Article

2005-01-05 Europe

Ukraine's Opposition Leader Vows to Be PM

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Posted by Fred 2005-01-05 00:00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Is this a Ukrainian dish?

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-05 12:51:10 AM|| 2005-01-05 12:51:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 May have a bite of an after taste.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-05 12:53:03 AM|| 2005-01-05 12:53:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Great! It sounds like the deal is done and it also sounds like she deserves her shot. I hope she gets it and continues to be a firebrand of freedom! Rock on, Sis!

Posted by .com 2005-01-05 12:59:33 AM|| 2005-01-05 12:59:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Easy on the eyes she is. Evidently she's got charisma and smarts, too. Here's an article on her from BBC - perhaps the only "baggage" she's got(from the perspective of the Bolsheviks @ the BBC) is that she's rich and successful, having made a ton of $ on gas trading.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4070663.stm
Two more pics of her in the article.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 1:08:12 AM|| 2005-01-05 1:08:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Sorry, folks, but this one's a fake democrat. She stole many millions, perhaps billions, in her previous life as a bandit executing the takeover and fleecing of Ukraine's energy industry in concert with the kleptocrat and felon (charged in California for, I believe, money-laundering) PM Lazarenko. Similar scheme as that applied by Chubais and other crooks in Russia with that country's energy monopoly, UES, but on a much grander scale. At one point Yulia controlled nearly 20% of Ukraine's entire GDP. This isn't liberal capitalism; it's Brazilian-, or more likely Nigerian-style kleptocracy.

This little bandit symbolizes everything wrong with Ukraine and Russia. She's part of the problem and should never have been brought on board with Yushchenko.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 1:57:29 AM|| 2005-01-05 1:57:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I don't mean to piss on Yushchenko's parade but the facts are the facts. We've been screwed before by kleptocratic clowns like Yeltsin, Chubais et al masquerading as liberal capitalist "reformers", and what follows the misrule of these jokers is Putinism.

Yulia is bad news. Maybe not (yet) bad enough to completely overshadow the very good news of Yushchenko's triumph, but a sign that Ukraine has a long, long way to go before it can be considered even a normal, screwed-up east european country. Backsliding is much more likely.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 2:01:28 AM|| 2005-01-05 2:01:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 So lex, if I follow you, you're saying use a police warrant on her? I think I know what Capt A would use...

Posted by .com 2005-01-05 2:33:51 AM|| 2005-01-05 2:33:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Keep it in yer trousers, fellas. When it comes to slender slavic beauty, this little whore couldn't hold a candle to what you can see any day of the week on any Moscow Metro line. And moral corruption ages you, rapidly. She'll look like Kirstie Alley within a few years.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 2:42:53 AM|| 2005-01-05 2:42:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 I kinda miss the good ol' days when a wall surrounded them and Utopia was broke.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-05 8:51:44 AM|| 2005-01-05 8:51:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Keep it in yer trousers, fellas. When it comes to slender slavic beauty, this little whore couldn't hold a candle to what you can see any day of the week on any Moscow Metro line. And moral corruption ages you, rapidly. She'll look like Kirstie Alley within a few years.

All the more reason to drool over it now, while it still looks doable.

Posted by badanov 2005-01-05 8:57:05 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif] 2005-01-05 8:57:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I kinda miss the good ol' days when a wall surrounded them and Utopia was broke.

Chocolate and nylons and Marlboros went a long way.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 8:59:28 AM|| 2005-01-05 8:59:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 She'll look like Kirstie Alley within a few years. - Well that certainly killed that fantasy...

Seriously all Ukrane needs is more corruption in government. Its very hard to remove corruption onces it takes root.

Posted by CrazyFool 2005-01-05 9:08:50 AM|| 2005-01-05 9:08:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 lex> "little whore"

Ugh. Why don't you let her *first* reveal herself to be a fake reformer *before* you use such vulgarity on her?

Neither Yushchenko nor Tymoshenko are paragons of perfection. Nor do they need to be in order to act as reformers. I'm sure her hands aren't clean: But compared to the beheading murderer Kuchma and his fellow gang of poisoners she looks like a saint. Interesting info about the money you claim she stole -- any murders in her past though?

Right now what I've heard of Tymoshenko I tend to like. For starters, unlike the moderate and often compromising Yushchenko, she's been one of the few voices that opposed the recent despicable "package" that ended up propping up the Kuchma regime by playing Calvinball just before the rerun election. Tymoshenko also seems to be one of the most anti-Russian members of the opposition, which is all to the good when Russian imperialism still remains the greatest threat for Ukrainian democracy and freedom.

So far Ukraine had been in the hands of the murderers. Even if Yulia is a thief (which hasn't been proven I believe), that's still a step to the right direction.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-05 9:16:18 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-05 9:16:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Crazyfool> There's corruption and then again there's corruption.

There's Western-style corruption where a politician grabs a couple million to have a cozy retirement, and there's Eastern-style "corruption" where a politician orders a reporter beheaded for criticizing him.

Ukraine had been living in the latter of the two worlds.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-05 9:19:01 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-05 9:19:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 I suppose, given the choice of being locked up with Jeffrey Dahmer or Carey Stayner, Stayner doesn't look so bad.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-05 9:26:04 AM|| 2005-01-05 9:26:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 IIUC there was an attempt to get an interpol warrant on her, which was shot down for lack of evidence.

The privatizations in Russia and the Ukraine have been pretty squirrely. Theres definitely a grey area of unethical but not illegal practices. Theres a lot of mixed opinion on Tymoshenko. I wouldnt consider her a hero, but I would give her a chance.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-05 9:35:36 AM|| 2005-01-05 9:35:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Aris, clearly you've never lived in any of the former Soviet Union nations. What the West fails to grasp about the particular nature of corruption in the FSU is that it coincides with, in fact is both cause and effect of, the complete trashing of any kind of effective government. Where individuals can control 20% (Yulka's case) or 40% (Russian oligarchic clans' case) of an entire economy, you will have governments that don't govern.

The implications are vast. First and foremost, pensions aren't paid, ie tens of millions of Russian and Ukrainian pensioners are living in third-world poverty. Get that? Third-world poverty, not the pseudo-poverty we have in which people are grossly obese and drive ten year-old rather than new cars. No, in Russia and Ukraine millions of people are subsisting on potatoes grown in private plots. A direct consequence of the corruption and criminalization of the state.

The next most important consequence of the Timoshenko-Berezovsky-Khodorkovskyite corruption is the destruction of democracy and the rule of law. Yulka's running for office is like Michael Milken running for president with Ken Lay as his VP. Aside from the implications for human rights-- who will investigate Yulka's ill-gotten gains when she's PM?-- there'a also a huge economic cost.

No rule of law means no attachment of collateral for lending, which means in effect no real banks, which means no significant economic growth outside of natural resources and the subsistence and sin industries (food, beverages, vodka--no joke). So in Russia and Ukraine you now have economies that are almost entirely dependent on commodity prices, ie, third world, Nigerian-style economies where there should be Hewlett-Packards and Nokias and Intels. Hell, they aren't even capitalist. How can you ahve capitalism when you don't have a banking system? Nice job, Yulia.

