Article

2004-12-13 Europe

Turkish leader warns of terror wave if EU rejects membership

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Posted by tipper 2004-12-13 02:15|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Let us in or else!

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 2:29:39 AM|| 2004-12-13 2:29:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 "Let me in, Let me in, little infidel pig or I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house in!"

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 7:11:28 AM|| 2004-12-13 7:11:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Turkey is a secular state........

Posted by Dutchgeek 2004-12-13 7:44:41 AM|| 2004-12-13 7:44:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Well, for how long, that is the question. Nothing is permanent.

Of course, my comments were in jest, interpretting the headline rather than the story.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 7:54:33 AM|| 2004-12-13 7:54:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 EU? Read Germany and France

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 8:23:44 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:23:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 The jihadi impulse is never too far below the surface, is it?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 8:27:34 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-12-13 8:27:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Frank, da point? That Eiffel tower is in grave danger?

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 8:28:55 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:28:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 if the EU rejects Turkey as a member and confirms itself as a Christian club.
Sad to say, but Europe hasn't been Christian in a long time.

Posted by Spot 2004-12-13 8:53:20 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:53:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Turkey is right - they are being jerked around by the EU.

Too bad they chose Chirac over the US when they refused permission to go into northern Iraq. The Sunni triangle would be quiet by now, their Kurdish problem would be on the mend as Kurds moved back to northern Iraq from the Turkish mountains to which they fled, and they would have the gratitude of US friends rather than the normal perfidy of France and her allies.

A pity, you know? But not a damned thing we can do about it. So have fun, Turkey, being jerked around by Les Franks et al ....

Posted by too true 2004-12-13 9:21:12 AM|| 2004-12-13 9:21:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Sobiesky, I was only pointing out to the Turks where they need to look.....surely Poland didn't take the lead on this, although our good friend Aris says any member could....riiigghhhtt

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 10:00:50 AM|| 2004-12-13 10:00:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Turkey is right - they are being jerked around by the EU.

And the Turks didn't see this coming? Hahahaha...

On the other hand, it would probably be a good thing if the EU rejects Turkey's membership. Being willing to shaft the U.S. for short-term political gain and then warning of a "wave of terror" if not given membership in the EU don't strike me as the hallmarks of a potential good neighbor.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-12-13 11:03:38 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:03:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Resorting to idle threats now... Turkey in the EU?? Mwahahahahaha! The touchy-feely mob aren't going to have that - even their love for an ethnically diverse Europe won't overcome their disgust at Turkey's human-rights record. Much seething and panty-knots to come...

Posted by Howard UK 2004-12-13 11:09:09 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:09:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 surely Poland didn't take the lead on this, although our good friend Aris says any member could....riiigghhhtt

Haven't been reading up on Ukraine, have you? A situation when Poland did take the lead of the EU.

Keep your sarcastic "riiiigghhhtt"s to yourself. They are as ignorant as the rest of you.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 11:40:55 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:40:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Re Ukraine, Aris is right. The EU has worked exactly as it should, with an unambiguous support for democracy from the elites, the huge magnet of EU prosperity inducing Ukrainian fence-sitters to support Yushchenko, and the political flexibility to let Poland take the lead. The problem we have is EU elites' behavior outside Europe, mainly in the middle east.

Posted by lex 2004-12-13 11:47:18 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:47:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 thanks Aris ;-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 12:01:20 PM|| 2004-12-13 12:01:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Damn. I thought he said he was going to leave.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 12:29:16 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-12-13 12:29:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 And here they go: The troll and the clown. The one who thinks his ignorance is a virtue to be praised, and the one who proudly tries to pretend to be even slower than he actually is (isn't having much success -- can't be slower that fully stopped after all).

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 12:41:20 PM|| 2004-12-13 12:41:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Someone on this board long ago mentioned that if Turkey joined the EU that would mean the EU has a direct border with the Middle East and al of its problems. Problems that Europe doesn't want to deal with.

