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2004-07-06 Home Front: WoT
America’s Growing Culture of Hate
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Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-07-06 6:07:47 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Not all 'slims are terrorists, but so far, all of the terrorists have been 'slims.

The 'slims aught to worry about their own terror flock before worrying that we are upset that they are a bunch of murdering drones for muhammud the child molester/prophet.
Posted by Victory Now Please 2004-07-06 8:30:26 AM||   2004-07-06 8:30:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Linda also writes for whacko leftist Alexander Cockburn's Counterpunch.Org - Google her for a taste of her antiwestern venom
Posted by Frank G  2004-07-06 8:35:33 AM||   2004-07-06 8:35:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 8:57:39 AM||   2004-07-06 8:57:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 9:10:20 AM||   2004-07-06 9:10:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Antisemite--

You left out khalifah.com and nazi.org. Jew-hatred makes you very very hot doesn't it Antisemite?
Posted by BMN 2004-07-06 9:16:02 AM||   2004-07-06 9:16:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I guess its to bad for you no one cares what you think Anti whore
Posted by JerseyMike 2004-07-06 9:17:02 AM||   2004-07-06 9:17:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 9:22:55 AM||   2004-07-06 9:22:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Do you even bother denying that your list of websites is full of Jew-haters?

Tell us, the Israelis carried out 9-11 didn't they?
Posted by BMN 2004-07-06 9:25:16 AM||   2004-07-06 9:25:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 9:27:37 AM||   2004-07-06 9:27:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 PLEASE IGNORE THIS TRIPE. I do not come to this site to read crap from these moonbats. Much less watch intelligent people implode responding to them. If I want to suffer this madness I need only wach CNN. Please do not respond to these assmuzzles. They want only to side track us. It is childish and a waste of Fred's bandwidth. Besides, .com has threatened to stop giving tech advise (no really, I read it here last night! Yoo, Hoo!).
Posted by Dragon Fly  2004-07-06 9:30:05 AM||   2004-07-06 9:30:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 DF--

You're right. Sorry.

Have fun, Antisemite.
Posted by BMN 2004-07-06 9:34:32 AM||   2004-07-06 9:34:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 9:37:29 AM||   2004-07-06 9:37:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Also left out almuhajiroun.com. What, account has been suspended? Forgot to pay the light bill?
Posted by ed 2004-07-06 9:40:04 AM||   2004-07-06 9:40:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 You are forgetting your manners, Antiwar dear. At this rate you'll never become a lady.

Oh, and if you want to know what effective Jew haters sound like, go read "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler (it is available in translation for those whose German is a bit weak) and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" by the Imperial Russian version of the KGB. I'm sure you can order copies from all the sites you listed above.

But you definitely need to finish reading your etiquette book first, dear. Business before pleasure, you know.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 9:58:20 AM||   2004-07-06 9:58:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Hi AntiWar!
Study up on the Rothschildt Conspiracy, it allows me to hate jews without being antisemitic! It's complicated but well worth the time as it will do away with any latent guilt feelings you have towards your glorious hate.
Posted by Juniefer 2004-07-06 10:04:25 AM||   2004-07-06 10:04:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 "Islam does not allow representations of either human or animal form whether depicted in paintings or sculpture. This is why the interiors of mosques are simple, decorated only with geometric patterns and calligraphic designs"

He then pointed to a giant poster of Al-Sadr and said "Our great leader would agree".
Posted by Johnnie Bartlette 2004-07-06 10:14:18 AM||   2004-07-06 10:14:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 10:21:52 AM||   2004-07-06 10:21:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 A little perspective is always good; so, IMO, Antiwar is a fake -- s/he pretends to be a nice, concerned liberal, but s/he gets real nasty when support for islamofascists (including undermining Western society and values) is confronted too directly. So as not to waste bandwidth, you can read the Same Story, Different Day -- right here in a previous thread.
Posted by cingold 2004-07-06 10:27:23 AM||   2004-07-06 10:27:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 10:30:00 AM||   2004-07-06 10:30:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Because you're screwed up, that's why.
Posted by Dave D. 2004-07-06 10:37:53 AM||   2004-07-06 10:37:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 hi antiwar! :)
how are you are doing today. have you ever hear of virginia company conspiracy?
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 10:40:28 AM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 10:40:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 10:43:00 AM||   2004-07-06 10:43:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Take it to a motel, children.
Posted by .com 2004-07-06 10:44:17 AM||   2004-07-06 10:44:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 F*O*A*D, antiwar-whore. Nobody gives a rats ass what you believe.
Posted by Crusader 2004-07-06 10:47:40 AM||   2004-07-06 10:47:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Antiwar,
I'm sure you aren't aware of the source of your opinions. That is why I recommend that you read the real thing to understand why all here have labelled you as such. Hitler was renowned for his kindness to children and dogs, he was vegetarian, didn't smoke or drink, was concerned about the environment, and worked very hard to ensure that his people lived comfortable and secure lives, and were enabled to achieve their full potential.

I look forward to hearing from you after you've read "Mein Kampf" and the Protocols.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 10:49:00 AM||   2004-07-06 10:49:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 10:58:17 AM||   2004-07-06 10:58:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Read: uninformed isolated mindless drivel. A vacuum to hold the vacuous.

