Article

2004-09-09 Africa: North

Algeria Islamic Parties Oppose Women's Right Reforms Move

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Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-09-09 7:00:29 AM|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Bouteflika is walking a tightrope as he must satisfy reformists who helped him get re-elected and now complain Morocco and Tunisia have overtaken Algeria on the issue.

even if the fundies are blocking change in Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia are leading the way to a new, reformed Islam.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-09 8:49:39 AM|| 2004-09-09 8:49:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Some of our Muslim "brethren" certainly have become defensive and prickly about their status as men. How amusing that a plan that stands for fair treatment of fellow humans is a threat to their manhood. Just what is so threatening?

The reform bans men from divorcing their wives for no reason and gives women the right to financial support from their ex-husbands. Men would need their wivesâ permission to take more wives, up to the four permitted by Islam. The Islamic Shariah law-inspired code would scrap the need for women to ask permission from a male family member to marry.

I see. So-
1. They would be expected to have valid and substantial reasons for divorce.
2. They would be required to share income with women who are discouraged by their society from working and are "marked" after divorce for ostracization and societal shame.
3. They would be required to give their wives a voice on whether additional sexual partners sharing the home is a tolerable situation.
4. Women would be able to decide who they love for themselves.

Ooo, scary.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-09 11:09:12 AM|| 2004-09-09 11:09:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Ooo, Scary.
Islamists are terrified. This goes to the heart of the conflict between Islam and modernization. Are women (and their sexual favors) property or human beings with free will?

Posted by ed 2004-09-09 11:30:19 AM|| 2004-09-09 11:30:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Simple, ed: they're as free as we let them to be.

Posted by Osama bin Laid-in 2004-09-09 11:35:45 AM|| 2004-09-09 11:35:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 This goes to the heart of the conflict between Islam and modernization.

Morocco and Tunisia have made these changes, and yet are still muslim. Islamism != Islam.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-09 11:45:39 AM|| 2004-09-09 11:45:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 LH-When it comes to sharia, you'll be hard pressed to differentiate them. What I would like to know, LH, is why you never stand up in defence of women against the abuses of Islam. Over time, in several of your threads on this site, I've remarked a careful avoidance on your part on admitting that women are not treated well in Islam.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-09 12:13:29 PM|| 2004-09-09 12:13:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 LH, You sure about that? Or are the modernizers in Morocco and Tunisia ignoring the Quran?

Quran chapter 33:
1 O Prophet! Keep thy duty to Allah and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

30 O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.

32 O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech. And stay in your houses.

36 And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.

37 And when thou saidst unto him on whom Allah hath conferred favour and thou hast conferred favour: Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear Allah. And thou didst hide in thy mind that which Allah was to bring to light, and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah hath a better right that thou shouldst fear Him. So when Zeyd had performed that necessary formality (of divorce) from her, We gave her unto thee in marriage, so that (henceforth) there may be no sin for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have performed the necessary formality (of release) from them. The commandment of Allah must be fulfilled.

48 And incline not to the disbelievers and the hypocrites. Disregard their noxious talk, and put thy trust in Allah. Allah is sufficient as Trustee.

50 O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war

51 Thou canst defer whom thou wilt of them and receive unto thee whom thou wilt, and whomsoever thou desirest of those whom thou hast set aside (temporarily), it is no sin for thee (to receive her again); that is better; that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be pleased with what thou givest them. Allah knoweth what is in your hearts (O men), and Allah is ever Forgiving, Clement.

53 And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.

57 Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained.

59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

60-61 If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbours in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/33/index.html

Posted by ed 2004-09-09 12:30:35 PM|| 2004-09-09 12:30:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Keep 'em Burq'aed & Pregnant. God is TRULY great

Posted by BigEd 2004-09-09 12:53:30 PM|| 2004-09-09 12:53:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 #6 Theres no shortage of people here willing to point out anti-woman aspects of Islam. Whats not mentioned enough are the forces for change WITHIN Islam. The way to change Islam wrt women is to support education of muslim women, and to support those forces for change, not to rant on about how evil Islam is.