Finally, the enfeeblement of the state by corruption and no rule of law means there's the complete degradation of the nation's ability to defend its borders or defeat terror. This last is so obvious that even Russians not given to conspiracy theories suspect, with much justification, that the West's support for gangsters like Khodorkovsky-Berezovsky-Yulka is likely a deliberate attempt to weaken the former SU. Better a sick Russia than a healthy Soviet Union, as Havel said.

Trust me, when it's your country that has lost an entire generation and seen any hope of becoming a normal country disappear, you'll have a different take on this. Yulka's as much to blame as Putin or Kuchma.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 9:55:27 AM|| 2005-01-05 9:55:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 ...corruption in the FSU...coincides with, in fact is both cause and effect of, the complete trashing of any kind of effective government.

...when it's your country that has lost an entire generation and seen any hope of becoming a normal country disappear, you'll have a different take on this...

Lex, that's exactly how many friends of mine in Latvia would say it. Corruption is at the heart of the biggest problems in the former Soviet Union and its satellites. It's a huge killer, of people, progress and hope-it is not an annoyance. That millions feel either apathetic about it or powerless in its wake is worrying.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-05 10:30:22 AM|| 2005-01-05 10:30:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Westerners need to get it through their heads that the economic system that prevails in the post-communist FSU is not capitalist. Capitalism requires above all intermediary financial institutions, primarily banks, to channel savings into productive investments. Russian and Ukrainian banks are nothing more than money laundries. Hardly any private savings in those countries find their way to companies that desperately need capital for worthy investments. Instead, savings are hoarded under mattresses (by the vast population) or spirited abroad (by the lucky or cunning or corrupt few).

The economic system that actually prevails can be thought of as a grand game called arbitrage the state: grab hold of cheap, regulated, state-owned resources and flip them at market prices. It has zip in common with real capitalism.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 10:45:42 AM|| 2005-01-05 10:45:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Oh please since when should we get so uptight about supporting a politician because of a possible corruption linked past? Heck we support politicians even when we know they are corrupt. Cough, cough-who's the head honcho of corruption that our Prez says he can tell is a great man by virtue of gazing at his blue eyes and seeing his soul? Why do you think Kofi food for oil scamster Annan is still head of the UN??? It's because our gov't supports the slimester, that's why. Why are we supporting the UN at all when 2/3 of the countries are corrupt dictator led and our substantial financial support goes straight into their pockets? Puhleaze....get your pink lensed glasses off when you speak about our country's disdain of corruption. As a matter of fact, we are sending $350 Million for disaster aid at this very secod to one of the most corrupt regions in the world where terrorism co-mingles with the corruption. No worries. All the poor tsunami people will get the $ directly and use what's left over to send their kids to college. Sheesh.

And being concerned about a country's apathy...heheheheheh....are you serious? What exactly is happening in Iraq and to a certain degree in Afghanistan if it's not the indigenous population's apathy? In Afghanistan if we tried tried to uproot the country's corrupt poppy growing warlords, we'd have hell to pay, so we don't and as a result everything is copascetic. In Iraq where we needed to uproot the corruption, we do have hell to pay and how many people are going forward to report the insurgents in their midst? Nada. We get intel only if we nab these Iraqi militant/terrorists types. The Shiites are less upset about our prescence because they have the most to gain in the future, but they're not exactly busting their ankles to join the Nat'l Guard or the army to fight with us against the former ruling class. They're listening to their clerics and sitting on the fence by and large.

So my point is give the Ukraine and this lady a break before you folks get so SELECTIVELY judgemental about them. If you used the same standards for juding the other countries that you currently cheer on as "embracing democracy" there wouldn't be much to cheer about, if you know what I mean.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 11:07:24 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:07:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 I'm pro-Yushchenko and anti-Yulka. She's on the same side as Kuchma and the other kleptocrats.

She made her gazillions by working hand-in-glove with Kuchma's predecessor Lazarenko. If Yushchenko is to avoid becoming another Yeltsin-- ie a grand western "reformist" hope who ends up screwing everyone and failing miserably-- then he needs to get rid of this woman. She's poison.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 11:11:49 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:11:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Did I mention her name, joweblow? No. My my, aren't we touchy today.

Fine, you stand behind corruption. Bully for you.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-05 11:14:00 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:14:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 West's support for gangsters like Khodorkovsky-Berezovsky-Yulka

i agree with most of your analysis Lex, but must take issue with the above. Under Yeltsin there was, IIRC, a contest for influence between ideological liberalizers like Gaidar, Yavlinsky, Nemtsov versus Yeltsins "kremlin family". The West generally wanted Yeltsin to lean to the former, but ultimately our leverage was limited. In Putin propaganda this distinction is forgotten - its all = the West supported Yeltsin, ergo the West supported corruption. This is a convenient line for Putin, but I think unfair to Western policy makers and opinion. It also elides the distinction between oligarchs who made their peace with Putin, and Khodorovsky who tried to ally with the liberals - thus earning the wrath of the Putinists, who are far gentler with other oligarchs.

Your case about corruption is strong. Whether thats also a case against Tymoshenko depends on how corrupt she actually was, and whether her corruption is causal in the other rule of law issues you eloquently describe. AFAIK, that case remains disputed.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-05 11:17:55 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:17:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 The point isn't "corruption." It's the complete, utter trashing of any kind of effective governance. We've seen this again and again from kleptocratic pseudo-reformers with handsome faces and/or western college degrees and pleasing, western-friendly rhetoric: the Salinas clan in Mexico. Collor in Brazil. Yeltsin-Chubais-Nemtsov in Russia. Yulka the Democratic Hottie in Ukraine.

And the result is always the same: perpetuation of the same old kleptocracy on an epic scale. Salinas and Co trafficked in drugs, stole hundreds of millions and assassinated one of their opponents. Collor stole billions. Yeltsin et al stole many millions and transferred hundreds of billions'-- the amount is simply staggering-- worth of assets to a handful of swindlers who ensured a compliant media for yeltsin's re-election. And it was Yeltsin who bequeathed us Putin!

Mark my words, this slut is not a democrat, or a capitalist, or a liberal capitalist. Leopards don't change their spots, and there has never been a kleptocratic grand larcenist who "reformed" himself once he came to office.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 11:20:18 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:20:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 LH, we were all duped about the influence of Gaidar et al. The real power in Russia, in Yeltsin's as in Putin's era, is almost certainly the security services, mainly the FSB (ex-KGB). When the government is a complete shambles, these services will necessarily have the whip hand. They're well-organized and (not in the US but in Russia, anyway) disciplined, and above all they understand how to get things done across borders, a crucial skill in a resource-rich and industrially-poor country.

So when you have economic corruption PLUS government collapse PLUS a ruthless, cynical, pervasive security-service shadow government, you have the complete collapse of any hope of democracy or rule of law or minimally effective governance. That's why this is about far more, ultimately, than theft or corruption.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 11:25:45 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:25:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Speaking for myself only, I would say that corruption is so bad there that it is the point. The things you list, lex, are the end product of corruption. I guess my 'judgmentalism' in speaking out against massive theft-stealing of millions/billions-and assassinations of opponents means that I have a rose-colored view of the world. Whatever.

I do not hold corrupt US politicians in a separate protected class, either, BTW.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-05 11:30:19 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:30:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Did I mention her name, joweblow?
What's that supposed to mean? Maybe you're the one who is being sensitive.

