Article

2005-02-01 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Fred 2005-02-01 00:00:00|| || Front Page|| [11139 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 We really do have to get our people out of Incirlik so that we have the absolute freedom of action required to kick the shit out of any Turks that think that they can cross into a country under the protection of the United States of America. These people declared themselves to be our enemies when they wouldn't allow the 4th ID to transit their country. What makes them think that the Stryker Brigade will let them cross the border?

Posted by RWV 2005-02-01 12:36:43 AM|| 2005-02-01 12:36:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Right. And if you lift a little finger we'll vaporize it, pal. Can't be part of Europe if you continue to engage in hilarious Third World truculence. Good little French toadies, there now. I've always like the Turks so I'll choose just to be entertained by this.

Posted by Verlaine in Iraq 2005-02-01 12:46:47 AM|| 2005-02-01 12:46:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Verlaine in Iraq? No kidding, dude...

Posted by Seafarious 2005-02-01 12:48:46 AM|| 2005-02-01 12:48:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Turkey warned yesterday that it could take action if Kurdish attempts to take control of Kirkuk in northern Iraq plunges the oil-rich city into ethnic turmoil..

So Turkey's lookin' to make another mistake, eh? Tsk tsk, some people never learn.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-02-01 1:26:08 AM|| 2005-02-01 1:26:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I have a lengthy theory (under construction, lol) about Muslim behavior patterns. Turkey has submerged itself in the swamp of Islamic contradictions and stupidity, so it applies. In the interest of brevity, lol, I'll summarize it:

Islam has a social construct, inculcated from birth and strongly reinforced, which I call "pain => blame" which it has effectively substituted for the customary rational "cause => effect" mental learning process. The main feature of this substitution is that learning is blocked since the behavior modification of "cause => effect" is lost. Even the average dog employs the "cause => effect" process to learn acceptable behaviors and avoid negative feedback: digging in the trash = a few sharp newspaper shots across the nose. When the association is developed, behavior is modified to eliminate the negative, the pain of being punished. Turkey's Islamic Govt obviously exhibits this unproductive regressive behavior.

I'll add another observation regards Turkey. The only entity that has directly worked against Turk interests is France. They blocked Turkey's NATO request for Patriot missiles, pre-Iraq War, and have suckered them with EU membership promises ever since, apparently demanding, and getting, repeated and concerted anti-US actions in exchange for "support" - which never materializes. Again, there is a clear learning deficit apparent in this self-defeating behavior.

Turkey has repeatedly chosen to be an adversary. It has consistently acted against US interests at every turn since the Muslims took over the Turkish Govt. The Turkish military, empowered by their constitution to prevent Muslim stupidity from harming the country or hijacking their political system, is MIA - and probably DOA. Effectively, Turkey is, at the least, an adversary - at worst, an avowed enemy.

I still ascribe many US deaths in Iraq to them for preventing a two-front war, the classic hammer and anvil, and delaying the 4ID's entrance to the theater in a timely fashion... which made the "island hopping" approach necessary, leaving our supply flanks vulnerable, and left the Sunni Triangle, the source of most post-combat insurgency, utterly "unpacified".

So. Who gives a flying fuck what Turkey thinks, fears, or wants? Not me. Fuck 'em. Twice.

Posted by .com 2005-02-01 1:57:00 AM|| 2005-02-01 1:57:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Turks lost their chance to "influence" things when they refused to let US forces operate out of and pass thru Turkish territory.

Too bad Turkey, in the immortal words of WIlly Wonka in the movies:

You LOSE! Good DAY Sir!

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-01 3:47:20 AM|| 2005-02-01 3:47:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Seafarious, I probably shouldn't say much ("I can say no more!"), but I'm in the Palace complex, working for the US taxpayer. Soon I'll remedy my past failings and hit the tipjar here, something long overdue.

.com, I'm enjoying your rants -- very well done. I have a perverse take on the whole Turkey/4ID thing (I think it was a good way to save several billion $ and had little if any actual effect on the course of events, as the insurgent strategy was pre-cooked and could only have been disrupted by much more aggressive tactics by our forces AFTER the major combat phase), but I love how you're putting major islamic countries on the couch and analyzing their behavior.

