formed by protestants, was 100% manned by protestants, and had the job of making sure the folks on the other side of the tracks behaved. If the IRA sets off a bomb in your nieghborhood, hunt them down and kill them. RUC has been "integrated" - they now recruit catholics. Well and good. Basicly, the IRA are terrorists, but the RUC are OK...schizophrenic at best. Don't kid yourself the RUC has been disbanded. They've simply gone underground. Read the history of the IRA for god's sake before you start screaming. They have plenty of reason not to trust the gov't with their lives. And until the recent holdup, they have behaved pretty well in the past few years. Apparently I'm the only one who isn't willing to give the brits a free pass simply because they're british
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 12:49:54 PM||   2005-02-03 12:49:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Yup, he's one of those.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-03 12:58:13 PM||   2005-02-03 12:58:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Wierd Al, I think you mean the UDA/UVA or red hand, are you sure you mean the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary)?

I've never condoned the IRA's actions wrt any sort of terrorist or criminal activity involving civilians, terrorism is terrorism. Sticking a bomb in a mail box or car and letting it blow to kill whomever happens to stroll by is cowardice in my book. OTOH, and I may draw some fire on this, wrt going after purely military targets - I don't want to see any Brit lads get killed but I do respect that aspect of the IRAs guerilla warfare. Personally I wish it was one island under the Republic, though I know it's not that simplistic & there are lots of issues from both the N.Ireland protestant and catholic sides.

I've had family in the IRA, some buried in the IRA cemetery in Belfast, others in Derry. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of it. It's an awkward situation as I've great respect for the British soldiers but think N.Ireland should be returned to the Republic of Ireland.
Posted by Jarhead 2005-02-03 1:00:18 PM||   2005-02-03 1:00:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 re: 12 I'm glad you got some enjoyment out of my comment about the RUC. The Royal Ulster Constabulary were a bunch of strong arm artists from the 1920's right through the troubles of the 70's and 80's. A comparison with the brown shirts is probably not too far-fetched. As to the IRA fighting governments rather than people, they did just that for many years. First against the british gov't until the sweet heart deal that Michael Collins signed in 1922 allowing the british to maintain controlof the six northern counties. Next in the Irish civil war that occured from 1922 until 1924, fighting against Collins and the interim Irish government. They went into eclipse for many years, only to re-appear when the troubles started. At that time the splinter group Provos appeared. They were a frankly marxist group, funded by people such as Libya, and were responsible for many of the civilian bombings. They were very nasty people. Even the traditional IRA disowned them. Just to further infuriate people, if that's necessary, it warms my heart to see Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams sitting in meetings with the Brits. Not to mention the fact that they have in fact held their people in check since negotiations began. Will they ever trust the brits? When hell freezes over, more or less.

Just to set the record straight, no, I'm not a marxist, communist, or etc. Don't waste you breath. I too have taken the libertarian test. Only missed on one answer.
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 1:06:41 PM||   2005-02-03 1:06:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Weird Al - As a Catholic who has actually been to Ireland, I'm in no way, shape or form an apologist for the Brits. They have, without question, acted abominably. There is plenty of evidence of that in Ireland still should you care to look.

However....The RUC doesn't exist any more. Period. What about that do you NOT understand? I did not dismiss the idea that there are Protestants who act just as badly as the IRA (or don't you know who the hell Paisley is??)

I stand by my definition of terrorist v. freedom fighter. It's pretty simple to see who falls on what side of that argument.

I am not going to give the IRA a pass because they call themselves "Catholics". Bullshit. There is nothing in Catholic dogma that justifies blowing up innocents. They know it, they just ignore the inconvenient parts of doctrine.

Just keep putting in the cash in the NorAid jar and thinking you're helping the good fight...If you do, Weird Al, your hands are as bloody as the imbecile that built the bomb or shot at some kids.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-03 1:15:24 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-02-03 1:15:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 23: Thanks, but I've been there too. You beiieve that just because the british gov't disbanded the official RUC that they have disappeared? I have some great land to sell you in Florida. Actually is above the water line at least 8 hours a day. Nobody gives the IRA a "pass". I do not however simply give a knee jerk in the other direction. We are after all talking about whether the IRA will give up it's weapons. I don't believe they will as long as the british hold the final say on the political structure in northern ireland, which they have amply proved by rescinding the powers of the elected officials.
As to NorAid, I admit I don't even know what the hell you're talking about Never heard of them.. When you can't win on facts, start throwing insults?
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 1:21:50 PM||   2005-02-03 1:21:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 On the insult thing, i must apologise for the Pope comment - it's hard to shift out of caveman mode without coffee - also hard to escape the moronic religious/football terrace culture. Apologies to one and all.