My response was in response to all posters who generally poohed-poohed the possibility of the Ukraine ever rising above swamp level due to the corruption of their politicians, one of them being Tymoshenko, and due to the apathy of the masses.

Mark my words, this slut is not a democrat, or a capitalist, or a liberal capitalist
And yet you believe that the notably corrupt warlord oligarchy in Afghanistan is or that the violent, uber religious Shiite Iraqis who will form the majority voice in the next Iraqi government are? Letsee - Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani - yep that title speaks to me "democrat and liberal capitalist" all right. Hehehehe. But I'll give you this- Mr. born in Iran Grand Sistani is no slut.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 11:35:38 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:35:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 yet you believe that the notably corrupt warlord oligarchy in Afghanistan is or that the violent, uber religious Shiite Iraqis who will form the majority voice in the next Iraqi government are?

OK, perhaps I'm a bit of an ethnic chauvinist. As someone with Russian family, I find it appalling and disgusting that a great nation like Russia, with more brilliant scientists and programmers per capita than any nation apart from maybe Israel, should have sunk so far in the ranks of nations as to be compared to a fourth-world stone-age state and a third-world oil-rich fascist dictatorship.

What hurts the Russians more than anything else is the realization that their great nation is now and will be for at least another 30 years in the same political-ceconomic development category as Indonesia and Nigeria. Maybe Brazil, if they're lucky (ie if oil stays north fo $40/bbl for another few years).

Nothing for us to worry about, sure. For the Russians, it's shameful and depressing beyond imagination.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 11:41:25 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:41:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 lex, with nary a drop of Russian blood, I agree completely.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-05 11:43:11 AM|| 2005-01-05 11:43:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Corruption is at the heart of the biggest problems in the former Soviet Union and its satellites....That millions feel either apathetic about it or powerless in its wake is worrying.

Any time a nation transitions from one system to another you will always have people who get massively rich, be it through corruption or legitimate means. Corruption will be rampant. A small percentage of the population will get obscenely rich, simply because of all the wealth and opportunities lying around the country. It is almost always the case that these people will be former government types, or holders of power. The simple truth is, that a certain percentage of the population will have to get rich. That this occurs through corruption is sad, but not entirely worrisome.

What is worrisome, is if this corruption and lawlessness continues for the next 50 years or so. Once all the pigs get theirs at the trough, the hope is that all the wealth will have been distributed (amongst the rich initially) and stability sets in.

Posted by Rafael 2005-01-05 12:01:35 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:01:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Apparently, many Rantburgers think that corruption in Russia is no bigger problem than corruption in the US or anywhere else-that the scale and preponderance of it is no big deal. Or is it not a big deal because you imagine you can't be affected by it?

So, is the Rantburg final word that corruption is a necessary evil, a fact of life, something people should just roll over and accept? Would that position mean that if my company ran away with yor 401K or bilked you out of your savings, I should simply tell you to stop being so idealistic, lie down and take it like a man?

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-05 12:10:48 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:10:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 A little imaginative exercise to bring home to Americans what's gone down in Russia recently.

Imagine a) Gates, Soros, Larry Ellison, Mike Milken, Ivan Boesky, Ken Lay and Marc Rich were to join forces behind an even more distracted and venal version of Clinton and ensure his election.

b) In return for which ClintonRedux transfers assets equalling 40% of the entire US economy, public and private combined, to this gang. Yes, 40%: ie not just MSFT (which = less than 1% of our public/private GDP) but also ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, GM, GE, Boeing, Citigroup, Bank of America, AT&T, Verizon, SBC, WalMart, Cisco, Intel, Ford and McDonnell Douglas. Plus all of the TV and cable networks. No exaggeration, 40% of all public and private productive assets.

On top of which, c) hyperinflation wipes out all savings and home values for ca 40% of the population.

And d) we lose most of the southwest to Mexico and are forced by Mexico and Canada to renegotiate NAFTA on terms totally favorable to those nations. Mexico over time becomes a Chinese ally tightly integrated into the Chinese economy.

How would you feel if you were told, Don't worry, in another five years you'll catch up to Venezuela?

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 12:11:40 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:11:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Hey Aris! I never said: There's corruption and then again there's corruption. Dont put words in my mouth dammit! (I am perfectly capable of putting my own foot in my mouth just fine...).

There is western corruption where a pol would take a few million - we are used to that and somewhat expect it. There is also real corruption (which is what I was talking about) where a school kid would 'disappear' because they offended the kid of someone in power.

The first is simply greed corruption. The second is POWER corruption.

Posted by CrazyFool 2005-01-05 12:23:21 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:23:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 So, is the Rantburg final word that corruption is a necessary evil

It's to be expected in a state of initial transition and instability. If you don't expect it, then you're being naive.

Posted by Rafael 2005-01-05 12:37:05 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:37:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Uh, Crazyfool, I wasn't quoting you, nor was I pretending to be. If we agree, that's cool.

lex, when it first began, you were demeaning the role of the Orange Revolution as it being insignificant, and though you now declare yourself pro-Yushchenko, I remember you mocking the difference between two sides where one IIRC (next best thing possible to moral equivalency) was according to you just slightly more liberal than the other.

Now that this attitude has failed you seem to me to be going for the next best target, suddenly declaring yourself in favour of Yushchenko and the Orange Revolution, and opposing the least compromising, most anti-Russian and yet still widely popular in Ukraine, Tymoshenko.

I think I'd trust your comments for sincerity more, if I wasn't seeing you following so closely the Kremlin line of response to the Ukraine opposition. "Let's attack the whole Orange revolution -- oh damn that didn't work, let's atleast attack the most anti-Russian and least compromising member of the opposition Tymoshenko."

Your two-pronged tactic of:
1. Vulgarity of commentary such as "this slut", "this whore"
2. Attempts to talk endlessly in generalities about the ill-effects of corruption and lack of rule of law.

both divert this thread from the single central question - would Tymoshenko help take Ukraine forwards or backwards?

Would she be good for Ukraine or bad? I've already given my arguments for why I think she'd be good. She's anti-Russia when Russian imperialism is still the greatest danger. And all comments I've seen do indicate she's pro-freedom of the press and pro-freedom in general.

If she stole money that's not been proven, I believe. And calling her a slut and a whore isn't actually a real argument.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-05 12:41:51 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-05 12:41:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Aris, I just wanted to say I really enjoyed your smackdown of Justin Raimondo over at Post Modern Clog yesterday. Very eloquent.

Posted by Seafarious 2005-01-05 12:43:38 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:43:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Our most powerful pols can see their careers ended for misuse of the franking privilege to the tune of $20,000. There simpy is no comparison with a Salinas or a Yeltsin or a Collor.

Remember, Yeltsin shredded Russia's democracy, such as it was, by handpicking a KGB stooge to succeed him in return for not prosecuting Yeltsin and his family.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 12:45:34 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:45:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Aris, your argument boils down to: she's better than an alternative. It's a valid argument. However, a better question might be: Is a better alternative available? If she's the best available ..then she's the best available. But it doesn't necessarily imply she's a good choice.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-05 12:54:34 PM|| 2005-01-05 12:54:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Attempts to talk endlessly in generalities about the ill-effects of corruption and lack of rule of law

Aris, don't be an ass. I have cited specific after specific instance, with data points to back me up, of the very specific and debilitating effects of the extraordinary and, to westerners, nearly unfathomable degree of racketeering and theft which this criminal woman has committed. I call her a slut because here beauty, and the adulation given her by credulous foreigners like you, tend to overwhelm any attention to her crimes.

both divert this thread from the single central question - would Tymoshenko help take Ukraine forwards or backwards? Would she be good for Ukraine or bad?