This fact alone seems to ensure Turkey will never make it until the Middle East quiets down significantly.

So what ever happened to Israel's push to become a member of the EU?

Posted by rjschwarz 2004-12-13 12:42:26 PM|| [http://rjschwarz.typepad.com] 2004-12-13 12:42:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Someone on this board long ago mentioned that if Turkey joined the EU that would mean the EU has a direct border with the Middle East and al of its problems. Problems that Europe doesn't want to deal with

If so, that's a foolish argument. The dysfunctional middle east is already throwing its toxic waste into the EU's back yard and will continue to do so whether Turkey's in or out. Al Qaeda's already heavily penetrated major European cities. I would think it makes more sense to have Turkey inside the EU tent pissing out than v-v.

Posted by lex 2004-12-13 12:45:49 PM|| 2004-12-13 12:45:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Murat - Where are you???? You don't have anything to say about this?

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-12-13 12:49:29 PM|| 2004-12-13 12:49:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 I would think it makes more sense to have Turkey inside the EU tent pissing out than v-v.

If this politico's threats are to be taken seriously, it seems a weak liability like Turkey would either be pissing within the tent from inside it or pissing up against it from outside, seeing as Erdogan thinks it's little more than a conduit for Islamist nutjobs. That's a more accurate analogy.

I'm in favour of Turkish membership as a way of limiting the insane federal ambitions of EU federasts and Franco-centralist neo-Gaullists, but if Turks start threatening to rain down Muslim barbarity on their more civilised neighbours if they don't get their way and get in... Perhaps they had better try again later. What a load.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-12-13 12:57:31 PM|| 2004-12-13 12:57:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Isn't Murat with Gentle? Or was?

Posted by Alaska Paul In Nikolaevsk, Alaska 2004-12-13 1:00:12 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:00:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Dang Aris, you might hurt my feelings, if I cared....

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 1:02:12 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:02:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#24
22: I thought that was Mr. Davis?

Posted by Fred 2004-12-13 1:19:18 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:19:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 RE: Poland, the point was well taken even if Aris missed it.

Poland is one of the most Christian countries in Europe but it isn't at the forefront of rejecting Turkish membership -- the much more secular, almost anti-Christian countries like France and Germany are.

Posted by too true 2004-12-13 1:37:07 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:37:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Frank, don't care about my opinion (indeed I wish that you were indifferent enough about my person that you wouldn't care to troll for me) -- but please do try to care about facts.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 1:39:19 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:39:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 too true> I think the reason that France and Germany are to the forefront of objecting to Turkish membership is actually their fear of an influx of worker immigrants from there -- it would probably not be Poland that'd receive them.

I don't think that Christianity or lack thereof really plays the greatest of parts -- though to some point I guess it may be true, that the less conservative nations might have an additional reason to not want the membership of a conservative country like Turkey, especially one of this size.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 1:44:18 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:44:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I don't think that Christianity or lack thereof really plays the greatest of parts

Don't kid yourself.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-13 1:47:49 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:47:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Mrs Davis> That'd be helpful if it actually contained an argument. Can you (or "too true") tell me *why* you think the Christian nations would have an added reason to include a Muslim nation in the EU but the "anti-Christian" nations wouldn't?

As I said socially conservative-vs-socially progressive might be a better explanation.

But a stark "don't kid yourself", Mrs. Davis, is just rude for rudeness sake. Please, expand your reasoning, and don't automatically think that anyone who disagrees with you must be merely deluding themselves.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 1:55:31 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:55:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 happy orkomosia, learn a little, say a lot?

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 2:40:24 PM|| 2004-12-13 2:40:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 How are Turkey and western European countries natural/compatible allies? It seems a forced union despite geographical closeness.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-12-13 2:47:12 PM|| 2004-12-13 2:47:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 You're right, Fred: Murat (I forget which iteration) and Mr. Davis fought over Miss Gentle, and Mr. D won, which is why that Murat turned mean. It was quite a tale Mrs. D told us that evening.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-12-13 2:58:56 PM|| 2004-12-13 2:58:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 RC: #16 Damn. I thought he said he was going to leave.