Stop feeding this troll, please. Move along, folks.
Posted by .com 2004-07-06 10:59:52 AM||   2004-07-06 10:59:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 CAIR has a long history of omitting the entire story. One need only look up and read the actual comments of Jay, Dr. Laura and Dr. Pipes to know what was actually said. CAIR doesn't speak of the supposed "hate crimes" supposedly committed against muslims that have turned out to be hoaxes perpetrated by muslims themselves.
There have been a number of prominent muslims who have themselves proclaimed their desire to see the U.S. under the caliphate...Yahiya Emerick, Siraj Wahhaj...
Posted by jawa 2004-07-06 11:11:40 AM||   2004-07-06 11:11:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 The Professional Victim line is over there. But it's very long, so be prepared to wait.
Posted by tu3031 2004-07-06 11:30:49 AM||   2004-07-06 11:30:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 antiwar the virginia company conspiracy is say the united states not realy is itn own country but is own by the virginia company of england. they are also own the irs and federal reserve. which branch of goverment is control the irs? none. itn privately owned hit squad.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 11:31:03 AM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 11:31:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Antiwar,

Until you've done the research, your opinions are necessarily uniformed drivel, no matter how heartfelt. You'll notice that Rantburg's respected posters actually know what they are talking about.

If you don't want to actually fund the haters, you can read the recommended texts at http://www.magister.msk.ru/library/politica/hitla002.htm and http://ddickerson.igc.org/protocols.html I imagine you'll be surprised at how closely your opinions match those in the texts.

But, unless you are willing to do the work to inform yourself, Fred would be well advised to ban you for the troll you choose to be.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 11:36:05 AM||   2004-07-06 11:36:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 antiwar is need to read up on rothschild consperacy to.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 11:43:49 AM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 11:43:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 11:50:58 AM||   2004-07-06 11:50:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 muslims are dirty, filthy, fucking trash. All muslims should be beheaded, then piss down their throat.....simple as that.
Posted by Halfass Pete 2004-07-06 11:54:19 AM||   2004-07-06 11:54:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 12:01:11 PM||   2004-07-06 12:01:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Antiwar,
Your consideration is worth nothing until you actually do the research to determine whether I am right or wrong. I never suggested that you support GWB or the U.S, or even Israel.

And, unless your IQ measures Genius, my brain is potentially more effective than yours -- as in so many other things, it isn't size that matters (see brain, Anatole France, et al).
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 12:10:03 PM||   2004-07-06 12:10:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 I like Counterpunch.

Too bad, like Antiwar (does that mean "antiwar" == pro-stupid?), it doesn't provide much of one.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-07-06 12:14:12 PM||   2004-07-06 12:14:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 12:21:16 PM||   2004-07-06 12:21:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 hmmmm. i am hope pete in just joking.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 12:30:32 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 12:30:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Antiwar,

I'm afraid there isn't any connection between eidetic-type memory, such as yours, and absolute intelligence, which is about the ability to understand and manipulate various kinds of information in context -- separate from emotion and intention, or including both as simply factors. However, it can be helpful in that you'll only once have to read the information on the sites I've given in order to be able to think about it.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 12:41:20 PM||   2004-07-06 12:41:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 I'm sorry to say, muck, that Pete probably isn't joking and neither is Antiwar.

Antiwar, while I do not agree with the sort of hostility being shown to you here, I do understand why people are so frustrated with you. The extent of atrocities committed by Islamist fanatics obliges me to view all militant jihadis as merely a new form of Nazi. You claim to disagree with Nazi mentality but fail to realize how so many people equate their hatred of the Jews with Nazi genocide. There is ample proof of Arab admiration for Hitler. You may wish to reconsider your position regarding support for any organization that promotes terrorism or anti-Semitism. Due to previous demonstrations of opacity upon your own part, Antiwar, I regret to say that any follow-up posts to this one will be unlikely.
Posted by Zenster 2004-07-06 12:52:54 PM||   2004-07-06 12:52:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 However I can remember whole scenes from movies after seeing them once for example.

How, err, useful.

However, it can be helpful in that you'll only once have to read the information on the sites I've given in order to be able to think about it.

"You can always lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-07-06 12:56:19 PM||   2004-07-06 12:56:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Antiwar,

Since you don't have a good understanding of comments made in English, try Indonesian:
Kamu tidak mempunyai hikmat, saja karena kamu orang bodoh. Kamu orang bodoh karena kamu membenci agama Keristen dan peradaban Barat yang tumbuh dari agama perdamaian itu. Karena kebencianmu, kamu belum pernah tersadar bahwa kamu tetap aman dan bebas hanya karena kebudayaan yang kamu membenci.
G'day!
Posted by cingold 2004-07-06 1:02:54 PM||   2004-07-06 1:02:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 1:07:36 PM||   2004-07-06 1:07:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Hey, Antiwar, "membaca apa aku tulis." But, more importantly, those who don't know about you (yet) can read the Same Story, Different Day -- right here in a previous thread.
Posted by cingold 2004-07-06 1:12:36 PM||   2004-07-06 1:12:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 1:16:05 PM||   2004-07-06 1:16:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Antiwar would have others believe that Iraq was a peaceful place before the Americans came. She is right with respect to Hillah. Bremer visited there before he left and reminisced about the quiet countryside with an old friend:

"I visited this when I first came here," Bremer said.