What are you smoking? I stated clearly that Yulka is bad for Ukraine. Again, she's no better and no different from her partners in crime, Lazarenko and Kuchma.

She's anti-Russia when Russian imperialism is still the greatest danger

Maybe to a Greek, but not to any of the miserable subjects of the former Soviet Union. You're as ignorant of Ukraine as you are of Russia. Ukraine is Russia's Russia, a complete basket case. Again, it's kleptocrats like Yulka who brought Ukraine to its current level of degradation.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 1:04:03 PM|| 2005-01-05 1:04:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Apparently, many Rantburgers think that corruption in Russia is no bigger problem than corruption in the US or anywhere else-that the scale and preponderance of it is no big deal. Or is it not a big deal because you imagine you can't be affected by it?
I'll clarify what I said- if I'm one of the RB'ers that you've cast into this lot...

We as a country and we as RB'ers support corrupt leaders and corrupt countries 24/7, you included, lex. I used Iraq and Afghanistan and Russia and tsunami stricken Indonesia as examples where the majority of our GOP politicians and even RB'ers give political or material or military support to corrupt nations and politicians without a second thought about whether these entities are or will be wonderbar "democratic liberal capitalist" societies. We give support because the world is imperfect so we need to make Faustian deals. It may be that Ms. Ukraine Beauty is no angel but at this point she's the best hope we've got for that country along with Yuvchenko, who probably has some baggage himself if we put him under the microscope of high standards. Let's give it a chance, heck we're supporting warlords in Afghanistan and a religious Muslim holy roller in Iraq and an Spanish-blooded oligarchy in Mexico , so what's the issue with giving Ms. beauty some leeway and see what she can do in the future nix her potential for what she might have done before?

OK, perhaps I'm a bit of an ethnic chauvinist. As someone with Russian family, I find it appalling and disgusting that a great nation like Russia, with more brilliant scientists and programmers per capita than any nation apart from maybe Israel, should have sunk so far in the ranks of nations as to be compared to a fourth-world stone-age state and a third-world oil-rich fascist dictatorship
Personally Russia is a lost cause for liberal capitalism. It's been way too long that communism has been there. Even though the Russians are very smart - in fact, IQ wise when the discussion of IQ was not name called as "racist"...IQ studies have shown that Russian Jews specifically are the smartest ethnic sub group in the world- anyways back to Russia's future, inspite of the intelligence of Russian peoples, the body politic still believes in communism or at least socialism fervently and those who don't have long since emmigrated.

The Eastern bloc nations though like the Ukraine and Poland and Czech Republic-now they're just as smart and there's more hope there because they were actually victimized and fight against Russian communism and very finally subjugated by the Iron fist of Stalin and his facsimiles. Now those nations have a future and we should definitely support them. While there's still vestiges of the old communist corrupt way in those nations, so democracy or at least our idealized version of democracy will not come over night, it will come maybe even in our lifetime. And they will be a major frontier against the push of Russia's imperial ways in the future. This time I hope we don't disappoint the Eastern bloc nations as we did in the past-shiver-how ashamed we should be for that.

It's interesting to note that Poland, the Ukraine, and the Czech Republic were part of the coalition contingent in Iraq from the start. So freedom and democracy are positive values to those countries, whereas Russia sees those concepts as threats.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 1:05:41 PM|| 2005-01-05 1:05:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 What if Yushchenko withdraws Ukraine's contingent from Iraq, as seems likely?

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 1:09:13 PM|| 2005-01-05 1:09:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 No, the comment isn't directed to you or anyone in particular, lex. What you said about corruption in Russia I agree with.

It is true the world isn't perfect and will never be perfect. I do think it matters what one defends, though. Many Rantburgers have expressed their disgust with Oil For Food corruption-I would wager because it affects them, even if only by a glancing blow against their government. Are we going to start divvying up tolerance of corruption based on what nation takes a hit? Are we going to fight against corruption only when it affects our own lives?

You and I touched on Russia before on another thread. Of course a governmental bouleversement could affect corruption, as Rafael points out, but I would assert, based on my own limited experience of having lived in Latvia in 1993 and 1994, that corruption was well imbedded in that society long before Putin rose to power in Russia. Sometimes it takes petty forms, sometimes it takes massive form, but it is pervasive in the former Soviet Union. And though apathy among the people was mocked by Joeblow earlier on, I saw apathy all over the Baltics and it IS worrying. For example: nearly 100% of my students in all my classes told me that they would not report a murder if they were witness to who committed it, in part because it did not involve them, which is surely a sign of apathy/indifference, and in part because of the corruption of the police forces-it would put their own lives in danger. If nearly 100% of my post-secondary students felt that way, you basically had a country (in 1993-1994) of Genovese-like murder witnesses-unwilling to move, speak, act to prevent crime. It seems to me that such widespread apathy is a serious societal problem. But perhaps that is being naive or looking through rose-colored glasses at the world.

If you have a people who view corruption with indifference, they cannot expect a different lot than getting corruption all the time. There is an old adage-aim at where you want to go and you'll land fairly close to it. If you aim towards a country that is indifferent to or cynical about corruption, then you will likely land fairly close to that aim. The darker impulses of human nature would take over because there would be little disincentive for being corrupt. If the citizens of a country are not indifferent to getting robbed, etc., if they fight corruption, they might have a country that is a lot closer to what they dreamed of all that time they were under the Soviet boot.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-05 2:11:30 PM|| 2005-01-05 2:11:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 What if Yushchenko withdraws Ukraine's contingent from Iraq, as seems likely
What difference does that make? Other coalition partners have announced that they're winding down their committment. Hopefully the US will eventually wind down its presence in Iraq in a few years, too, unless you're one of the ones who thinks we should keep a 150,000 strong troop presence in Iraq ad infinitum.

My point is that these Eastern Bloc countries were in Iraq from the start. They showed their pro democrcay colors from the start and that's what's important.

if they fight corruption, they might have a country that is a lot closer to what they dreamed of all that time they were under the Soviet boot.
You think it's so easy to "fight corruption" ??? Even GWB is reluctant to call a spade a spade re: the most visible corrupter in the USSR - Putin. Instead he calls him a friend.

The Eastern Bloc nations have got very little help from the USA or other Western countries to get corruption out of their countries. I'm actually impressed with what they've done so far, largely on their own. We've been spoon feeding countries like Afghanistan and Iraq these past few years with a military presence and a huge infusion of $ and look what a tentative bunch these Muslims are even with all that support. When the Ukrainians stood up against the fraud of their elections and marched in support of Yuvchenko instead of the Putin puppet, they did that with great courage. Certainly there were no 150,000 strong GI's guarding their backs. If the Iraqis showed 1/100 the level of support for democracy, we'd be on Clous 99 with happiness. Sheesh, the Afghans show up at an election and we're thinking this is next best thing to the Declaration of Indepedence.

