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2004-07-23 Afghanistan/South Asia
Blackening Islam: the crisis of expatriate Muslims
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Posted by Paul Moloney 2004-07-23 12:16:46 AM|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 How many Muslims have have been attacked in ALL Western countries vs. the Muslim attacks, murders, jailing on fake blasphemy charges of Christians in just shitty little Pakistan? How many Christians have been arrested for plotting to blow up buildings, airliners, bridges, mosques, sports stadiums? How many Muslims have been attacked in Mosques, cafes vs Christians in churches and clubs? How many Muslims were bombed on a train by Christians? FOAD Muslim pig.
Posted by ed 2004-07-23 12:37:58 AM||   2004-07-23 12:37:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Perhaps you should read the rest of the article.
Posted by Paul Moloney 2004-07-23 12:52:13 AM||   2004-07-23 12:52:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Paul,
I didn't see the second page. I only read the first page complaining how Muslims are being unfairly put down. And as you can guess, I have no sympathy left anymore for Muslim complaints, seething and crocodile tears. What Khaled Ahmed writes on the second page is on the right track. I was wrong to attack him.

As for immigrants, esp. Muslim, assimilate or be deported.
Posted by ed 2004-07-23 1:26:35 AM||   2004-07-23 1:26:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Still seems like a bunch of mezmeriazied lunatics!
Posted by Lucky 2004-07-23 2:09:34 AM||   2004-07-23 2:09:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 One simple question for Khaled: How many freaking Islamic fascists have you turned in today? If none, shut the hell up.
Posted by Capt America  2004-07-23 2:32:30 AM|| [http://captamerica.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-23 2:32:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I think the West’s impatience with Muslim Immigrants is a rational response to current events. Members of radical Islamic groups take advantage of the blessings of a liberal democracy to destroy the very institutions that offer them a better life than is available their own country. While the Muslims communities in whose midst these radicals operate are not willing in many cases to notify the authorities of their presence. This is the greatest mistake of the Muslim community. When the next large scale terrorist attack against the American homeland occurs peaceful Muslims may be tarred with the same brush as the Muslim terrorists. Why? Because, since 9/11 the Muslim community has not taken the opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty to their adoptive country and its ideals by purging the radicals from their Mosques.
Posted by Canaveral Dan 2004-07-23 7:47:11 AM||   2004-07-23 7:47:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 No sympathy here either. I will take issue with the idea that ehnic groups don't have to assimilate into American culture. No there is no law that they have to learn English, but if they don't they are hadicaping themselves in this country. they donlt have to shed their identity entirely but they have to become Americans first and then whatever subculture they want. Muslims want the protection of American cummunites but they don't return that by denouncing terrorism. They want it both ways and we are the ones that should adapt not them. Fat BLT chance.
Posted by Cyber Sarge  2004-07-23 7:52:12 AM||   2004-07-23 7:52:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Quoth Mr. Khaled Ahmed

Muslims cannot escape the responsibility of reform in their own religious attitudes. They have become intolerant at home and too aggressive in their host states

I don't think any Rantburger can take issue with that. On the other hand we all have different ideas on how to help Islam reform or even if reform is possible. Similarly we have different ideas on how to treat aggressive Islam in America.
Posted by mhw 2004-07-23 8:36:04 AM||   2004-07-23 8:36:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Other than Muslims, most (all?) ethnicities that settle in the USA tend to police themselves. Many Christians line up against extremist Christians. Jews tend to take all sorts of positions, from extremist liberal to neocon, arguing internally as well as publically. We can probably name groups and individuals in each group we hate, and agree with. There seems to be a sort of natural checks-and-balances system that emerges.

On the other hand, Muslims in the USA seem to at best, close ranks and remain mum in the face of their extremists. At worst, they are apologists and supporters.

There is something inherently different -- and dangerous -- about that culture.
Posted by PlanetDan 2004-07-23 8:51:30 AM||   2004-07-23 8:51:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Planet Dan,

What about blacks and Hispanics? The reaction to Bill Cosby's recent statements is proof that blacks have not self-policed their extreme elements.