"This lady, this poor lady came to every grave," said Qizwini, pointing to a photo of a woman in an abaya sitting, her arms reaching forward over a mound of earth. "At each excavation she would sit by the grave and say, 'Is this my son? Is this my son?' and no one answered her."

Qizwini started to move on, but Bremer slowed him. "Did she ever find her son?" he asked.

"No, she did not," Qizwini answered.

I suspect that Antiwar is pining the loss of her soulmate - Dr Jim Cairns a man who worked for in the interest of the Australian people ... as long as those interests didn't conflict with those of his Soviet masters.
Posted by Super Hose 2004-07-06 1:17:31 PM||   2004-07-06 1:17:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 CAIR seems awful sensitive about mean words uttered by Americans. Have they made a policy statement about the enslavement and machete killings of Christians and Animists in Dafur?
Posted by Super Hose 2004-07-06 1:20:03 PM||   2004-07-06 1:20:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Anti-War

See if you are true to your principles: replace Zionism (support for the Jewish nation) with Jihadism (support for the Islamic nation) in your own sentence:

However I am opposed to jihadism as a policy whose aim is to turn Islam from a religion to a political entity.

Still wrong, or only wrong when it involves Jews?

Posted by jules 187 2004-07-06 1:22:20 PM||   2004-07-06 1:22:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 1:41:41 PM||   2004-07-06 1:41:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Antiwar, what do you actually support? Are you a WPC flunky? Why do you support the quiet of a regime that populated 500,000 graves with corpses that have bullet holes through their cerebrums? Are you going to paint Iran as a liberal democracy as well? Couldn't you join HRW watch and at least condemn the Mullahs, Sadaams, little Kims et. al. even though they don't agree with taking action against benign leaders like Pol Pot. Is there an Islamic or leftist thug that you are willing to say some mean stuff about?
Posted by Super Hose 2004-07-06 2:03:40 PM||   2004-07-06 2:03:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 No Superhose,

But Ghazi Khankan, NY Chapter head of CAIR has circulated a petition condemning the damaging of mosques in Iraq. No petitions condemning brutal beheadings of innocent non-muslims, massacres in the Sudan, etc...
Posted by jawa 2004-07-06 2:19:22 PM||   2004-07-06 2:19:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 I'll give this some credence after the beheading of the third muslim kidnap victim in the US. Until then it's just agitprop crap.
Posted by RWV 2004-07-06 2:27:49 PM||   2004-07-06 2:27:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 I'm not sure why everyone's been taking the bait from this dumb anti-semitic crack.....
Posted by Frank G  2004-07-06 2:27:59 PM||   2004-07-06 2:27:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Ah, but Antiwar, Israel is a secular country. Religion is not taught in the public schools, being Jewish is not a requirement for full citizenship rights, religious law does not supercede secular law -- not even for those who are Jewish. For many there Judaism follows Sartre's definition, and has little or nothing to do with religious practice.

Go do your homework. Until that's done, you are not qualified to have an opinion.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 2:31:44 PM||   2004-07-06 2:31:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Frank,
We keep on in the hope that she is capable of learning. Look how far Mucky has come from the first time he posted here. Now he is positively likable!
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 2:34:22 PM||   2004-07-06 2:34:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 His syntax is somewhat better, too. Some days he's darn-near lucid...
Posted by BH 2004-07-06 2:43:39 PM||   2004-07-06 2:43:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 all this bandwith on this idiot anitwar...
Posted by Dan 2004-07-06 2:44:04 PM||   2004-07-06 2:44:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 2:52:00 PM||   2004-07-06 2:52:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Why is everyone wasting their breath on this ignorant threadjacker?
Posted by Raj  2004-07-06 2:56:48 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com]  2004-07-06 2:56:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 2:59:05 PM||   2004-07-06 2:59:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 That's because you're ignorant...
Posted by Raj  2004-07-06 3:03:49 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com]  2004-07-06 3:03:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Antiwar,

Have you ever done anything to remedy the situation of millions of Africans displaced out of their lands or being killed? Have you ever done anything for the hundreds of South Americans Indians being killed and their habitat destroyed? Have you even foster a child in need? Have you ever done anything tangible for another human being?
Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-07-06 3:07:23 PM||   2004-07-06 3:07:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 3:20:00 PM||   2004-07-06 3:20:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 #64 Anon4617 I care for people with severe and profound intellectually disabilities.

Waiting for a wisecrack in 4...3...2...

(Sorry for the waste of bandwidth, but this one was screaming for it.)
Posted by Zenster 2004-07-06 3:34:43 PM||   2004-07-06 3:34:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Antiwar is Christian, but she doesn't believe in the Trinity. Enuf said. Neeeext.
Posted by Rafael 2004-07-06 3:37:35 PM||   2004-07-06 3:37:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Hi again AntiWar!
Don't apologize for hating jews, or kikes, they are not real jews they are zionists pigs!