I do hope the Kurds manage the Kirkuk thing smoothly, much more for Iraq's sake than Turkey's.

Posted by Verlaine in Iraq 2005-02-01 4:55:38 AM|| 2005-02-01 4:55:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 We don't have to kick the shit out of anybody. First, all we have to do is make a phone call to Athens and very publicly ask how they're doing and whether or not there's any combat aircraft or warships they need. With respect to Aris, that's no reflection on Greece, just an acknowledgement of how politics work. Secondly - and with respect to .com - the Turkish military has, as a rule, only acted when there is pretty much no other alternative, and I'm not sure that point has been reached just yet.
On the other hand, if the Turkish military has indeed drunk the kool-aid, that is an exceptionally bad thing for the region. Unlike Iraq and Iran, the Turks have a very long and professional military history along with a highly trained, professional and well equipped service , and they could be a far greater threat than those two countries ever were.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-02-01 7:18:39 AM|| 2005-02-01 7:18:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Yeap,RWV.Shut down Incerlik and build a big ass base in Kurdistan.

Posted by Raptor 2005-02-01 8:27:56 AM|| 2005-02-01 8:27:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 .com, could you expand a little on "pain=>blame"?

Posted by HV 2005-02-01 8:38:32 AM|| 2005-02-01 8:38:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Haha. Mike makes me laugh. I remember hearing the same things about Saddams military pre-Gulf War I. The mighty Turkish war machine! Excuse me as I chuckle. You've obviously never been to turkey. I have, and I've met members of their mighty war machine. Like all muslim militaries, they are great at looking nice in their uniforms and not much else. Jackass.

Posted by AllahHateMe 2005-02-01 9:02:43 AM|| 2005-02-01 9:02:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul renewed concerns that more Kurds than those expelled under Saddam Husseinâs rule had settled in Kirkuk

see Pals - refugees - number. See Pals,who fled in 1948, number. Compare.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-02-01 9:39:56 AM|| 2005-02-01 9:39:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 HV, I think it's pretty straight forward: In many cultures, problems are viewed as tasks warranting solutions, preferably solutions addressing the root causes of the problems so that the tasks will not have to be repeated.

Hence Judeo-Christian-ethic (ethic, not ethnic) Americans took out the Taliban and Saddam and are looking for Osama and are establishing democracy in the Middle East.

The self-oppressed Middle Eastern cultures are Islamic ("Islam" meaning "submission"). They don't DO, they STEW. To them a problem (pain) is typically addressed by complaining, and they try to save face by always blaming others. "It's The Joooos" or any other excuse that is handy.

When they try to "DO", they do it in the Islamic context of submission -- hence beheadings, terrorism, and generally trying to make even their own people submissive. It worked for Mohammed. That can work on small populations (villages, tribes, etc.), but it doesn't work well on the grand scale (as the Taliban, Saddam, and Osama are learning).

The mullahs in Iran are trying to make submission work on a grand scale. They project that all the world's problems are due to The Joooos and The Great Satan. And having seen the Taliban and Saddam go down, they have learned that extending submission globally will require global-scale weapons. But the free people they despise have bigger weapons and are not going to be taken down.

Ultimately the mullahs will have to be crushed and part of the Islamic world that survives and cares will always see that as an insult to Islam and BLAME all their woes on The Joooos and The Great Satan. And the cycle will repeat.

Sadly, I expect that the cycle will repeat endlessly until either the more-secular "Islam is Peace" Muslims overcome the "Islam is submission" Muslims or the rest of the world treats Muslims the way it treated Nazis. Given the Muslim proclivity for submission and pain/blame, I expect that eventually the mosque will share the same fate as the swastica arm band.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-01 9:59:48 AM|| 2005-02-01 9:59:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Perhaps
1. shame culture=>externalization=>blame
2. guilt culture=>internalized=>brisk shrink biz

#1 is usual mode operandi in islamic cultures
#2 is prevalent in judeo-christian context

Nothing is black'n'white, shades of grey apply.