It is indeed about culture. What these groups have in common is strong group self identification as victims. Until they start viewing themselves as individuals with control of their own destinies, things will not change much. Unfortunately, especially for Islam, this will take a lot of change, Allah willing.
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-07-23 9:49:37 AM||   2004-07-23 9:49:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 All we heard after 9/11 was how the West was ignorant of Islam, and that they we educate themselves.

Well? How do you like us now that we've studied you? Should have shut your mouths and left the planes alone. We see you now.
Posted by BH 2004-07-23 9:53:27 AM||   2004-07-23 9:53:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Mr. Davis

Speaking of groups that can't self police their extreme elements, would you say the Democratic Party qualifies?

Or are the extreme elements the mainstream?
Posted by mhw 2004-07-23 10:15:43 AM||   2004-07-23 10:15:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 From the Naturalization Act of 1795 (in response to the great comments by Canveral Dan and Cyber Sarge):

SECTION 1. BE it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, that any alien... may be admitted to become a citizen of the United States...First, he shall have declared, on oath or affirmation, before the Supreme, Superior, District, or Circuit Court of some one of the states...or a Circuit or District Court of the United States, three years at least before his admission, that it was, bona fide, his intention to become a citizen of the United States, and to renounce forever all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whereof such alien may at that time be a citizen or subject...that he will support the Constitution of the United States;...It shall further appear to their satisfaction that during that time he has behaved as a man of a good moral character, attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States, and well-disposed to the good order and happiness of the same...
Note-original lists eligible aliens as free white men (I am assuming this has been updated).
Note-Let's hope that "sovereignty" as used in this oath would include (renouncing) fealty to religious leaders.
Posted by jules 187 2004-07-23 10:39:30 AM||   2004-07-23 10:39:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 #10 - "It is indeed about culture . . ."

I agree, and it goes something like this:

Culture A (the West, namely USA) is rolling along.

Culture A welcomes members of Culture B (Moslems).

Culture A continues rolling along.

Certain members from Culture B decide to try and disrupt/weaken/destroy Culture A, while mainstream members of Culture B affirm through silence.

Culture A stops rolling along, and turns toward Culture B with ? ? ? marks.

Culture B remains silent.

Culture A studies Culture B.

Culture B continues to stand by its "fringe" members who are bent on damaging/destroying Culture A.

Culture A knows that not all members of Culture B are bad guys, but since mainstream Culture B members won't differentiate themselves from their own bad guys, Culture A has no choice but to be suspicious of all Culture B members.

Culture B's fringe members continue to make war on Culture A.

Culture A decides to affirm self-preservation, and begins to make ready for war against Culture B.

Culture B "mainstream" continues to remain silent regarding "fringe" members.

Culture A is finally forced to assume that Culture B and Culture B fringe members are identical.

Culture B bitches and moans because Culture A is isn't being as "nice" as they used to be.

Culture A doesn't care anymore, considers the criticism to be just another tactic of war, and begins to eliminate Culture B from its social/political/economic landscape.

Culture B mainstreatm members scream and accuse Culture A of unfair treatment, but fail to separate fringe Culture B elements--and in many instances cooperate with them and help them in their efforts against Culture A.

Culture A targets the threat and eventually succeeds against Culture B because Culture A is morally superior, more intelligent, and has bigger guns.

Culture B is diminished and slinks back to its putrid nether-world existence in home countries.

Culture A resumes rolling . . .

Posted by ex-lib 2004-07-23 10:52:10 AM||   2004-07-23 10:52:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Dang E lib that's the same way my dawg looks at fleas.
Posted by Shipman 2004-07-23 11:13:37 AM||   2004-07-23 11:13:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Don't forget the seething...
Posted by Sparks 2004-07-23 11:21:35 AM||   2004-07-23 11:21:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Can your average Muslim tell the difference between a Wahhabi preacher and a Suffi preacher or are they mindless automatons. If they stopped allowing Wahhabi preachers to take over mosques and preach hate there would be less Muslim terrorists in the west (and everywhere) and less problems for the rest of the Muslims.