The eastern Bloc nations still have corruption, I don't argue that point with you, but I think they're a heck of a lot closer to reform than any of the Muslim dominated people, with the exception of the kurds, because these Eastern nations are taking risks are fighting themselves against the old Communist way of life. I think you're too judgemental about how far the Eastern Bloc countries have progressed considering they've done it mainly by their own muster. If we did for them what we did for the Iraqis or the Afghans, they would have beenup and running as liberal democracies in short order.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 2:42:17 PM|| 2005-01-05 2:42:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 How could anyone not be impressed with what they accomplished, joeblow? I can only admire them for what they DID. They are courageous, tough people, VERY self-sufficient people.

If we did for them what we did for the Iraqis or the Afghans, they would have beenup and running as liberal democracies in short order.

Perhaps you are right-but that does not disprove my point-if you are blase about corruption, it becomes an even larger presence in your lives-with your tacit permission.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-05 2:52:03 PM|| 2005-01-05 2:52:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 JB: When the Ukrainians stood up against the fraud of their elections and marched in support of Yuvchenko instead of the Putin puppet, they did that with great courage. Certainly there were no 150,000 strong GI's guarding their backs. If the Iraqis showed 1/100 the level of support for democracy, we'd be on Clous 99 with happiness. Sheesh, the Afghans show up at an election and we're thinking this is next best thing to the Declaration of Indepedence.

I can't agree with this statement. If the Ukrainians had a few hundred people disappear via political murder every month for decades and still demonstrated in that square, I would say they were brave. Remember, it was only after the security services stopped being repressive that Ukrainians started carrying out semi-free elections almost a decade ago. Afghans and Iraqis have been under one repressive regime or another for decades, and these were governments that weren't afraid to shed the blood of its internal opponents en masse (with rape and torture as significant components of their instruments of state control). Uncle Sam has cut off the head of the snake, but various pieces of it are still capable of independent action. Afghans and Iraqis are rising to the challenge despite being systematically slaughtered like livestock. And for that, I salute them. If Ukrainians were willing to take this kind of punishment, they would have kicked the Russians out long ago. (Note that the Afghans fought the Russians for close to a decade before persuading the Russians to leave. How long did the Ukrainian resistance to Soviet rule last?)

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-05 3:13:38 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-05 3:13:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 JB: When the Ukrainians stood up against the fraud of their elections and marched in support of Yuvchenko instead of the Putin puppet, they did that with great courage. Certainly there were no 150,000 strong GI's guarding their backs.

What JB has missed here is that even though Uncle Sam is in-country, he can't protect the locals. He can kill the guerrillas that attack him, but he can't protect locals who are attacked when GI Joe isn't around, because GI Joe can't be everywhere. And guerrillas are smart enough to wait until GI Joe has passed by before staging their attacks.

Even the local security services can't protect the locals, at least not using American tactics. Saddam's way of protecting his people was via deterrence, by staging bloodbaths among the kin of those he suspected of attacking his kith and kin. It worked for Saddam, but we're constrained by American values from using that approach. American methods are why it takes real bravery to work for the interim government in Iraq.

When even the Governor of Baghdad can be assassinated despite the presence of dozens of bodyguards, what hope does the average Iraqi National Guard trooper have of making it out of this insurgency alive? Note that at the end of the day, he goes back to his family, who don't live in fortified camps. As of now, Iraqis haven't proven that they are as staunch as the South Vietnamese, who lost over 200K men defending their country. But they are getting tougher, and if they persist, this may rank alongside the Salvadoran and Colombian anti-insurgency actions as some of the most hard-fought around since Vietnam (and Afghanistan).

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-05 3:31:19 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-05 3:31:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 If Ukrainians were willing to take this kind of punishment, they would have kicked the Russians out long ago. (Note that the Afghans fought the Russians for close to a decade before persuading the Russians to leave. How long did the Ukrainian resistance to Soviet rule last?)

The Afghans fought the Russians and ultimately prevailed because of the USA's considerable materials and intelligence help.

The Ukrainians and the Poles never received help from us after WWI nor after WWII. The Soviets military apparatus was too strong for countries that were largely agrarian.

If we had let Patton take on the Soviets, that would have been all the help that the Eastern Bloc countries needed to beat off communism. But the timing was bad for us and the UK and there was no stomach for a longer military campaign. But if we had, pushed the Soviets back, the Eastern bloc countries would have taken to democracy and capitlaism like ducks to water IMO. There has never been any love for the Russians in either Poland or the Ukraine. Also in the Eastern bloc countries, most of them don't have the Islamic pure devotion of its subjects type of religious thingey going on like Afghanistan and Iraq, which is a significant obstacle to liberal capitalism and democracy.

Heh, Afghanistan is lumping along with its warlords and its poppy fields - I'm no purist like some RB'ers. As long as Afghanistan no longer functions as a full blown training camp for AQ, I'm okay with it. We're getting good bang for the US taxpayer buck in Afghanistan. We have minimal troops there, very few troops killed, and a reasonable amount of $ wasted on bribes of Karzani whatever his name is to 'keep the peace" there.

Iraq-well it will be interesting to see how that all works out at the end of the day. I'm not sure that the Iraqis or any ME countries have the same smarts as the Eastern Bloc countries have for one thing. It's not like they've done much since the discovery of the abacus. hush we're not supposed to speak of raw IQ any more in polite circles. As for their desire to "embrace" freedom and democracy - we'll see - the verdict is still out.
It can go either way IMO.

I look at how the Polish and Ukrainian immigrants to this country have embraced freedom and liberty and tolerance as great values. But otoh when I look at the way Muslims continue with their anti-American positions here while benefiting from its largesse and how they show reluctance to discard the restraints of their religion, I'm not getting my hopes up for Iraq. But heh, as long as they don't export terrorism from their country, what do I care if the ACLU can't build branch offices in Baghdad?

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 3:53:05 PM|| 2005-01-05 3:53:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 JB: The Afghans fought the Russians and ultimately prevailed because of the USA's considerable materials and intelligence help.

The Ukrainians and the Poles never received help from us after WWI nor after WWII. The Soviets military apparatus was too strong for countries that were largely agrarian.

The Afghans also lost a million dead during that war. Did Ukrainians die in any comparable numbers fighting the Russians? No. Instead of fighting the Russians, the Ukrainians sat around and starved to death.

But back to the point - I really don't see how a bunch of Ukrainians standing around in the cold is braver than Iraqi civilians and security forces working for the interim government being tortured to death, shot, bombed and beheaded on a daily basis. Note that we have not seen any tapes of these men begging for their lives. That can't be an accident. They died like men. Or to put it a different way - they died like Americans.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-05 4:06:08 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-05 4:06:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 the lviv/lvov (dare i say lwiw? lemberg?)city council has apparently called for Yulia to become PM. Evidently SOME ukrainians think she'll do a good job.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-05 4:30:40 PM|| 2005-01-05 4:30:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 JB: I look at how the Polish and Ukrainian immigrants to this country have embraced freedom and liberty and tolerance as great values. But otoh when I look at the way Muslims continue with their anti-American positions here while benefiting from its largesse and how they show reluctance to discard the restraints of their religion, I'm not getting my hopes up for Iraq.