Fer'nstance, blame externalization is more employed by females within judeo-christian cultural context. (I've been married several times, don't tell me this is a gender stereotyping! LOL)

There is a twist, jewish mothers can successfully externalize guilt, passing it on the offspring.

Question is what is healthier, shame or guilt based culture?

The shame culture has a serious problem in the sense that the blamee has no haven if is the member of the society (external blamees can calmly state FOAD, provided that the blamer is not in the same environ). Morality is not internalized, is is defined by the society (tribe, religion). Conscience does develop only in rudimentary, child-like form. Whatever is not object of shame, is allowed.

The guilt culture is faring a bit better. Bare the cases when guilt is pressurized to a degree that the cooker explodes ouward, the individual is able to cope, sometimes with help of the shrink industry. The conscience is internalized and better developed--moral compas or gyroscope is present in various, often substantial degrees. Paradoxically, the individual from the guilt culture is able to develop better social behavioral patterns, because there is a room for experimental corrective interaction. The culture adheres to more adult type of values, like responsibility for one's actions and self-respect.

As I said there are shades in between, so rarely there is a pure representative of either culture.

There is a type that is somewhere in the middle.
This type is definitely not a golden compromise. Rather, this state it would be present in a confused individual, that would behave erraticaly, having no cultural anchor and prone to moral relativism, cognitive dissonance with utter suspension of logic, immature, hedonistic yet with preference for authoritative social structures as a replacement for missing internalized moral compass. Values self-esteem (reflective assessment based on external interaction), rather than self-respect which is terra incognita. Eternal pubescent.

Is it possible that a representative of the shame culture can become a well adjusted member of the guilt culture? I know people that were able to transverse, with a relatively short period of the moonbatty middle or skipping it at all. A Pre-requisite is that there has been some exposure to the other culture, and/or that the individual's intelligence is above average and a tendency towards individualism is present, else there is little chance that the individual would escape the constrictive cage of the shame based cultural structure. Typical example may be Walid Shoebat or
Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Posted by Sobieky 2005-02-01 10:00:38 AM|| 2005-02-01 10:00:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 As my old man used to observe:
"A lesson in manners punctuated with a fist in the nose tends to stick with you."

Don't push your luck, Turkey.

Posted by mojo 2005-02-01 1:24:33 PM|| 2005-02-01 1:24:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Big ups to Verlaine. Rantburg being read in Iraq...woohoo!

Posted by Seafarious 2005-02-01 1:37:10 PM|| 2005-02-01 1:37:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 AHM:

My father's unit was in line next to the Turks in Korea for a while. He's always spoken highly of them--I guess they were quite proficient at raiding the NorK lines at night, using only knives because it's more fun that way.

Posted by Mike 2005-02-01 1:53:56 PM|| 2005-02-01 1:53:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Who says were that stupid to invade Iraq, we'll teach the insurgents how to fry Johnnies, worked with Chechnya didn't it, prepare for Vietnam2.

Posted by Murat 2005-02-01 2:31:06 PM|| 2005-02-01 2:31:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Blah, blah, blah.

Which Murat are you? Are you the one that STILL owes me the evidence that I'm a Kurd?

Or are you one of his cowardly alter-egos?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-02-01 2:34:51 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-02-01 2:34:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Murat, I think we're up to Vietnam 4 by now. (Kosovo was #2, Afghanistan was #3). There may have been some others.....I've lost track.
At least Aris is familiar with basic punctuation, and he uses a different alphabet (most of the time)...
Try again with a different rant. I give this one a 2 (minuses - bringing up Vietnam, who the hell is "Johnny" unless you mean "Johnny Reb"...wrong war yet again). Yawn.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-01 2:44:52 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-02-01 2:44:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 No way! Murat?!?!?! Well, I'm ready for Veet Naam 2; this time we'll have unrestricted bombing and unrestricted ground action and we'll win. How does that grab ya?

Posted by Mark E. 2005-02-01 2:47:57 PM|| 2005-02-01 2:47:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Johnny Kerrey.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-01 2:49:46 PM|| 2005-02-01 2:49:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 "Johnny" is the short name for the average hillbilly Joe American. The poor Arabs don't know how to fight and the few who do fight, fight like women.