#7 I dont know how the modernizers in Morocco and Tunisia reconcile what they are doing with the Koran. I DO know that Christians who attempt to understand Jewish practice by reading what they call the Old Testament tend to have a very distorted view of Jewish life. Muslims, like Jews, have traditions of non-literal readings of their sacred texts, that make it possible to adapt to new conditions. Now Al Qaeeda and the other Salafist hate the non-literal approaches to Islamic law, and are quick to say that those who modernize have broken with Islam and become apostates. Interestingly the main viewpoint that agrees with the Salafists on that are the anti-Muslim voices here and elsewhere. You may think the Moroccans and Tunisians are no longer muslims, abd AQ certainly thinks they are no longer muslims, but AFAIK the Moroccans and Tunisians themselves think they ARE muslims, and so do most muslims around the world think the moroccans and tunisians (whether they agree with the reforms or not)

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-09 12:56:34 PM|| 2004-09-09 12:56:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Theres no shortage of people here willing to point out anti-woman aspects of Islam...

There is one rather shameful shortage-you. Your acquiesence is duly noted, LH.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-09 1:41:16 PM|| 2004-09-09 1:41:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Boys, boys ...

I don't have a problem with LiberalHawk's comments, and I'm comfortably certain he's as adament on the need for equal rights for women in every society as the rest of us are.

We all have a limited amount of time to write and to commit to weblogs. That LH hasn't written a treatise on the subject isn't a problem, for me at least.

Posted by Steve White 2004-09-09 1:44:43 PM|| 2004-09-09 1:44:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I am not certain of that at all, Steve. It doesn't take a treaty, or a deeply nuanced argument. A simple "women are treated poorly under Islamic law" would suffice. There is PLENTY of evidence for that, enough for a treatise. But a short sentence sticks in his throat, because he doesn't believe it. He must think injustices against women, in Islam OR OUT, are ok.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-09 1:52:50 PM|| 2004-09-09 1:52:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Sorry-that first instance should have read "treatise".

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-09 1:57:10 PM|| 2004-09-09 1:57:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I read an article in the WSJ a few weeks ago portraying a Moroccan woman, Ms. Skalli, either a former or current MP with a long history of fighting for women's rights in that country. The new king, Mhd. VI, has a hot young wife who has a degree in computers, and she is apparently the force behind the throne re women's rights. As a result, what Skalli had been asking for for ages re more equity in divorce, alimony, multiple wives, etc. was decreed by the king. But only after he had appointed a commission to study the matter. This commission had plenty of women and enlightened religious personalities. Hassan II's commission was only staffed with men of the strict interpretation school. In both cases, each party argued its point of view from an Islamic perspective, one liberal and the other conservative. The liberal one has won out. So here's an expample of a "within Islam" debate that has favored moderates. But for Rantburgers, don't expect a similar "within Islam" discussion re Palestine/Iraq/Israel/the Cowboy's WOT. Mrs. Mhd. VI doesn't rule the roost on Moroccan foreign policy and besides, I'm pretty sure she sees the world through Al-Jazeera eyes anyway.

Posted by chicago mike 2004-09-09 2:12:21 PM|| 2004-09-09 2:12:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Thank you for the WSJ info, Mike.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-09 2:14:32 PM|| 2004-09-09 2:14:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "women are treated poorly under Islamic law"
There I've said it and I feel better. Let's all line up in an orderly fashion and sign the pledge.

Put me down for apple pie too.

Posted by Shipman 2004-09-09 3:01:21 PM|| 2004-09-09 3:01:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Is lighthearted glibness about the mistreatment of women in as much poor taste as joking about Jews being beheaded? I am not Jewish, but I would say it is. Sometimes you have to fight for something you're NOT.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-09 3:21:05 PM|| 2004-09-09 3:21:05 PM|| Front Page Top

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