This is because the US has never gone to war with either Poland and the Ukraine. German-Americans were ardently pro-Germany until Hitler declared war on the US. In fact, they spearheaded the isolationist movement along with the American left (who opposed entering the war all through the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact until Germany invaded the Soviet Union). And Japanese-Americans were fervently pro-Japan until Pearl Harbor (and many even after Pearl Harbor).

Since no Muslim government has officially declared war on the US, they aren't really sure what Afghanistan and Iraq are all about. But the one thing that is reassuring is this - none of the successful attacks on US targets by Muslim jihadists have involved American-born Muslims. Note that many of the potential terrorists arrested in America were headed abroad for jihad, not planning to kill Americans on our soil. The other interesting aspect is that many of these people could only have been betrayed by other Muslims. This means that there are Muslims who may (or may not) have agreed with them about America's foreign policy, but decided that personally killing Americans wasn't the way to address these grievances.

The Iraqis are far more protected than we are from terrorist attacks, with hundreds of thousands of military men, police and heavy equipment all over the place. And yet attacks killing dozens occur on a daily basis. They occur in Iraq but not here for one reason - the six million or so American Muslims in-country are simply not interested in slaughtering their fellow Americans.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-05 4:52:29 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-05 4:52:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 lviv/lvov (dare i say lwiw? lemberg?)city council has apparently called for Yulia to become PM. Evidently SOME ukrainians think she'll do a good job.
Hey thanks for that info, lh. I'd say that's a very good sign. Lvov is the emotional heart of western Ukraine and has always leaned to Europe rather than to Mother Russia, like Eastern Ukraine where the Russians were re-settled by Stalin and where they still have influence.

No. Instead of fighting the Russians, the Ukrainians sat around and starved to death.
That's a disgustintg contemptible statement to make, ZF. Quite frankly I expected better from you. That's like saying the Jews were willing victims, they didn't fight the Nazis, they just went calmly to the showers.

The Ukrainian farmers were no better equipped to fight the Soviet military than the Jews were to fight the German Nazis. More Ukrainians were killed in one year in the 1930's than casualities any other European modern day genocide. Grow up, ZF.

I really don't see how a bunch of Ukrainians standing around in the cold is braver than Iraqi civilians and security forces working for the interim government being tortured to death, shot, bombed and beheaded on a daily basis.
The Ukrainians, when given armaments, fought very bravely for your country in WWII and their sons fought for the US in Vietnam. Who do you think filled the ranks of WWII and Vietnam US forces- immigrants from Eastern Europe, Germany, Italy and the sons of those immigrants, that's who. The Ukrainian and Polish farmers from the Central states were very good soldiers. I think the courage of Eastern Europeans should never be in question, especially coming from a young generation American, as I assume you to be, ZF.

Note that we have not seen any tapes of these men begging for their lives. That can't be an accident. They died like men. Or to put it a different way - they died like Americans.
Dream along with me. No tapes have been made because they were shot or blown up by and large. The beheading of Westerners was for political effect and for ransom from these same countries. Who would Sunni terrorists blackmail over a Kurdish soldier being held as prisoner with the threat of beheading? Duh.

I don't know where you get all this uber confidence that the Iraqis identify with the US or our values. I have not seen any proof of this. The Shiites are sitting on the fence, waiting for elections so they can form the majority gov't. The Kurds want independence ultimately but are going along with the program because they may need US protection again in case the Shiite majority don't end up being as "federally minded" or as benevolent as promised. As for the Sunni, well we know where their interests lie and it sure isn't with the US.

At best I think we can hope that Iraq eventually lumps along like Afghanistan without much of our military or financial support needed and has a somewhat neutral or even in our wildest dreams perhaps a pro-US gov't 10 years from now.

At worst, Iraq may descend into Civil War between the Shiites and the Sunnis, with the Shiites victorious and with a definite pro-Iran tilt and antagonistic to the US. Hey that's the worst-at least the Shiites will never tilt pro-OBL, who is a Sunni extremist.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 5:06:04 PM|| 2005-01-05 5:06:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 JB: The Ukrainians, when given armaments, fought very bravely for your country in WWII and their sons fought for the US in Vietnam. Who do you think filled the ranks of WWII and Vietnam US forces- immigrants from Eastern Europe, Germany, Italy and the sons of those immigrants, that's who. The Ukrainian and Polish farmers from the Central states were very good soldiers. I think the courage of Eastern Europeans should never be in question, especially coming from a young generation American, as I assume you to be, ZF.

As did Americans of every other stripe, including many Arab-Americans. As I am sure Arab Americans will fight when they are called upon to do so. But the comparison here is not between what Ukrainian-Americans did in WWII vs what Iraqi- and Afghan-Americans did - it is between the courage of Ukrainian demonstrators standing in the cold vs Iraqis working for the interim government, who are dying by the dozens on a daily basis, after having been killed by the dozens every single day for decades.

JB: No tapes have been made because they were shot or blown up by and large. The beheading of Westerners was for political effect and for ransom from these same countries. Who would Sunni terrorists blackmail over a Kurdish soldier being held as prisoner with the threat of beheading? Duh.

Hundreds have been shot or beheaded after they were abducted. Blackmail has nothing to do with it - the whole point of these videos is to intimidate other "collaborators" into not working for the government.

JB: I don't know where you get all this uber confidence that the Iraqis identify with the US or our values.

This has nothing to with US values - it has to do with whether Iraqis working for the government are more courageous than the demonstrators in the Ukraine. One thing you've got to realize is that the people of a certain epoch in a certain geographical area stand for no one but themselves. The Ukrainian-Americans who fought in WWII covered themselves - not the Ukrainians still in the Ukraine - in glory. The German-Americans who fought like lions during WWII were great men, but not the Germans who fought against them. The Ukrainians who demonstrated in that square can't say that they are brave because Ukrainian-Americans fought well in WWII, any more than the Greeks can say that they are brave because their ancestors held off the Persians. Every generation of a certain time and place stands alone in its glory or its humiliating defeat.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-05 5:27:00 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-05 5:27:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 JB: The Ukrainians, when given armaments, fought very bravely for your country in WWII and their sons fought for the US in Vietnam. Who do you think filled the ranks of WWII and Vietnam US forces- immigrants from Eastern Europe, Germany, Italy and the sons of those immigrants, that's who. The Ukrainian and Polish farmers from the Central states were very good soldiers. I think the courage of Eastern Europeans should never be in question, especially coming from a young generation American, as I assume you to be, ZF.

Again, JB seems unable or unwilling to make even elementary distinctions. He is questioning Muslim opposition to American foreign policy without understanding the origin of this opposition, which is that the US is attacking Muslim countries. When were Ukrainians or Poles in the US ever called upon to fight their home countries? Japanese- and German-Americans have balked at fighting their home countries - until a formal declaration of hostilities - so Muslim-American opposition is not particularly exceptional. Conflating the wartime sacrifices of American immigrants with a mere peacetime outdoor demonstration in a city square is an insult to the former's sacrifices. Saying that this same demonstration show superior courage to that of the sacrifices of various Iraqis working for the government is simply odd - if this is so, then what does the word courage mean?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-05 5:34:57 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-05 5:34:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 The Ukrainians, when given armaments, fought very bravely for your country in WWII and their sons fought for the US in Vietnam. Who do you think filled the ranks of WWII and Vietnam US forces- immigrants from Eastern Europe, Germany, Italy and the sons of those immigrants, that's who. The Ukrainian and Polish farmers from the Central states were very good soldiers. I think the courage of Eastern Europeans should never be in question,

I offer as evidence my uncle/godfather, Joseph Phillipovich Kowalchuk. Silver Star and 2 Bronze stars and 3 Purple Hearts, all awarded to this very young sargeant at Bastogne in the darkest days of WWII.