Broken promises. Same ol'.
But, it would be a perfect modus operandi for a politician! Aris, you could have a bright future. Think about it...

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 3:08:06 PM|| 2004-12-13 3:08:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Since I'm not a politician, and I don't owe any of you either money or votes, there's a difference between a promise and a statement of intent.

Saying "I won't post again since you are all imbecilic jerks" or something similar, does not exactly qualify as a "promise" in my books. It's more of a declaration.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 3:22:05 PM|| 2004-12-13 3:22:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 a declaration you won't back, typical, and a shame

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 3:24:56 PM|| 2004-12-13 3:24:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 One signed copy of "Howe to Win Friends and Influence People" to our Turkish friend.

Posted by Capt America 2004-12-13 4:13:36 PM|| 2004-12-13 4:13:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Sort of like the Declaration of Indepence. That's why we colonists all consider ourselves subjects of Her Majesty Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and North America and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith .

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-13 4:20:59 PM|| 2004-12-13 4:20:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 It's called "Changing one's mind" -- but that idea may be overnuanced for you. The experience did teach me however that if I ever decide to leave again, I neither need nor will I bother to announce it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 4:27:38 PM|| 2004-12-13 4:27:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 So it could happen with no warning? Like the Rapture?

Posted by Fry Ash Is Us 2004-12-13 4:36:26 PM|| 2004-12-13 4:36:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 And appropriately, no one will care either. :)

Posted by Orson Buggy 2004-12-13 5:42:47 PM|| 2004-12-13 5:42:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 now that's a nym - Orson :-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 5:44:59 PM|| 2004-12-13 5:44:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 The moral is ... it is like Beetlejuice, the moment you call his name, he's back with all the label props like 'imbecillic, ignorant, etc., yada, yada'. No feeding, please.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 6:08:06 PM|| 2004-12-13 6:08:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 ... it is like Beetlejuice, the moment you call his name

More accurately "the moment you troll for him". There's a difference: For the trolling to be successful besides the invocation of the Name, you'll also have to add mixtures of insufferable and wilful cluelessness. For even better results you'll need to display that quality while simultaneously trying to claim it for my person.

As for the labels, I'm a member of the reality-based community, and both eager and proud to deal in facts -- people who hate this, people like Frank who spew their ignorance as if they are proud of the vomit they cast before the world -- I have utter contempt for those people and am not ashamed to show it.

Mrs. Davis "don't kid yourself", Robert "I thought he left", Frank's trolling and sarcastic "thank you"'s, Sobiesky's own personal attacks.

...check, check, check. Frank never cared to either defend or concede his point (typical troll behaviour), Mrs Davis lack of argumentation for the sake of the easy applies-to-everything phrase....

Anyone cares to discuss political points as I did in #13, #27, #29? Nope, didn't think so -- you'll just insult and jeer, without any strength to back your punch. You are still contemptible maggots.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 7:44:50 PM|| 2004-12-13 7:44:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 You are still contemptible maggots.

Coming from you, I accept the compliment

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 7:48:05 PM|| 2004-12-13 7:48:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Poor little Aris. No one will play nicely with him. Don't be surprised if he picks up his keyboard, stamps his feet and goes home without warning.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-13 7:50:00 PM|| 2004-12-13 7:50:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 ...I'm a member of the reality-based community...

LOL Wonderful quote! So many of us are reality-based, but it takes a real visionary to ascend to the highest levels of self-importance and logical incomprehensibility.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-12-13 7:54:00 PM|| 2004-12-13 7:54:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Aris: "Anyone cares to discuss political points as I did in #13"

Lemme see: "Keep your sarcastic "riiiigghhhtt"s to yourself. They are as ignorant as the rest of you."