Posted by Howard UK 2005-02-03 1:38:14 PM||   2005-02-03 1:38:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 I have this thing. All Bombers need to die. I don't give a flying leap who's side they are on. When you target Moms and Kids you lose the right to anything but a bullet behind the ear. The last thing North Ireland needs is explosives, heavy machine guns, mortars and rockets. The IRA can keep the assult rifles and hand guns. Everything else has to go. Put beyond use isn't enough. Cut the weapons up and burn the explosives in a very public way.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-02-03 2:00:16 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com]  2005-02-03 2:00:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 OK, Let's see, Weird Al...

An American group decides to start a campaign to reclaim North America on behalf of the pre-European population, and do so through violence. Let's call them the IAA (Indiginous American Army). They plant a bomb at your local mall one Saturday morning and kill YOUR wife or YOUR children or YOUR parents because they hold THEM responsible for the actions of dead ancestors who may or may not have engaged in an injustice against their own dead ancestors. They talk about the Sand Creek Massacre and the Wounded Knee Massacre a lot, and prefer not to mention the Jamestown Massacre and what happened in the Wyoming Valley. Let's get back to the present: YOU are lucky. YOU just lose your legs.

And MY response (as a Brit) is to say: "you had it coming". Payback's a bitch. And your police force and army are no better than the bombers - they're just descended from Wild West lawmen and the contemporary US soldiers who used to shoot Indians on sight.

Like that?
Posted by Bulldog  2005-02-03 2:15:26 PM||   2005-02-03 2:15:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 WA - Ok...let's go over this one more time.

I have never stated that there weren't extremely bad people in the RUC. I have also never stated that the bad actors haven't gone over to another group, where they act as badly or even worse today. Where you get that from my comments is a mystery.

And for someone who thinks they know a lot about Ireland, your ignorance of NorAid is...interesting. NorAid is/was a not-so-subtle financial drive for the benefit of the IRA. Lots of Irish bars, especially around Boston, used to have jars for donations. There were some other names, but that was the best known. Since I haven't been up there since 9/11 I don't know if the jars are still there. I just know I haven't seen one in my neck of the woods for a long time. The only way you could say that it went to old people and kids is if you clarified it and said it went to BLOWING UP old people and kids.

They aren't going to give up their weapons, simply because they only feel big & tough when they can make someone else scared to death. The current batch using the name aren't really out to reunify Ireland like the original gang was back in the 20's. They just get their jollies out of being pathetic little killers.

I don't throw insults, Weird Al. I just put out inconvenient (to you) facts. If you choose to be insulted by the truth, that's not my problem.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-03 2:15:31 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-02-03 2:15:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 The photo of the IRA member looks much like the terrorists operating in Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, etc. How is the IRA different than these terrorists. How are the IRA different than Tim McVeigh, Bob Matthews (Christian Identity bank robber and terrorist), or the North Hollywood bankrobbers. The results are the same. Innocents get wounded or killed for some bullshit cause that generally falls apart on serious scrutiny.
Posted by Hupereque Cligum6229 2005-02-03 2:52:33 PM||   2005-02-03 2:52:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Oh, boy, have I stirred up the hornet's nest. I meant to. For (I hope) one last time. I don't live in Boston, so I don't hang out in irish bars there, so I don't know the name NorAid. Do I know money has been sent from the US to ireland to buy guns? Of course I do. The american irish financed virtually the entire thing. The financing has been explored in other books, some by Coogan, some by others. Interestingly, people in the Republic don't care about the IRA one way or the other, and don't really think much about re-unification. If pushed, they tell you that it's happening financially anyway, and that's all they care about. The republic is in better financial shape than the north, in contrast to what was true twenty years ago. It's just another market to them. Most of them don't give a damn about the british one way or the other, except in terms of sport. Some of them are rabid fans of british soccer teams.

Actually, I agree with SPOD. Kill the bombers, get rid of the heavy weapons. If the IRA wants rifles and hand guns, nobody should care.