His sister Olga's husband Joseph Petro: in the first wave of paratroopers at Normandy and then again at the battle of the Bulge.

In all, 8 of the 9 Kowalchuk brothers and their 1 brother-in-law saw combat in WWII. Several, like my father, lied about their age to enlist. My father was the last one badly wounded, when the airplane he was a gunner on was shot down in the Pacific. This was after he survived having his ship sunk out from underneath him earlier. He spent 15 months in a body cast and rehab, emerged into the US economy after the other GIs had already claimed the jobs and the places at college.

He never complained.

There were Kowalchuks in combat in Korea and Vietnam. My cousins flew for USAF and commanded missile silos during the Cold War. Some of their kids are serving in uniform today.

None of this is surprising, as my great-grandfather and his ancestors held their estates in the Ukraine in exchange for breeding and training cavalry horses and for organizing and leading border patrols of those vast grasslands. Often they were gone on patrol for 6 months at a time, and the women ran the estate in their absence.

I didn't marry a Ukrainian, but my husband is a retired USAF officer who now teaches future Army officers at West Point. The tradition continues.

Robin Kowalchuk Burk

Posted by rkb 2005-01-05 5:35:26 PM|| 2005-01-05 5:35:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 ZF, I agree with your statement that each generation must establish their own creds - or not - in their own time and place.

I disagree with you re: willingness of Ukrainians to fight for the US against the Ukraine. I have close relatives who collected military intelligence from the Soviet Union, including the Ukraine, had close encounters with their fighter aircraft and were willing to launch nuclear-armed missiles against them. They did not take that stance lightly.

Posted by rkb 2005-01-05 5:41:38 PM|| 2005-01-05 5:41:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 You missed my point about citing Ukrainians and Poles fighting bravely in WW II and Vietnam. You implied Ukrainians were a scardey cat race who didn't fight back when Stalin starved them. my point was they had nothing but pitch forks to fight the Soviet military-many fought and died, but starvation does sap one's strength. The number of Ukrainians who starved in 1 year is estimated to be over 12 million - in 1 year. My point was if we had armed the Ukrainians then with what we're giving the Afghans and Iraqis now, there'd be no question that the Ukrainians would have delivered themselves from the evil Stalinists. No one helped the Ukrainians not after WWI and not after WWII. So where do you get off mocking their courage and holding up the courage of Afghans and Iraqis as something so refined and worrthy of our respect? Don't kid yourself for one insta-second - we are doing all the heavy lifting in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Afghanistan would be more of a problem than it is if we didn't reach a quid pro quo arrangement with the war lords about letting them pursue their poppy field agriculture, which was cut back under the Taliban religious rule days. That's not bravery we're seeing in Afghanistanright now-that's lack of free time on their hands because they are too busy cultivating drug profits. As for the "brave" Iraqis - the Kurds are our allies - the best we can hope for from the Shiites is neutrality which they have given us by and large thusfar. As for the "brave" Shiite/Sunni soldiers and national gaurd, puhleaze...even our own military leadership has confirmed that the Iraqi forces on the whole have been less than brave and not exactly consistent in being responsible or predictable (apart from the Kurdish contingent). I would suggest to you that in terms of sheer numbers of "brave" Iraqi soldiers blown up and killed versus not so brave Iraqi soldiers who have cut and run and left their uniforms and armaments behind for the "insurgents", there are greater numbers in the latter column than in the former column. Get serious. If we pulled out our troops today, Iraq would fall like a deck of cards tomorrow, except for the Kurdish territory.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 5:45:56 PM|| 2005-01-05 5:45:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 JB: You implied Ukrainians were a scardey cat race who didn't fight back when Stalin starved them. my point was they had nothing but pitch forks to fight the Soviet military-many fought and died, but starvation does sap one's strength. The number of Ukrainians who starved in 1 year is estimated to be over 12 million - in 1 year.

This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It has to do with demonstrated courage. When cornered, people can fight like lions. Or they can meet their fate passively. Starvation can demoralize. Or it can lead to violent resistance, as occurred in the Warsaw Ghetto. Ukrainian-Americans met the test, Ukrainians did not. Afghanistan wasn't exactly a land of milk and honey when the Soviets invaded. How exactly did Afghans eat when the Soviets sowed the fields with mines?

JB: Don't kid yourself for one insta-second - we are doing all the heavy lifting in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

We are doing the heavy lifting, but the Iraqis working for the government are now doing the bulk of the dying and certainly a lot more dying than a bunch of Ukrainian demonstrators. Once again there is no way you can compare their courage with that of those demonstrators. When you get a bunch of murdering thugs after the Ukrainians on a daily basis, maybe - but not today.

JB: I would suggest to you that in terms of sheer numbers of "brave" Iraqi soldiers blown up and killed versus not so brave Iraqi soldiers who have cut and run and left their uniforms and armaments behind for the "insurgents", there are greater numbers in the latter column than in the former column. Get serious.

Has a single Ukrainian demonstrator been blown up? Beheaded? How can you compare the courage of demonstrators against that of a people subject to successful and fatal armed attacks every single day? The reason I say Iraqis working for the government are brave is because they are being killed by the dozens every single day. How many Ukrainian demonstrators were killed in that square? How many are being killed today?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-05 6:13:20 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-05 6:13:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 It does not detract from the recent achievement of the Ukrainian people to note that ZF is right. The Ukrainians during the last fifteen years have not suffered anything at all like what the Iraqis suffered under Saddam.

The point here is that Ukrainian passivity is the result of the complete destruction of both civil society, under communism, and public governance and rule of law, under post-communist kleptocrats like Lazarenko, Kuchma and their partner in crime, Yulka Tymoshenko. The wages of such corruption is a polity and a populace so enfeebled that relatively minor acts of political normalcy, like the recent demonstrations, are heralded as a "revolution."

Again, no skin off these people's necks, but what happened in Ukraine was not anywhere close to a "revolution." It doesn't even compare to what happened in Prague and E Berlin in 1989. They simply gave a qualified no to kleptocracy-- qualified because in their rejection of Yanukovich they have embraced Mademoiselle Bandit.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 6:22:10 PM|| 2005-01-05 6:22:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Are you people nuts? The Ukraine had 12 million of their people starved to death by the Russian communists in 1 year. What part of that equation can you not understand as contributing to the brutal subjugation of those peoples, which you blithely label as "apathy."
http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/kuhner.htm
At a recent conference at McGill University in Montreal, sponsored by Memorial, a leading Kiev research institute, the full extent of Soviet atrocities was exposed. Roman Krutsyk, the head of the institute, explained that newly discovered documents and archives show that about "50 million ethnic Ukrainians within the borders of the Soviet Union" were killed during the Bolshevik regime from 1917 to 1991.