Kettle, meet pot. Pot, meet kettle.
It is just amazing that you see the fault in everyone but yourself. Well, it is not that amazing. I learned to expect that from people of your political leaning. I am sorry to say...

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 7:54:41 PM|| 2004-12-13 7:54:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 LOL - hurts as much as being called a "cracker", don't it?

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 7:56:42 PM|| 2004-12-13 7:56:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 AK, I want ya here. Sometimes I enjoy reading your thoughts even though I usually disagree with them.

Just don't wimper when ya get flamed. And there are lotsa flame-throwers here, my friend.

Posted by Brett_the_Quarkian 2004-12-13 8:11:40 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:11:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 AK, why don't you go get a Victor D. Hanson piece at NRO (or Ralph Peters, etc.), "fisk" it with your commentary and post here!

That way, YOU initiate the conversation! Set the tone, baby.

Posted by Brett_the_Quarkian 2004-12-13 8:14:22 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:14:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 I read today where the foreign minister of France wants and apology for the Armenian Genocide. Thats a non starter. Turkey will never admit to it. If it walks like a duck talks like a duck, it is a duck. It was a genocide. So whats France telling Turkey?

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-12-13 8:16:21 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-12-13 8:16:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 So whats France telling Turkey?

'Get on your knees and beg'?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-12-13 8:21:21 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:21:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Aris sees the world thru the lens of socialist historicism and as a result terms like 'progressive' make sense to him. While he is better than he used to be, he still has a problem dealing with issues that don't compute in his world view and resorts to 'facts'. To quote an Indian Marxist friend of mine. 'Never get into an argument over facts with a Marxist. They will always have more facts than you do.' The point being a fact per se is the most worthless thing in the world, becuase there is an infinite supply of them.

Posted by phil_b 2004-12-13 8:23:36 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:23:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 And from what I've read of prominent Marxists, many of said facts were made up on the spot. Aris doesn't specialise in facts - he specialises in wordplay and sophistry.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-12-13 8:26:51 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:26:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 my take on Aris - he goes for EU-baiting like a hungry trout. He assumes he knows more about America than those living here because the whole world conforms to his EU-centric worldview.Yes, I'm a bad boy for baiting him, and I'll get a chunk of EU ~~German~~ coal in my stocking for Xmas, but it's fun, dammit, because he responds exactly the way he bitches at me about. Pot meet kettle is a good call, Sobiesky, he just can't see the irony. I firmly believe the all-smothering EU-nanny state is a tragic mistake for many fine european countries, who desperately want the economic benefits without understanding the selling-out of their political rights to un-elected, un-appointed EUro-crats. France is playing them for suckers, with German help. We'll see how easy it is to get out without losing all econ benefits

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 8:31:21 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:31:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 I wasn't even trying to troll him. He's just such a know-it-all asshole, he thinks he has to respond to everything.

Anyone cares to discuss political points as I did in #13, #27, #29?

With you, Aris? I'd rather go through LASIK again.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 8:35:11 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-12-13 8:35:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 So, RC, which of us is the troll, and which the clown? :-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 8:37:28 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:37:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 I'll be the clown, since they're the natural enemies of mimes.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 8:38:00 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-12-13 8:38:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 If you go back 2 or 3 years in the RB archives you will see that Aris used to drive me nuts. He is a chronic avoider of issues that don't fit in his worldview. The irony is the issues he is right about get lost in the noise resulting from the issues he avoids.

Posted by phil_b 2004-12-13 8:40:41 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:40:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Bulldog, phil, I'm definitely not a Marxist.

The point being a fact per se is the most worthless thing in the world, becuase there is an infinite supply of them.

Mere listing of facts aren't enough because people must also use logic in order to apply the facts. But other than that, your friend didn't have a point. In order to battle someone who is well informed you have to know your own mind and know *why* you are opposing them. If you don't know why you disagree with him well enough to make a reasonable argument against him, then it's time to change your mind, rather than resort to mockery.