Learn to embrace your hate and your hate will set you free.

We are hoping you are having a very good summer and have lots of good books to read.

See ya next time!
Ciaco!

Posted by Juniefer 2004-07-06 3:40:00 PM||   2004-07-06 3:40:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 rafael ima believe antiwar is hand out watchtower magazines. she is not like birthday cakes to.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 3:40:16 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 3:40:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 We thank you for your job AntiWar! I over ran that post! Thank you for taking care of the weak minded and loose limbed! You are a national treasure and should be treated as such.
Posted by Juniefer 2004-07-06 3:41:38 PM||   2004-07-06 3:41:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 What Juneifer and Antiwar are saying-we hate Zionists but not Jews-is that Jews can live, as long as they don't do it in a country.
Posted by jules 187 2004-07-06 3:46:25 PM||   2004-07-06 3:46:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 I care for people with severe and profound intellectually (sic) disabilities.

That would explain 99+% of your posts...

You are a national treasure and should be treated as such.

Yes. Buried treasure.
Posted by Raj  2004-07-06 4:00:25 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com]  2004-07-06 4:00:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 I believe in the trinity, I just don't believe in Christianity
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:04:15 PM||   2004-07-06 4:04:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 4:05:17 PM||   2004-07-06 4:05:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 and stuff...sorry my burqa slipped
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:05:23 PM||   2004-07-06 4:05:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 antiwar is wear em burkas? antiwar i am thinking .com is maybe have a pichure of you. :)
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 4:13:38 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 4:13:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Oh Mucky, you devil! That was me, maybe 4000 Vegamite sandwiches ago
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:19:42 PM||   2004-07-06 4:19:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 4:20:06 PM||   2004-07-06 4:20:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 4:21:52 PM||   2004-07-06 4:21:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 ohhhh, but I love pork
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:23:04 PM||   2004-07-06 4:23:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 and Cap Locks
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:23:49 PM||   2004-07-06 4:23:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 "...the US is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Afghans..."

Where do these asshats get these totally inaccurate figures? This "writer" is a real nutjob.
Posted by Anonymous5430 2004-07-06 4:25:16 PM||   2004-07-06 4:25:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 nic stealing in not good debate.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 4:25:55 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 4:25:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 4:26:31 PM||   2004-07-06 4:26:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 Oops! I forgot Trailing Wife's advice...again
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:30:58 PM||   2004-07-06 4:30:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 4:32:12 PM||   2004-07-06 4:32:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 damn this Tourette's!
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:33:30 PM||   2004-07-06 4:33:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 waste of bandwidth
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-07-06 4:38:13 PM||   2004-07-06 4:38:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 #70, already happened: Rhodesians are ok, if they dont have a country. (They don't have a country, and they're not ok).

And so, on to Antiwar: You mongrel, normally, I dont take the bait, but you really must google blood-diamonds/mugabe/congo, sudan+rape, nigeria+church-burnings, milf. Your low paid heart will go out to these people, I'm sure, as long as it is allowed to beat.

PIGFUCKINGBURQASTEALINGDOG!!!! LOLOLOL
Posted by rhodesiafever 2004-07-06 4:39:03 PM||   2004-07-06 4:39:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 asinine dog are get lucky now and then.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 4:42:06 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 4:42:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 with pigs, apparently! Who'da thunk it?
Posted by Frank G  2004-07-06 4:56:22 PM||   2004-07-06 4:56:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 Rhodesians are ok, if they don't have a country. (They don't have a country, and they're not ok).

Not sure if my sarcasm on #70 got through-note "live" versus "have" in #88. Anyway, rhodesiafever, you make the point more directly.
Posted by jules 187 2004-07-06 5:04:21 PM||   2004-07-06 5:04:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 No one will ever accuse you of excessive wit, Antiwar.
Posted by Raj  2004-07-06 5:11:13 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com]  2004-07-06 5:11:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#93 Linda Heard is just a dhimmi on the dole.
I often wonder how much Saudi pays her.
Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-07-06 5:13:23 PM||   2004-07-06 5:13:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#94 Ooooh...AntiSemite venturing deeply into Troll territory!
Her Mooooooslim boyfriend must be unhappy with the recent turn of events and has cut off her sexual favors.
Posted by Jen  2004-07-06 5:16:40 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-07-06 5:16:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 How is it when i see 93 to over hundred comments I know its either Aris or Anti-Idiot. :)
Posted by djohn66 2004-07-06 5:23:44 PM||   2004-07-06 5:23:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 " do not support terrorism especially State Terrorism as practiced by Israel and the USA. "
There you have in Anti twits own words.
In other words you support Muslems blowing-up busses,cutting off the heads of infidels,and flying passenger jets into skyscrapers.