With a little bit warrior tactics they could bring the daily American casualties easily from 2 to 200. Oh wait, they are in deer need of AA missiles, this could become fun.

Posted by Murat 2005-02-01 2:57:02 PM|| 2005-02-01 2:57:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Not our original Murat, I'd wager.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-01 2:59:59 PM|| 2005-02-01 2:59:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 the deer missles? Do they have deer there?

Posted by 2b 2005-02-01 3:00:54 PM|| 2005-02-01 3:00:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Yeah, I don't think the original Murat would think Johnny is short for "average hillbilly Joe American".
Though I would pay big bucks to see some hillbilly kick this guy's ass....or more likely, his sister kick his ass.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-01 3:02:48 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-02-01 3:02:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 "...worked with Chechnya didn't it..."
The Soviets failed in Afghanistan -- we didn't.
Wanna test your luck, punk?

Posted by Tom 2005-02-01 3:05:53 PM|| 2005-02-01 3:05:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 The real Murat had a much better command of the english language. Plus, I don't think he was using a IP provider in the Netherlands. Assen, to be precise.

Posted by Steve 2005-02-01 3:13:59 PM|| 2005-02-01 3:13:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Thank you, Steve.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-01 3:17:55 PM|| 2005-02-01 3:17:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Oh dear, I fear that Turkey's efforts to endear their citizens to fund their dearly inadequate military would be far too dear for them to endure, with dire consequences for their attempts to join the EU, poor dears. Pehaps they would be far better off to contact John Deere, to improve their exports, rather than arming their deer with missles.

Posted by 2b 2005-02-01 3:18:34 PM|| 2005-02-01 3:18:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 You're welcome, Tom.

Posted by Steve 2005-02-01 3:38:20 PM|| 2005-02-01 3:38:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Verlaine - Glad to hear you made it and, apparently, doing okay. Stay safe, bro, and thanks for the encouragement, lol!

HV - instead of a direct answer, how about this...

And who fucking cares what "murat" - no matter who's playing the role today, has to say. He / They don't get it, so fuck 'em.

**********

I'm just winging it, here, and whacking it out. Be gentle with me, heh heh.

I saw pretty clearly that there was a fundamental difference between what I knew of Western societies and what I was experiencing in Saudi Arabia in 1992. I played with how it could be best described and also tried to add in the generic Asian social model and the Marxist BS. I came up with only Guilt vs Blame vs Face vs Collective as descriptors - no deep underlying theory. I spent my time working and sleeping, mainly, with little time for recording philosophical musings. So that's where it sat for a decade.

Then I ran across this Sharkansky Blog entry via LGF which was a quick translation of an article in Die Zeit - and the author Mordechay Lewy had put it into words better than I had managed in my mere musings. At the time it was published, I was back in Saudi again, though I was preparing to end my second tour (3 yrs that time) and get out permanently.

The article, assuming the translation is clean, does a damned good job of explaining why the Guilt society progresses, changes, improves the behaviors of its individuals... and why the Blame society is stagnant, cast in amber - a Darwinian Box Canyon. If I took the time I could pick out the bits and pieces with which I disagree - but they're minor and actually more the quibbles of an atheist who knows the discussion could easily be couched sans the religious references - it's simple Darwinism in the end: successful strategies survive because they evolve and progress, failed strategies die out - for a myriad collection of reasons.