But what exactly are *you* saying -- that people shouldn't use facts in their arguments? If so, that's as horrible as Bush's mockery of the use of numbers in his debate with Gore.

"and as a result terms like 'progressive' make sense to him"

LOL! There are lots and lots of people here who consider "conservative" a meaningful term, and yet you have a problem with "progressive"?

But if it makes you feel better I only use the word "progressive" in reference to societal issues, not economic ones. Namely those issues where "conservation of traditions" and fear of change is the main (non-) argument of the so-called right-wing. And where changing out of those traditions (aka society progressing) is the main motivation of the so-called "liberals/left-wing"

I've never used "progressive" in reference to economical issues.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 8:43:03 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:43:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 And there Aris goes again, failing completely to get someone's point because, frankly, he can't comprehend the language well enough.

Bulldog's point is that facts are most often little more than anecdotes, and useless for reaching a conclusion. You can find, for example, instances of Stalin being incredibly compassionate. Those instances are facts, but are useless because they don't adequately explain the reality.

Another example is your depiction of conservative positions. There are no doubt instances where fear of change is the "main argument", but that's not the general case, and the anecdote is useless as explanation.

It's a wonderful straw man, though, and no doubt believing it makes you feel better about yourself.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 8:57:29 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-12-13 8:57:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 I firmly believe the all-smothering EU-nanny state is a tragic mistake for many fine european countries, who desperately want the economic benefits without understanding the selling-out of their political rights to un-elected, un-appointed EUro-crats.

Wow. both unelected *and* un-appointed?

Frank, you say "He assumes he knows more about America " and yet it's *you* who's condemned the EU, it's not me who's condemned the USA. How many times have you seen me discuss USA's internal issues and USA's internal politics? Other than support of same-sex marriage ofcourse, which hardly concerns the USA alone.

You have as much right to your hatred of the EU as anyone, and it wouldn't bother me. It's the fact that's it's an utterly *ignorant* hatred that I despise. It's the fact you honestly seem proud of that ignorance.

On my part I'd rather have some abstract "nanny-state" that gets blamed by the Brits but which I know has in practice *increased* my freedoms rather that *twenty-five* "nanny states" that diminish them.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 8:57:34 PM|| 2004-12-13 8:57:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Robert Crawford> That was phil, not Bulldog.

"point is facts are most often little more than anecdotes, and useless for reaching a conclusion"

And I vehemently disagreed with him.

"You can find, for example, instances of Stalin being incredibly compassionate."

And that's a fact that shows even mass-murdering dictators can be compassionate when the mood strikes them.

If you want a complete picture, then you *add* facts to form the picture, you don't just guffaw and say "I have no use for steenking facts". You don't close your eyes/ears and hum.

YOU DON'T DENY REALITY.

Another example is your depiction of conservative positions. There are no doubt instances where fear of change is the "main argument", but that's not the general case, and the anecdote is useless as explanation.

Even when it's not the "main" argument, "conserving tradition" always remains a big part in the minds of those people who think that something being so-and-so for thousands of years is an argument in favour of preserving it so-and-so for the next thousand as well. You'll see that in each case tradition is brought forward only by one side of the argument, the one not coincidentally labelled "conservative" one.

Some times ofcourse they won't call it "tradition", they'll call it "values of the founders of our nation" instead. Or "Christian morality". Or "Judeochristian heritage". "Or Christian roots of European civilisation". Or something.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 9:07:29 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:07:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 "abstract" or otherwise, nanny-states, by definition, don't increase freedoms, ya statist nut. Why, if you graduated today, are you here arguing with us...get a life, get out, and celebrate! Jeeebus! troll, clown, or loser, which would you rather be?

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 9:07:36 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:07:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Well "troll" is definitely something I don't want to be, and I'd rather be the loser than the clown. So, yeah "loser" is the choice.