Explain to me how you can be a Christian and not believe in the Holy Trinity.
The father,The Son,and the Holy Ghost.
Posted by Raptor 2004-07-06 5:39:07 PM||   2004-07-06 5:39:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#97 Aris is entertaining and lucid, if often wrong. This poor chile is just running from a beating evidently.
Posted by Shipman 2004-07-06 6:13:36 PM||   2004-07-06 6:13:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#98 Antiwar has quite the potty mouth.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-07-06 6:55:56 PM||   2004-07-06 6:55:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#99 it in looking like antiwar is go bye bye. dam! ima had wanted ask her if she is wear her burka when she is work.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-07-06 7:04:06 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2004-07-06 7:04:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#100 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-06 9:23:30 PM||   2004-07-06 9:23:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#101 Well, there's your chance, Mucky. I'd hurry it up though.
Posted by tu3031 2004-07-06 9:29:49 PM||   2004-07-06 9:29:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#102 sounds like anti just needs a good shag.....the ugly macho man rears his head again bwhahaha.....
Posted by Jarhead 2004-07-06 9:31:55 PM||   2004-07-06 9:31:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#103 I have the impression that no-one is still talking about the original subject.

It is a fact that all over the world, as well in America as in Europe where I live, anti-islamism is growing at a high speed. Its quite terrifying to see that happening, certainly when this happens because of misinformation of the public. Many quotes out of the Koran are ripped out of their context and misinterpreted, there is a very strong focus on anything that is islamic. Certainly when it comes to small criminality. The image of the islam is mayorly deformed. I've visited many islamic countries in NGO-operations, and from my personal experience I can guarantee that most of the inhabitants over there are not as demonic as they are depicted by mainly american and/or republic press. The problem is the fact that there are many different types of moslims: sunites, sjiites,... of which only a few are radical jihadists.

In Belgium where I live, and in other European countries, there have recently been some attacks against jewish people (mostly sephardic jews). There have also been attacks against moslims in refugee-camps in our country. Many of these attacks have been investigated and turn out to be people's attacks against anything that is 'not like us'.

As a psychotherapist in our metropole Antwerp I have the occasion to encounter people of many origins and religions (jews, belgians, turkish, moslims, christians, albanians, serbo-kroats,... you name it) and most of the have the same problem: they can't get along with people who aren't like them, don't think like them, dress like them, live like them, have the same habits,... Calling this fascism is quite a bit childish and short-sighted. And it also hasn't got anything to do with zionism or jihadism. Those are terms which only apply for an isolated minority of complete idiots. The problem is more fundamental. Maybe you could call it 'proto-fascism', as Slavoj Žižek does, a reputed philospher/lacanian psychoanalyst/sociologist. Proto-fascism is something that lives in everyone of us, and serves our need to surviving and selfrespect. In some situations it can grow to completely fascistic proportions, no matter what race, nationality or religion you have. Mostly these fascistic tendencies seem to arise, as I can see it with my patients, when they have gotten used to the luxury of live and suddenly the economy is taking a free fall, and they are afraid to lose these luxuries again.

I guess this is correct for America as well as for Europe.

reading suggestion: Slavoj Žižek. Multiculturalism, or The Cultural Logic of Multinational Capitalism
New Left Review 225, Sept.-Oct., pp 28-51.

Greetings and good night!
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-06 10:12:39 PM||   2004-07-06 10:12:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#104 well, that was interesting, but in denial
Posted by Frank G  2004-07-06 10:31:15 PM||   2004-07-06 10:31:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#105 And as for the article on top, I'm afraid it's not so incorrect: My mother, who is a native belgian and now has the american identity (and owns a belgian chocolate-shop in florida :-) ) is quite shocked by the way Americans treat muslims. She herself is a caucasian christioan, but whe've always learned to respect and tolerate other people. She's quite often witness of strongly irrational overreactions out of fear against muslims. Some people at the cash-desks offend muslims or anything that doesn't look white, or they don't want to be of service to them in the supermarket. A friend of hers, a person from india who didn't seem to have the right color and 'might have been a muslim' has been apprehended and she's been interrogated about her 'connection' with this 'possible terrorist'. Every time there's a hockey-match in the ice-rink where quite a lot of people meet, let's say, 10,000 at most ('might be a perfect target for a terrorist'), everyone is searched for weapons, and cops hold surveillance over the surrounding area, because 'from up that hill over there, well that might be a good spot to launch some mortar-bombs. You never now, maybe we should secure that part too...'.

Have Americans become completely paranoid?
At first sight it seem to be like that.

In belgium we're not so afraid: we've just had a gigantic rock fesival called Rock Werchter, 250,000 people from all over Europe united for 5 days of love, peace and music on a field just under the busiest flight-route of airplanes heading for our national airport. Do you think there was even the tiniest security measure? We just say: let's party and don't be afraid. In Spain, just the same mentality, even after those awful metro-bombings.

Just don't die of paranoia folks !


Send in the Haldoperidol ;-) (just kidding)

Finally goodnight

+tba
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-06 10:33:04 PM||   2004-07-06 10:33:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#106 #104 well, that was interesting, but in denial
Posted by: Frank G

what do you mean by this? I do know the word denial, but I'm wondering what part I'm denying. I also know that there are many problems with people of any nationality in any country, and I do recall the awful harm done by muslim-terrorists at 9/11, which cannot be excused. What part am I missing here ?
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-06 10:36:35 PM||   2004-07-06 10:36:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#107 If you've followed the postings (and comments) here - there's no effort by muslim populations to disown the actions of their extremists, simply because the Quran allows, facilitates, and justifies the outrages. Ever heard of the Caliphate? Ivory Tower education I'd guess....prove me wrong, or accept the dhimmitude...ever heard that phrase?
Posted by Frank G  2004-07-06 10:44:02 PM||   2004-07-06 10:44:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#108 We just say: let's party and don't be afraid.