By comparison, let's look at Afghanistan and Iraq where we hope to spawn a love of democracy and a pluristic society, concepts which unfortunately are totally foreign to their 7th century religion - no worries- it will happen - just "believe" We have spent nearly $300 Billion in the past 2 years and lost approximately 1500 troops propping up 2 Islamic dominated countries with little help from the "liberated" peoples themselves except for pockets of help from the entrepreneural( to be polite) Afghan warlords and from Kurdish Iraqis. And you think these 2 Islamic countries' peoples are oh-so brave and so worthy of our respect??? Why? They've done nothing for themselves. Ever. Except go from one Muslim despot to another and pick on the Kurds whenever they get a chance. That's courageous?

Whereas we have not done next to nothing for the Eastern Bloc countries except pretend Stalin wasn't committing genocide in 1932-33 and pretend that everything was going to go swell for the Poles and Ukrainians after WWII. Nice Mr. Stalin was our ally after all. But let's make sure Germany and France are re-built. They will be great allies in the future if we help them after WWII. Yesiree that really worked, didn't it?

And to add salt to the wound you say that tsk, tsk the rampant corruption in the Eastern European countries makes them hopeless?

Since when was the Communist Soviet corruption fully wiped out from the Ukraine or Poland? It never happened. We gave these countries very little economic aid after the USSR fell, whereas we hand aid hand over fist to any Muslim country that pokes its hands from out of its burkas. We let these Eastern countries sink or swim by their own devices, by and large, so obviously they are going to rely on old underground corrupt systems to get by. It's only since the Poles and Ukrainians and other "new European" countries have joined us in the Iraq War, that the US has even given these countries a second glance, never mind financial perks.

Always Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, and Mexico {all corruption free countries}were named as our good friends, our favored allies, and to whom we have sent big chunks of foreign aid over the years for doing squat for the USA. Big friends they have turned out to be with regards to Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, unless I'm mistaken Turkey pulled the rug from under the USA re: Iraq and weren't several of the 9/11 terrorists carrying Egyptian passports and wasn't it Mexico who had a Security Council seat and voted AGAINST the US regarding the Iraq war? Nice how our hallowed friends treat us and how wonderfully free and democratic these countries are, not to mention how capitalistically successful their economies are.

You seem to think because Reagan said tear down that wall, Mr. Gorbachov... whamo vamo communism disappears? I've got news for you - it doesn't. It may take 50 years of struggle for those nations to finally get rid of the vestiges of the communist moles and communist believers in their society.

Fyi, East Germans whom you credit with such courage wouldn't know how button their shirts without instructions from Putin were it not for the West Germans taking them under their wings with re-unification. As for the Velvet Revolution in Prague in 1989, a bloodless revolution I might add, the Czechs had the tacit help of Gorbachov with the introduction of Perestroika reforms. Gorbachov didn't care much for the Czech communist hardliner PM of the time, Gustav Husak, who had assumed power after the Soviet Invasion of 1968, so it was much easier for the Czechs reformers to force him and his cronies out of power. Consider that the Czechs never represented a geopolitical prize for the Kremlin/KGB power brokers anyways, whereas the Ukraine (and Poland to a lesser degree) represent something symbolic to the Russians and to their dreams of empire and domination past and future.

Russia will grip the Ukraine and Poland as long as their communist grubbing fingers can hold on. And now of course with Russia needing the "right of way" for their Golden Goose egg ie. oil pipelines to traverse these 2 countries to European markets, Putin will continue to meddle and manipulate their politics whenever he gets the chance.

I have nothing but respect for what the Poles and the Ukrainians have done for themselves thusfar, and I believe, like Rumsfeld, that these are our true allies - new Europe - even though we've done very little to earn their loyalty and co-operation. Perhaps it's the white color of their skin or their insistence on having a non Muslim religion in their lives, but somehow these Eastern European countries continue to be an "overlooked" region of the world when it comes to American largesse or interest or optimism.

Posted by joeblow 2005-01-05 8:00:15 PM|| 2005-01-05 8:00:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 They simply gave a qualified no to kleptocracy-- qualified because in their rejection of Yanukovich they have embraced Mademoiselle Bandit.

They gave an unqualified *yes* to democracy and independence, which are also important values. When the other side poisons the opposition leader, beheads journalists and is seen taking direct commands from Putin, I'm sure the fact that Yulia was once an oligarch is seen as trivial in comparison.

And I wish I had seen you attack the Kremlin-supporting oligarchs one quarter as much you are attacking the anti-Kremlin oligarchs. I could believe you as a non-biased observer then, rather than a fellow whose words reveal him to have a grudge against the independence movement of Ukraine.

You never gave a damn about attacking the oligarchs of Ukraine until one of them started vigorously opposing Moscow's dreams of Ukraine -- Tymoshenko pretty much *cemented* the Orange Revolution, by convincing Yushchenko himself to become the leader of the opposition.

So when I suddenly see you care about *this* oligarch so very much more than you cared before, I do have to wonder if your words state the real reason for it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-05 10:05:12 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-05 10:05:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Let me be clear. Again, I'm totally in favor of Ukrainian democracy and have great respect for the recent upswell of Ukrainian democratic action. Because I favor this so strongly, and because I myself have seen such actions betrayed hideously by faux democrats in Russia during the mid to late 1990s-- a betrayal and a failure that directly resulted in Putin's coming to power in that country-- I consider it extremely important for Yushchenko and his partisans to purge their movement of kleptocratic faux democrats like Mademoiselle Bandit.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 10:08:53 PM|| 2005-01-05 10:08:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 And I wish I had seen you attack the Kremlin-supporting oligarchs one quarter as much you are attacking the anti-Kremlin oligarchs.

Do I know you? Who are you? Me, I've lived through it, mate. I was there. My family and I have suffered at their hands.

I could believe you as a non-biased observer then, rather than a fellow whose words reveal him to have a grudge against the independence movement of Ukraine.

Calm down. If you're going to pick a fight with me, then you'll have to learn some basic rules of how adults make valid arguments. Lesson #1: Avoid straw man arguments.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 10:12:43 PM|| 2005-01-05 10:12:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 And now of course with Russia needing the "right of way" for their Golden Goose egg ie. oil pipelines to traverse these 2 countries to European markets, Putin will continue to meddle and manipulate their politics whenever he gets the chance.

Funny that you mention this because there is a political scandal right now in Poland concerning certain Polish oil companies, Polish corrupt politicians, and Russian involvement. The big fear is that Poland will become dependent on Russia for fuel/energy.

Posted by Rafael 2005-01-05 10:23:58 PM|| 2005-01-05 10:23:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 scandal right now in Poland concerning certain Polish oil companies, Polish corrupt politicians, and Russian involvement

Good point. Again, folks, corruption in these post-soviet bloc countries is far more than an economic issue. It goes to the heart of the viability and integrity of the state, ie of democracy, and the ability of a nation to exist as a collection of free men rather than helots.

Posted by lex 2005-01-05 10:42:14 PM|| 2005-01-05 10:42:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Wow -- Russian Jews have the highest IQs?? That must be why I'm half smart!

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-05 10:49:07 PM|| 2005-01-05 10:49:07 PM|| Front Page Top

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