As a sidenote it feels obnoxious when you insert things about my personal life into a discussion about something else. I don't comment on *your* life.

On your worthless existence and stupidity yes, as they are evidenced in the thread *here*. But I don't search the net for tidbits of your life you may be posting elsewhere. Once again I'd ask you to become *less* interested in me that you are.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 9:16:46 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:16:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 This is almost getting as bad as LGF. Pretty soon, we'll all be putting little AK and Murat to bed, having a nightcap or two together, asking each other about our kids, and saying nighty-night.

Of course, some other token antagonists might s-troll through...

OK, nevermind, it is fun after all. :)

Not that I have much against LGF; it just got a little sappy after registration.

Posted by Asedwich 2004-12-13 9:17:11 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:17:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 And as a sidenote:

"abstract" or otherwise, nanny-states, by definition, don't increase freedoms,

That's why I had "nanny-state" in quotes, ofcourse. You give it that label, that doesn't mean I accept it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 9:18:59 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:18:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 LOL, OK, then, Loser it is. I aim to please, if I aim at all....

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 9:22:44 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:22:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 Trolls are not real. What ever they say is just that, trolling for the desired result, disruption and thread jacking. Aris is not a troll. Aris is a real person with his own perspective. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't cause him to become a troll.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-12-13 9:23:17 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-12-13 9:23:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 SPOD - you have to scroll all the way up to #17 to see where that came from..... I guess I'm the Troll. RC took Clown. Aris chose the other

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 9:26:29 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:26:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 Has anyone noticed how Aris and Murat seem to show up together, flame around for a few days then disappear at the same time to return again afew days later? Coincidence? I think not.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-13 9:29:02 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:29:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 A complaint about the "reality based community" thingy: it's wearing a bit thin. I take it it's meant to be a put-down of the "faith-based community". But then does the reality based community include atheist conservatives? For instance,among bloggers people like Steven den Beste, Jon Ray, and Keith Burgess Jackson. The conservative atheists subscribe to a different reality than the leftist atheists do. So which reality is the real reality? :-)

Posted by HV 2004-12-13 9:58:06 PM|| 2004-12-13 9:58:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 HV> Actually "reality-based community" is a label given us, not one we've invented for ourselves.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/101704A.shtml

'In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 10:09:02 PM|| 2004-12-13 10:09:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 It would keep the comments section a bit shorter if some posters refrained from "Aris-baiting" whenever a posting about the EU comes up. :-)

Re Turkey: The question is not so much whether the EU can accomodate Turkey. The heart of the matter is: What kind of an EU do we want? This is the question the Turks can't answer for us.

As long as we can't define what Europe is now and what we want it to be in the future, we should pause.

If we want a real close European unity, with a common policy, I just don't see how Turkey could fit in. If we opt for a free trade zone with an association of states (some of them closer associated than other), we can go ahead and even take in the Maghreb and the Caucasus, maybe even Russia. But this is not what the founders of the European Union wanted.

What we definitely need (with Turkey or without) is a profound de-bureaucratization of the EU and a vigorous democratization at the same time. If we fail to do both, the European Union will not last... with Turkey or without it.

Right now the decisions that affect our lives the most are already cast in Brussels while we the people have only a very limited control and say over them.

The Euro was decided without us, the European Warrant was decided without us and the European Constitution is intended to be decided without us. Thousands of EU regulations that deeply affect our daily life are also decided without any meaningful participation of the people.

The EU that demands high standards of democracy from new members could need a healthy dosis of the same.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-12-13 10:22:16 PM|| 2004-12-13 10:22:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 It would keep the comments section a bit shorter if some posters refrained from "Aris-baiting" whenever a posting about the EU comes up. :-)

Jeez...who let the adults in?

:-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 10:33:08 PM|| 2004-12-13 10:33:08 PM|| Front Page Top