It used to be a big planet. It took a long time for the technologies to mature which allow for true global conflict to be decisively ended. And, at long last, a champion with the wherewithal to back up its assertions has come along. America. It is the first nation to stand for the progressive liberal society sans the imperialism. It is the current Darwinistic result of Western philosophy. It's not perfect, of course, but it succeeds for precisely those reasons that it is hated by the other Western / modern societies. It allows for diversity of thought, opinion, religion, ideology, and heavily promotes individualism. It evolves - rapidly. Its prime directive is to beg, borrow, steal or, better yet, invent the best good ideas available and meld them into a successful ongoing changing model. It is aggressive in the idea market. It has evolved in tandem with the lethality of weapons - a unique survival strategy. Once, it was isolated and could afford to be isolationist at heart. Technology, much of its own invention, has changed that - so it has evolved its success / survival strategies accordingly. There are fools who fail to grasp the fact that we must synch policy and action with technology. They would love to go back and hug isolationist trees or pretend that we should all kick back and enjoy espressos on the Left Bank and all will be well. They're morons. When they are in control of our government, we are vulnerable and blind. Those who see the connection also see the problem looming: the planet has become dramatically "smaller" due to the technology and there will be no more "glancing blows" when the competing societal models clash. One will begin to die and the other will continue to grow.

I have been rather ostracized for it (quick summary: "fry 'em up"), but I believe that the Islamic flavor of the Blame model, which has been sustained by its uber-aggressive accompanying religio-socio-political ideology, has run its course (soon to die, per Darwinian Laws) by running headlong into the brick wall of the American flavor of the Guilt model: a hardcore scientifically and technologically based Jacksonian / Jeffersonian / Wilsonian version of the Guilt model. It's Them or Us. I pick Us.

Next up, the Collective model. More Science HS vs Golden Dragon HS (the last surviving Collective model of significance).

Well, that's the "quick" and dirty view from Sin City. It took me almost exactly an hour to type this out. I know I'll regret doing it as I'll be sniped for a statement here or there without the whole picture being kept in frame and the fact that it was a quickie. But hell, it's RB. Let the games begin.

Posted by .com 2005-02-01 3:59:03 PM|| 2005-02-01 3:59:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 ..prepare for Vietnam2.

Sorry Bizarro Murat, it wouldn't be a Vietnam 2. The weaponry is more lethal, more accurate. WAY more accurate. Finding out firsthand might not be such a good idea...

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-02-01 4:39:17 PM|| 2005-02-01 4:39:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 interesting...

Posted by 2b 2005-02-01 4:41:29 PM|| 2005-02-01 4:41:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 .com, a note on the (social) darwinian model. *ALL* behaviours that persist have selective value. That is, the behaviour somehow aids the actor in surviving or doesn't place them at a disadvantage. Most social behaviour operate on a social (societal) basis. So how does the abdication of personal responsibility, blame somebody else as found in Islam (and other religions) work. Essentially by shifting responsibility to the Other (Zionists, Crusaders, whatever.). Blame, No responsibility works as a survival strategy as long as enough participate in the someone else is responsible model (it's a level playing field). As soon as enough defect to a personal responsibility strategy, no responsibility no longer works (similar to the prisoners dilemma). Hence the need for all to participate in the blame no-responsibility religious uniformity.

So while I might quibble with the details of your argument, overall I agree with you. Islam will crash and burn when faced with Western individual responsibility becuase it achieves better results faster.

This also neatly explains the affinity between (Islam and Socialism, and Catholicism for that matter).

Regards

Posted by phil_b 2005-02-01 7:50:46 PM|| 2005-02-01 7:50:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Turkish participation in the Korean War was a PR move. They sucked, period, over run by half their numbers of Chinee with bugles and whiz bangs. The Pentagon PR machine made a big deal of their pursuit of the NORKS... big deal. They sucked and caved, never, every have a Turkish unit on your flank.

Posted by Shipman 2005-02-01 7:56:02 PM|| 2005-02-01 7:56:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 It was a good read, .com. Where would Middle Eastern Islam be today had it not been for the western world and oil? Probably extinct or just a rural oddity -- a 7th century backwater. These countries have gotten the 20th century and 21st century western goods and the oil wealth to buy them by sheer luck. They pretty much either buy or steal technology. And they produce very little of value other than the oil that is actually produced for them in many cases. If you exclude oil, where do these countries fall in a worldwide GDP ranking? You know. Islam needs some protestants and a reformation or it is going to sink itself by sheer ignorance and failure to adapt.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-01 8:09:03 PM|| 2005-02-01 8:09:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 phil_b - Just caught your comments - thanks. I didn't mean to preclude responses, lol, I just assumed most RBers would mumble "fuck you" and pick it apart, lol!

