Article

2005-01-17 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve White 2005-01-17 1:15:54 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I agree with the grunts.What was the Duty Officer or NCOIC doing when all this was takeing place?Pretty typical EM get hammered Officers get shielded.

Posted by raptor 2005-01-17 8:10:10 AM|| 2005-01-17 8:10:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Hang them first, then identify the guilty party Raptor?
News alert, back in the pile that was left over from Vietnam the American Army figured out that one of its problems was that it gutted the authority of the NCO. LTs and CPTs were doing NCO jobs and the quality of our performance dropped like a rock. In the rebuilding of the Army in the 80s, the NCO Corps in the Regular Army was revitalized. Professional development training was initiated, with schools from Primary Leadership through the Sergeants Major Academy. [The reserve and NG elements do not lend themselves to as effective application of this process.] Civilian educational requirements were raised to the extent that most senior NCOs have as much college time as 2LTs, and vastly more practical experience. A lot of responsibility and authority was placed back into the NCO ranks. The flexibility, adaptability, and effectiveness of our small units is practically dependent upon these modern NCOs. The whiny arguement that we need some heads of commissioned officers is a movement back to the days of micromanagement and degredation of the NCOs authority. Leaders will act to protect their ass. There are two sides to the coin. This event was the dark side, thankfully rare. Unfortunately, if we are to trust the process of putting power and authority into the hands of our NCOs then we must accept these types of incidents will happen. There is not perfect.
As for the chain of command, just like any disaster in a political environment where the pols are not directly responsible for the problem but who's subordinates screw up, they pay by having their careers shortened. The police chief who's men abuse arrestees or inmates, the supervisor with dirty business relations and funny accounting, the appointment of one's sexual plaything into an office as political/personal favor. Its began in the Army with the relief for cause of several of the officers about a year ago. They have no further military career. However, the military law is similar to civilian law. The rules of evidence are the same. You have to have sufficient proof to convict. That is not likely to be met regardless of your personal desire to 'hang them all'. So the Army does what it can, by terminating their careers.

Posted by Don 2005-01-17 10:35:06 AM|| 2005-01-17 10:35:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Go Don!

Posted by Shipman 2005-01-17 10:46:35 AM|| 2005-01-17 10:46:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Leaders will act to protect their ass.

But should never let others take the fall for them. That would be the act of a coward.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-17 10:59:56 AM|| 2005-01-17 10:59:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 In reference to the comment about devolving management to the NCO ranks from the officers. Where was the Sergent First Class, the Master Sergent, the Officer of the Day. I don't care how far you push responsibility downward, you don't put a SP/4 in charge of a prison cell block. There should have been walkarounds by several higher ranking personnel every shift. Someones, plural, was sleeping on duty. You can take that from a long ago Vietnam era NCO.

Posted by Old Fogey 2005-01-17 12:27:20 PM|| 2005-01-17 12:27:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Fogey -- that's why (as far as I know) every officer between the abusers and the Brigadier General has seen the end of their careers. The original Taguba report made it clear that the officers failed to do their duty.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-17 12:55:43 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-17 12:55:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 ...My biggest complaint is that the brigade commander, BGen Karpinski, is going to walk away after one of the most outrageous displays of dereliction of duty I've evr seen, then had the nerve to literally dare the Army to come get her.
I have said this before and I'll say it again - put just ONE general in Leavenworth and it will be amazing how quickly this sort of thing will come to a complete stop...

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-01-17 2:14:00 PM|| 2005-01-17 2:14:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I have said this before and I'll say it again - put just ONE general in Leavenworth and it will be amazing how quickly this sort of thing will come to a complete stop.

Do you have any particular general in mind, or do you just want to grab any convenient one off the street?

Posted by Pappy 2005-01-17 3:05:10 PM|| 2005-01-17 3:05:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 It's certainly true that General Karpinski was derelict in her duty but seldom does that in itself warrant prison time. Maybe it should. Karpinski is finished in the Army. I personally would like to see her court marshalled but it just isn't going to happen. I'm not saying there aren't women capable of doing the job but you can put this one officer's failure at the feet of the feminist crowd to promote women regardless of their qualifications. When women were first introduced in to my unit the first ones were not able to do the same tasks as the rest of us. We had to pick up her slack and carry the extra load. Not tha big a deal in peacetime but if we had found ourselves in a combat situation our efficiency would have been seriously degraded. The first ones to be left behind in a serious situation are the ones who can't carry their own weight. It sounds cruel but combat isn't a game.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2005-01-17 3:48:43 PM|| 2005-01-17 3:48:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 DB-As a feminist, I am behind you. Ability and fitness for the role should be paramount.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-17 3:59:56 PM|| 2005-01-17 3:59:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 DB, Jules, me three. Set the standards high, and cut all those, male and female, who don't make it. If serving is that important to them, there are other ways.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-17 10:49:57 PM|| 2005-01-17 10:49:57 PM|| Front Page Top