Clean up your own house or we will burn it down.
Posted by Yank 2004-07-23 11:26:11 AM|| [http://politicaljunky.blogspot.com]  2004-07-23 11:26:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 ex-lib

but Culture A is not monolithic; there are people in Culture A who actively are anti-A, people who are willing to be allies of culture B for various reasons, people who desire peace so much they support appeasement, people who are so multicultural they can't believe that anyone in B is really evil, people with grievences against corporations in A, etc. -- these groups may win an election someday
Posted by mhw 2004-07-23 11:33:50 AM||   2004-07-23 11:33:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 mhw,

Yes and yes. The Democrats have become the party of the victim. It is going to be interesting to see if they can resist the urge to adopt Muslims as a victim group for whom to run extortion scams to represent.

ex-lib

Agreed. It is interesting that another religious minority was locked out of the American power structure and discriminated against until it was agreed by all that it would play by the rules of the American culture. Unfortunately, as this post and comments indicate, some haven't found out about that settlement yet. Let's hope it doesn't take as long for the Moslems.

Fianlly, the Wahabbi's take over the mosques because they've got the money. Where, oh where do they get it?
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-07-23 12:43:51 PM||   2004-07-23 12:43:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 mhw: " Culture A is not monolithic."

True. The anti-A's in Culture A, are actually part of the Culture B cohort, and it's frightening to think that we have a Culture B candidate running for office this election. And Culture B and their friends are bound to attract more to their side--what with every the conservative talk show host demonizing every officer of the court because of the bad ones. The Republicans blithely follow the same reasoning the liberals used regarding the Abu G prison scandal: "all military personel are bad." Or what about basing one's view of politics on Bill Clinton: "all American presidents are womanizing, irresponsible, corrupt, dangerous traitors."

So Kerry and Bush are running neck-and-neck. What do the mainstay Culture A people expect? If idiot conservatives are going to attack the legal system we have because of the failures present in it (at times), let's just do it across the board:

No more dentists
No more doctors
No more columnists or journalists
No more internet blogs
No more military
No more executive branch of government
No more teachers
No more car mechanics
No more movies or music
No more lawyers
No more rule of law
No more Catholic priests
No more pro football players
No more drivers of SUV automobiles

Sounds more and more like an Islamic world to me . . .

The all-out attack on trial attorneys this year, really amazes me. I guess the hundreds of years of common law that produced the foundation for the origins of the Constitution and Bill of Rights which protect the people's right to counsel, the people's right to trial by a jury of one's peers, the people's right to sound legal advice and analysis is JUST BUNK! Fuck 'em all! The founding fathers didn't know what they were doing. Dumb-shits. Let's just protect special interests, especially insurance business interests ourselves, and do away with these unecessary, pesky trial lawyers. Hell--I'm sure I'll never need one. And neither will you. We have so evolved as a society and as individuals, that we simply don't need them anymore. Now, every one will do the right thing and abide by the law because it's the nice thing to do.

Or at the very least, lets get some tort reform going. I mean, it isn't the fault of businessmen if they make bad investments that hurt their multi-billion dollar/year insurance organizations, and don't want to cover their insured clients because it cuts into profit. Hell no! Look--if some rat's ass doctor is out partying the night before my operation and fucks me up so that I'm in chronic pain, can't speak, can't have sex, am tube-fed, can't clean myself, and can no longer work, a mere $250,000 for the rest of my life should cover it just fine. Cheaper for the insurance companies, I can tell you that! And since I'm a conservative Republican capitalist, I gotta do my "duty" to the system and suck it up. Cap the awards, I say! The jury doesn't know it's head from a hole in the ground anyway. I trust the insurance companies that make up pretty true-sounding stories about rip-off clients and bad lawyers (which are never in the court records--minor detail) and lobby the Republicans into a "tort reform" swan song, and I trust the judges. They can decide for me. They can decide my fate.

Whether we're Culture A or Culture B, it looks like, one way or another, we're handing our world to the jihadis on a silver platter--one little parcel at a time. And it kinda makes it hard to know who to vote for, too: Do I vote for Kerry and contibute to the preservation of the people's right to legal help as our conservative (isn't that a trip) system intended--and screw everything else, OR, do I vote for Bush and contribute to destroying the best legal system in the world which keeps our culture intact?

A tough question for an ex-liberal like me.