Regards the Other, you've touched upon a main tenet of my broader theory. I believe that mature individuals operate within reality and within the possibilities for future realities. Immature individuals live in something of a bubble. Within it, they have damped the unacceptable aspects of reality, added the fantasy content they need to go on each day, and - most of all - must have a bogeyman, an Other, upon which to either blame the perceived shortcomings in their lives or distract them from the pain of the shortcomings. Obviously these two defense mechanisms commingle and, at times, become fully merged.

We see this clearly in Crown Prince Abdullah's recent remarks blaming Jooos and such. For the Blame societies, the Other is essential, as you point out.

To merge our ideas, you mentioned the Socialists' similarity in this regard. I couldn't agree more. I fully and completely believe that this explains the Bush Derangement Syndrome common across the various "isms".

Just as Palestine is the Other for Islam - mainly promoted by Arab "states" as the distraction to keep their own people emotionally occupied - BDS has become the memed Other for the world's simple-minded fools. Islamic societies are immature - to a man. The Moonbats are our perpetual children, our dependents who wish for things that would consume and destroy them, were it not for the mature individuals.

I hope I've been clear enough to follow - your comments pushed the button, lol! Again, Thx for the feedback!

Posted by .com 2005-02-01 8:11:45 PM|| 2005-02-01 8:11:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Tom - You won't be surprised when I tell you that I asked a Saudi when I first went over in '92 about the oil. I was initially asking why they tolerated a "King" - who "owned" everything, then doled out dribbles to his favorites. Wasn't the oil either the property of all Arabs within SA or the property of the individuals who owned the land?

Well he explained that tribes & clans actually "own" the land and it's doled out by the leaders - so to me it was the same question multiplied by the tribes and clans, lol!

Then he hit me with what was a real eye-opener in '92: The oil wealth was their right. It was Allah's gift to them for their faithfulness and deprivation of the centuries as Bedouin. He said it precisely in the manner that a friend had once told me that he deserved to win the lottery. My friend was kidding. This guy was serious.

So there you have it, eh? Lol! They deserve the oil and the power it gives them. It's Allah's payback for centuries of wandering around the deserts.

Posted by .com 2005-02-01 8:18:51 PM|| 2005-02-01 8:18:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 And how will they rationalize it when we take it and send them back into the deserts?

GDP per capita (including oil):
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/gdp_country_desc.php

Posted by Tom 2005-02-01 8:23:17 PM|| 2005-02-01 8:23:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Lol - long live the Republic of Eastern Arabia, heh.

Posted by .com 2005-02-01 8:30:01 PM|| 2005-02-01 8:30:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Eastern Arabia? Nah, too close to Israel. But Saudi Republic of the Central Sahara works for me.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-01 8:56:47 PM|| 2005-02-01 8:56:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 .com's geopolitical solution is Eastern Arabia = Wahhabi-free zone, they get the "empty quarter" . Works for me

Posted by Frank G 2005-02-01 9:07:39 PM|| 2005-02-01 9:07:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Turks lost their chance to "influence" things when they refused to let US forces operate out of and pass thru Turkish territory.

Too bad Turkey, in the immortal words of WIlly Wonka in the movies:

You LOSE! Good DAY Sir!

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-01 3:47:20 AM|| 2005-02-01 3:47:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-01 3:47:20 AM|| 2005-02-01 3:47:20 AM|| Front Page Top

23:54 Mike Sylwester
23:46 Sobiesky
23:44 CrazyFool
23:44 #5
23:42 Mike Sylwester
23:32 Atomic Conspiracy
23:21 CrazyFool
23:17 3dc
23:10 Mike Sylwester
23:03 John Q. Citizen
23:02 2b
23:00 John Q. Citizen
22:54 Grunter
22:49 Alaska Paul
22:48 BH
22:44 Angie Schultz
22:29 Penguin
22:26 mhw
22:24 mhw
22:23 trailing wife
22:23 GK
22:21 Mike Sylwester
22:18 Cobra Commander
22:00 Frank G