Funny, they said the same thing in the Weimar Republic days .
Posted by Pappy 2004-07-06 11:34:53 PM||   2004-07-06 11:34:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#109 Dear Mr/Ms Black Albino,

From what I've seen, prior to 9/11 there was little to no anti-muslim prejudice in the States, in contrast to what I saw in Europe; rather, in general people were welcoming and curious, at least here in the Midwest. After 9/11, for example, my children's elementary school invited a representative of the local mosque to speak to the parents, at which time the rep. followed a brief but interesting history of Islam with a series of vicious lies about Jews and Israel.

Naturally, I was shocked by her words, and started doing some research. I discovered the website of MEMRI.org, which translates speeches/articles/op-eds, etc. from the Arabic. I started reading the Arab News (Saudi Arabia), the Daily Star (Lebanon), the Jerusalem Post (Israel), and revisited some of the newspapers I'd read when we lived in Frankfurt and Brussels.

As result of my reading I moved from shocked to appalled. These people -- not all of them, perhaps not even most, but enough -- not only actively wish us ill, but have been working for two decades to achieve it. 9/11 is only the most recent successful attack against the States, as 3/11 is the most recent against Europe. And, very few of the rest have publically risen up on their hind legs to denounce the violence, or the attitude that engenders such violence.

At the same time, while the majority of the Jewish population of France (ie the native Ashkenazis as well as the Sephardis) is either seriously considering, or actively working toward, moving out of the country, Jacques Chirac loudly denounced the possibility that France has an antisemitism problem -- its just that some denizens of the suburbs are working out their undertandible anger about the unresolved Palestine problem. Similarly, the tide of anti-American rhetoric has risen consistently across Western Europe, or perhaps like antisemitism it is now acceptable to say openly what has always been thought.

I suspect that my passage is fairly typical, given the number of hits Fred gets on this site every day. With a few trollish exceptions,the readers want to know what these people are saying amongst themselves when they don't think we are listening -- not to mention the helpful analysis of the resident experts.

July 4th as our Independence Day, and my family joined a crowd of perhaps 8,000 listening to Styx and watching the fireworks. Security guards did search all bags and coolers -- ostensibly for glass bottles -- and armed police officers circulated through the crowd. And, nothing bad happened.

Are we as a nation paranoid? Well, some really bad people declared war on us, and followed up that declaration with 9/11. We know from the number of arrests, here and throughout the world, that they are still trying. We know from the dead and injured bodies that they are succeeding, as well. So our approach can be more correctly described as realistic.

Those bad people did not just declare war on the U.S., though. They declared war against the entire western world -- where you live, too. And the Muslims in Antwerpen are not know for their gentle speech and manners. Perhaps holding large festivals without any precautions is not the wisest choice. 3/11 would be very easy to repeat under such conditions.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-06 11:48:20 PM||   2004-07-06 11:48:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#110 Right on, trailling wife! Good questions. Alas, no easy answers.
Posted by rex 2004-07-07 3:46:25 AM||   2004-07-07 3:46:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#111 * In reply to Frank G : I know what a caliphate is, and in reality it's nothing more than the name of a place where a muslim caliphe rules, such as cordoba, sevilla, bagdad, caïro,... The shiites want to unite all different muslims (and not the whole world) under one caliphe. I also do know the concept of dhimmitude, which is about the fact that once we'd be ruled muslims and would be living by the shari'a-lawsystem, we are allowed as non-muslim entities to develop strategies to survive and that we can have a certain political and social "protection". The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". It might seem to you that there's no effort by muslim populations to disown the actions of their extremists, but this is not always true. Maybe it's a local thing here, but belgian Imams preach against terrorism and the main opinion over here is the same. There are, of course, exceptions, such as Abu JahJah's AEL-party (Arabic-European League which is an official political party over here) who replied to the Vlaams Blok (a flemish right-extremist party who wants to kick muslims out of our country) that if we Belgians don't like it here, we should leave. This was said in order to show the Vlaams Blok that such things shouldn't be said and therefor he simply used the same rethoric. After that he asked the muslims to remain calm. But the main attitude by the muslim-community over here is against terrorism and Jihad. Even simple mathematics can be used to see that only a minority is pro-jihad: there are sunites, shiites, wahhabites (=> later splitted into different groups such as the taliban), the sufi, the druzi (lebanon), Assassins, the Fatimites, the Ismailites, and the Karmathians and a great deal of non-practisizing muslims in Indonesia, Turkey and Egypt, and a chines tao-form of the islam. It is a convention to treat the tolerant, anti-jihad Sunite Islam as the norm, because of the vast superiority of numbers of the Sunnites and the fast recognized by all non-Shiites (whether Moslem or no) that the Shiites have departed to an amazing degree from anything that can be considered the original Islam. Shiism has always lent itself in an extraordinary degree to bigotry and persecution of non-Shiites. We have 12 groups here, but only the shiites are pro-jihad. Sunni Muslims make up the majority (85%) of Muslims all over the world. Significant populations of Shiite Muslims can be found in Iran and Iraq, and large minority communities in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, and Lebanon. In short, this means that only a small minority of even less than 15% is pro-jihad, from which I dedect that there is no reason to be afraid of the majority of muslims in your country.