Joe Islamic: "American lawyers are bad when they're not helping my cause. They are corrupt. Sharia law will save us and line my pockets. Islamic culture is superior. You will see. Vote for Kerry."

Joe Insurance: "American lawyers are bad when they're not helping my cause. They are corrupt. Tort "reform" will save us and line my pockets. Business culture is superior. You will see. Vote for Bush."

Evil is evil. And I hate being forced to choose between them because my culture is at stake. (And you thought I was off topic.)

Posted by ex-lib 2004-07-23 1:36:05 PM||   2004-07-23 1:36:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 The reaction to Bill Cosby's recent statements is proof that blacks have not self-policed their extreme elements.

Wrong. This is, in fact, a great example of what I mean. It is exactly what a group does to self-police. They challenge each other. They debate. They air their dirty laundry. And hopefully, "right" will prevail.

But the Muslim community is deafeningly silent. The only voices I hear are groups like CAIR, blaming others (Joooooos) and explaining away the actions of their own.
Posted by PlanetDan 2004-07-23 1:40:49 PM||   2004-07-23 1:40:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Ex-lib, like any business there are good players and bad players. Hell, it goes way beyond business of course, right back to culture A & B. Same thing for the plaintiffs bar. It has excesses. I assume you are a trial lawyer given your strong defense of same. I'm surprised that you can't admit that the excesses exist and are having a negative effect on our society. You sound like...oh yeah, the Muslims who can never admit that they or anyone/anything about their religion are wrong.
Posted by remote man 2004-07-23 1:46:04 PM||   2004-07-23 1:46:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Muslim religous culture has enormous problems holding critical dialog. It seems to be hardwired to escalate discordant views to the level of death threats. V.S. Naipaul referred to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie as "an extreme form of literary criticism". Sensible people are going to be very reluctant to stick their heads too far above the parapet in that environment. The fact that so few Muslims in the west are willing to protest radical Islam suggests the level of intimidation is extremely high and/or the sympathy very deep. Either way, I don't see how you can avoid the conclusion that the whole show is stuck in the dark ages.
Posted by Classical_Liberal 2004-07-23 3:15:43 PM||   2004-07-23 3:15:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 The all-out attack on trial attorneys this year, really amazes me.

Why? We deserve it.
Posted by AzCat 2004-07-23 4:06:54 PM||   2004-07-23 4:06:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Planet Dan,

I agree things are changing for the black community, but Cosby said little that Daniel Patrick Moynihan did not 40 years ago. Since DuBois prevailed over Washington, few blacks have had the courage to say what Cosby did and those who have have been marginalized. Only a black of Cosby's stature and maturity could say these things without fear of retribution. Kweisi Mfume said of Cosby, "'A lot of people didn't want him to say what he said because it was an open forum. But if the truth be told, he was on target."

So culture in the black community is beginning to change. But changing culture is a very slow process and while their will continue to adapt, blacks are decades ahead of where the Muslims in the US are now.
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-07-23 4:28:44 PM||   2004-07-23 4:28:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 The big problem is that Islam itself has made it all but impossible for Islam to change, even when it's fundamentally obvious that it needs to. There are parts of the Quran that are blatantly contradictory. There are parts of the Quran that any person with an IQ above the freezing point of water would have to question. But it's blasphemy to even THINK of questioning ANYTHING that's in the Quran. Mohammed, according to Islam, is the LAST Prophet - God CAN'T send another one - that would invalidate all of Islam. That in itself is proof enough to me that Islam is a fraud - God limiting Himself that severely. The entire Quran is full of such contradictions - as well as a constant effort to consciously refute every word in the Jewish Bible - God doesn't change His Mind that drastically, not after being internally consistent for more than 3000 years. Until the Muslim community takes a serious look at what they're reading, actually seriously studies what they profess to believe, and accept that there are some totally bizarre, faith-destroying passages in their "holy of holies", they will never be taken seriously by intellectually honest people.
Posted by Old Patriot  2004-07-23 10:17:45 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm]  2004-07-23 10:17:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Ex-Lib, I've been on both sides of that issue. The answer is in the middle. And It needs to happen.
Posted by Lucky 2004-07-23 11:10:30 PM||   2004-07-23 11:10:30 PM|| Front Page Top

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