Finally, I agree with a statement made many years ago by a sci-fi writer named A E Van Vogt, who wrote a book called The Weapon Shops of Isher. I recommend it highly. A quote from the preface is instructive: " The right to have weapons is the right to be free." Period.
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 2:53:34 PM||   2005-02-03 2:53:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Weird Al: The 30K + gun death statistic is a bit distorted. In 2003 there were 9,638 murders caused by firearms. The remainder of deaths were caused by suicides and accidental discharges. This is down from 11,348 in 2001. During 2001 (the latest data I can find on gun related suicides), the number of suicides by fire arms is 16,869. The total in the last few years has fallen under 30K.

Sorry to be such a pedant, but the 30K figure is another one of those figures that the MSM keeps tossing around without any explanation or breakdown and it drives me nuts.
Posted by 11A5S 2005-02-03 3:46:06 PM||   2005-02-03 3:46:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 #31. Thanks for the correction. I'm not surprised to hear it. So roughly 25k deaths of all kinds. Not a problem.I've probably been the same way in this series. The provisional IRA is as ugly a bunch as ever came done the pike, with a marxist philosophy that promoted anarchy as a way of social change, just as in other parts of the world. I hope they're all dead. The traditional people are actually working in the system at this point, but asking them to trust the brits and give up their total stock of weapons is pretty naive. I meant the quote before, the right to have weapons is the right to be free........from governments you don't trust.
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 4:02:06 PM||   2005-02-03 4:02:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 "The IRA can keep the assult rifles and hand guns."

-I agree, and no one should care about rifles or pistols. OTOH, I don't think they will ever give up all their weapons, even though I think they should give up the heavy stuff.

I was in Ireland in 1996. As I recall the police force there when I went to Derry was the RUC. I remember that I thought they looked like bobbies at the time.

I don't know anything about any Nor-aid as I'm not from Boston. I do know that many Irish Americans did indeed finance IRA activities by whatever means, though I've never heard of nor-aid. The British government does not deserve a pass and neither do the provos.
Posted by Jarhead 2005-02-03 4:18:29 PM||   2005-02-03 4:18:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 A bit of history. While Northern Ireland was technically part of the UK prior to around 1970 it was internally autonomous. The RUC was more or less a regular policeforce, but there was a militia force under RUC control called the B Specials who's only task was to keep the Catholics under control and responsible for widespread anti-catholic violence. The government was entirely controlled by protestants and discrimination was widespread and systematic.

This was the environment in which the modern IRA developed. I won't pretend to make sense of the IRAs politics - mixture of Marxism, Irish Nationalism and good oldfashioned anti-Brit sentiments, but they were never terrorists in the sense of randomly killing people like AQ or Saddam Hussien. Their terrorism was intended to make NI cost too much to run for the Brits. You can't plant thousands of bombs as the IRA did and not kill people. I have personally seen at least a dozen IRA bombs explode and I never felt particularly threatened by them.

Protestants were the primary cause of random killings especially bombings and Paisley was almost certainly involved. He was saved by an amnesty around 1973 and was smart enough to keep his hands clean after then (I've met him).

As I have remarked before, terrorist organizations mutate into criminal gangs. Its the way they fund themselves. The modern IRA is mostly a criminal gang, but one with considerable popular support. Sein Fein (the IRA's political arm) consistently gets the largest share of the Catholic vote. The reality of N. Irish politics is you have to deal with the IRA. Like it or not they represent a large consituency.

otherwise the right to have weapons is the right to be free........from governments you don't trust. Or at least negotiate from a position of strength.
Posted by phil_b 2005-02-03 5:13:23 PM||   2005-02-03 5:13:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 I quoted from memory. The actual quote is: The right to BUY weapons is the right to be free." IMHO, even more basic.
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 5:41:23 PM||   2005-02-03 5:41:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 (or don't you know who the hell Paisley is??)

I always thought those were patterns on shirts.....they kinda reminded me of paramecium...
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-02-03 5:52:36 PM||   2005-02-03 5:52:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 I know who the hell Paisley is. Just didn't want to actually write his name. I was told not too long ago by someone in the republic that his son is just like him, only meaner and not very bright. Wonderfull.
Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-03 6:28:57 PM||   2005-02-03 6:28:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 I shouldn't say this prolly but Ian Pasley is a Ass. He is a stiff necked, obstreperous pig with blood on his hands. At least some of the "troubles" largely are his fault. It's too bad he isn't dead. I have no love for the IRA but his Protestant camp is as guilty as the IRA. A well placed brick to his head is long past due.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-02-03 6:46:33 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com]  2005-02-03 6:46:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Tough f-in' luck. They had their chance with Trimble, played hudna games instead of actually trying to settle anything, and got Paisley. More false promises broken, more Arab-style obsession with "face", and we're beginning to see a pattern here...