Furthermore, there are also as many interpretations of the Koran (or Quran) as there are splinter-groups. I say interpretations, since there are no words in the Quran (I've read the book since my wife is a muslim of origin, but doesn't believe in it.) that call up, allow, justify or facilitate outrages as you said. It's in the interpreations that the difference lies, and that where you'll find some justification.
On the other hand, there are many verses in the Quran which denounce terrorism. You can find some of them over here: Islam Denounces Terrorism
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-07 6:21:43 AM||   2004-07-07 6:21:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#112 * In reply to trailing wife : I aknowledge the fact that there has always been an anti-islma prejuidice in Europe. I also know that there is an anti-semitism-problem. But the fact that there is an anti-semitic problem, doesn't mean, at least not in Europe here, that this anti-semitism comes from muslims. There are many fascistic groups in Europe who are against muslims as well as they are against jewish people, or any other nationality.

You said: At the same time, while the majority of the Jewish population of France (ie the native Ashkenazis as well as the Sephardis) is either seriously considering, or actively working toward, moving out of the country, Jacques Chirac loudly denounced the possibility that France has an antisemitism problem -- its just that some denizens of the suburbs are working out their undertandible anger about the unresolved Palestine problem.

Anti-semitism isn't 'just' a result of the palestine problem. This would be the same as telling that an anti-muslim attitude results from jews who are against muslims because of the same palestine problem. You simply can't blame muslims for all of the anti-semitism. Even followingany exsisting formal logical system can't prove this.

You also say: Similarly, the tide of anti-American rhetoric has risen consistently across Western Europe, or perhaps like antisemitism it is now acceptable to say openly what has always been thought.

This anti-american rethoric comes not only from muslims, but also from native Europeans for the simple reason that the US have violated NATO-conventions and because of the behaviour and diplomatic retardedness of Mr. Bush. In Europe, we aren't against Americans, it's just that we don't like Bush. We don't justify the attacks on your Twin-towers, but we also don't justify the attack on Iraq, since there was no real reason to do this, except for the money. (Visit this link about Carlyle for more information)

And this:July 4th as our Independence Day, and my family joined a crowd of perhaps 8,000 listening to Styx and watching the fireworks. Security guards did search all bags and coolers -- ostensibly for glass bottles -- and armed police officers circulated through the crowd. And, nothing bad happened.

The fact that nothing happend isn't linked to the fact that there was security. If nothing would have been planned to happen, and there were security precautions too, nothing would have happend either. Avoidance-behaviour may function as an enforcement-mechanism resulting that you will never stop taking security-measures, since you will never know that maybe nothing might have happened even without the precautions...

greets,
Wouter
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-07 6:51:09 AM||   2004-07-07 6:51:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#113 Dhimmi in waiting.
Posted by .com 2004-07-07 7:08:40 AM|| [http://www.amble.com/images/alqaeda.jpg]  2004-07-07 7:08:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#114 about Carlyle

BZZZZZZZZZZZT!
Black Albino is in reality agent A.L. Chappeau!
Posted by Shipman 2004-07-07 7:35:48 AM||   2004-07-07 7:35:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#115 Who is agent A.L. Chappeau?
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-07 7:38:54 AM||   2004-07-07 7:38:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#116 Mr. Black Albino,

Please read the article "A View from the Eye of the Storm" posted here: http://www.rantburg.com/page2.asp?D=7/7/2004#37372.
I would really like to know your opinion on it.

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-07-07 7:49:56 AM||   2004-07-07 7:49:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#117 A.L. Chappeau is RantBurgs man about town. A man with no fear who can dwell equally at Jihad Unspun or the Democratic Underground with equal ease. He reports back to us from time to time.
I had assumed it was you.... course you do would have to ask, if just to maintain cover.
Posted by Shipman 2004-07-07 7:51:17 AM||   2004-07-07 7:51:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#118 Pinch hitting for Antiwar... The Black Albino.
Lose one, get one. What a deal!
Posted by tu3031 2004-07-07 8:17:05 AM||   2004-07-07 8:17:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#119 Hey, tu3031 -- TBA/Wouter knows waaaay more than Anti, and uses bigger words, too. So its much more likely that he is educable. However, Wouter has that charming Euro conceit that we are ignorant Americans who've never been anywhere, and therefore have no basis for comparison. After he's hung around for a few days, he'll get over that, and with luck he will join our illustrious roster of perceptive foreign correspondents.

Lieve Wouter! (I assume from the name that you are Vlaams rather than Walloon) -- what a thrill, I get again to practice the little Flemish I learned when we lived in Overijse. Mama is always amused, but then she speaks what she refers to as proper Nederlaanse from Amsterdam...