Who's contemptible enough still to defend the IRA? Too many folks, it seems. This thread makes me sick -- there aren't any "buts" on terrorism.
Posted by someone 2005-02-03 6:54:40 PM||   2005-02-03 6:54:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Thanks Phil, some good points.

When I was in Derry I walked the bog-side. Very sad, but I never felt threatened by anyone. The locals would say watch out for this pub because its IRA or watch out for that one because its loyalists owned. I never gave a shit. I went where I pleased and was warmly received by protestants and catholics a like.

As an American of strong Irish background and being a catholic I often empathized w/the Irish up north but never condoned any targeting of civilians or criminal activities on either side. Though I think elected officials who legislate unfair laws are fair game. I think the catholics did get a raw deal and I hope Ireland does re-unite under the Republic, however, if that happens the catholics need to remember that Ireland is also just as much the home of the protestants as well, they needed to be treated fair like any other people. I know some of the history but not nearly as much as some of the others on here.

someone - if this thread makes you sick, maybe you should try another one. If I was a catholic in N.I. I'd never give up my guns, ever.
Posted by Jarhead 2005-02-03 9:24:50 PM||   2005-02-03 9:24:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 The modern IRA is mostly a criminal gang

Agreed. History blurs. Especially in today's world of globalized funds flows and multiple links between international crime syndicates, narcoterrorists, rogue states and terror movements, it's harder and harder to say that terror movements are essentially political in nature. In fact FARC, the IRA, Hamas, Fatah, AQ and many other groups are so heavily interpenetrated with criminal activity and internecine thuggery that it's hard to distinguish their m.o. from that of your garden-variety mafia family.

These days, the political agenda is less clear than the profiteering, the drug-running, the racketeering, the shake-downs of the people these thugs claim to lead. Like Arafat's organizations, like FARC, the IRA today are essentially a mafia syndicate with an overlay of political ideology.
Posted by lex 2005-02-03 11:14:41 PM||   2005-02-03 11:14:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Right on, Lex. The terrorists are mainly criminal gangs. I have been in the North when bombs went off and blew up innocent kids. Hey, the Barleycorn had fun and clever songs in the 80s and 90s, but they are not fun anymore as the so called IRA is just a bunch of murdering criminals. It is easy to build a bomb or hijack a car in Armagh and blow up something. It takes a special character to recognize one's own resources and limitations, and to compromise to make a decent start. Read Michael Collin's biography. He fought the Brits and Black and Tans, then he exhaustively negotiated with the British govt for 6 months to get the beginnings of independence. Then some breakaway IRA nutcase murdered him in Cork. Great loss to Ireland.
Posted by Alaska Paul  2005-02-03 11:29:01 PM||   2005-02-03 11:29:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Indeed. "We who are but weasels, fighting in a hole..."

BTW, add the Chechen "rebels" to the list. I think the process of criminalization simply happens faster and more thoroughly these days due to the impact of globalization. The greater the funds flows from the outside-- be it from coca barons or Saudi princes or east european mafiya elements-- the easier it is for thugs and thievery to snuff out any pretense of political dedication, asceticism or commitment.
Posted by lex 2005-02-03 11:36:30 PM||   2005-02-03 11:36:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 You can't plant thousands of bombs as the IRA did and not kill people. I have personally seen at least a dozen IRA bombs explode and I never felt particularly threatened by them.

You are a lying, terrorist-apologist sack of shit, Phil_b.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-02-04 3:18:12 AM||   2005-02-04 3:18:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 
If I was a catholic in N.I. I'd never give up my guns, ever.
And as an Arab in "Palestine"...
Posted by someone 2005-02-04 3:52:27 AM||   2005-02-04 3:52:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 And as an Arab in "Palestine"...

Nice try, - I'll play.

Same goes for the arabs or whoever. I'm consistent across the board w/the right to bear arms for any people. I could personally give a fuck if some paleo owns a rifle, shotgun, or handgun for personal protection or hunting rabbits etc. If some paleo or catholic in N.I. want to own a gun in their home WTF should anyone care? If they are criminals or terrorists then they will end up in jail or dead, same as in the States. You don't remove the ability to own a firearm just because some people in that particular region are assholes. That's LLL thinking someone.
Posted by Jarhead 2005-02-04 8:15:07 AM||   2005-02-04 8:15:07 AM|| Front Page Top

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