Please re-read my post more carefully. I did not write that either antisemitism or anti-Americanism come from the Muslims. In actual fact, in their current form both are European snobberies absorbed by the Muslims as part of their Western education. My point was actually that both attitudes appear now to be endemic in the native population.

You are of course correct that acting to prevent problems is not necessarily the reason problems do not happen. But contrariwise, not acting to prevent problems means that when the problems come, nothing will stop them from occurring. The American approach is to take preventative action, rather than to hope that what hasn't yet occurred will continue not to happen.

You might try this article as an intro to anti-Americanism current and historic. This will help you understand why phrases such as, "In Europe, we aren't against Americans, it's just that we don't like Bush." set our teeth on edge.

Welcome to Rantburg! May our exchanges result in learning for us all!
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-07 10:40:36 AM||   2004-07-07 10:40:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#120 Rex -- thank you for the compliment. I do try, in my own little way, although I could not claim the expertise of so many others here :-)

And now, I go on to today's news!
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-07 12:04:10 PM||   2004-07-07 12:04:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#121 I'll read the articles and postings later on, but I'd like to tell you guys that I believe I don't have "that charming Euro-conceit that we are ignorant Americans who've never been anywhere, and therefore have no basis for comparison.". I have been living in america for quite some time in the past, and I meet some great american people over here in belgium. Mostly ex-pats who like to gather in the cosy jazz-club L'Archiduc in Brussels and other ex-pat gathering-places, and I have met quite a lot of people who really arent ignorant and have seen more of the world than I did.

* Furthermore, I also meet a great deal of muslim-people and people from other religions, even those living in squats or on the streets, and it's always interesting to also hear their side of the story... seems funny... is that what your A.L. Chappeau (or is it Al Capone, capone means the same as Chappeau) does too? :-)

* I (hopefully) didn't say that you exactly said that antisemitism or anti-Americanism come from the Muslims, butit was inherent in the logic of the sentence you posted. Just wanted to clear that out...

* On the prevention thing: it is very necessary to prevent these things, but there's always a possibility of estimating the chances that an attack will occur. These terrorists seem to aim for symbolic places with lots of people around, mostly in countries where some political leader might do something for or against their (here I don't know the word in English, in Flemish it's "belangen", which means something like things that are important to them...). Therefor, Rock Werchter wasn't estimated as a risk-target.

* Who is Antiwar ?
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-07 2:49:36 PM||   2004-07-07 2:49:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#122 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-07 2:59:07 PM||   2004-07-07 2:59:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#123 ...and she can't get enough of us. That's why she never leaves.
Posted by tu3031 2004-07-07 3:07:44 PM||   2004-07-07 3:07:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#124 Well, AntiJews, we find you tragic, really, because you're so deluded and pathetic and also you're the apologist troll of Evil.
The Muslim Caliphate of the Middle East is what should be dismantled and thanks to the great leadership of George W. Bush, along with his poodles Tony Blair, John Howard, Koziumi, Kwasniewski and Berlusconi, that is happening!
Posted by Annie War  2004-07-07 3:18:15 PM||   2004-07-07 3:18:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#125 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-07-07 3:34:49 PM||   2004-07-07 3:34:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#126 Black Albino. See what I mean?
Posted by tu3031 2004-07-07 3:38:39 PM||   2004-07-07 3:38:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#127 Tourette's attack in 5...4...3..
Posted by Frank G  2004-07-07 3:44:48 PM||   2004-07-07 3:44:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#128 TBA,

According to my Standaard and my Wolters', belangen means "importance, things that matter." The question is always, what matters to them, not to us? For instance, I never would have thought the World Trade Center or the Spanish trains important, which proves that I do not think like a jihadist (quite a comfort, actually!).

My Muslim friends, eg my daughter's godfather, can't enlighten me either, as they also do not think that way. And, despite my husband having spent years starting up factories throughout the Muslim world, he is unable to enlighten me either -- I suspect because it isn't considered good manners in that part of the world to explain to one's guest why and how much the neighbors hate him! His Arabic wasn't really good enough to eavesdrop on conversations in the street, either.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-07-07 4:02:05 PM||   2004-07-07 4:02:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#129 Some comments on the article on Anti-Americanism: I can fully agree with the article, and actually I believe that this Hertsgaard is some kind of a fool. What he's telling is only a very biased opinion based on a very biased selection of sources. As Bruce Bawer shows, Europeans aren't so "intellectual". I know people here who only speak one language of the three official languages in our county. People who are afraid of going to Brussels because they think it's a bad place, although they've never been there. In Brussels, it's also difficult to find someone in a shop who will speak Dutch instead of French. Some restaurants even have Italian-speaking servants who don't speak any other language, or chinese people who don't know a word of any European language. Some of my patients have the same problem, and often I'm required to find somebody to translate what they say. Furthermore, we also have newspapers which are pure filth or pulp and which misinform people since their opinion is biased by leftish idea's which are quite passé right now. Some people over here don't know the geography of their own country, let alone of the rest of Europe or the world. Any many people think their country is the best. This is the kind of "proto-fascism" (as coined by Zizek) that I was talking about, and this thing makes me very sad sometimes. In fact, it's everywer the same. The clichés that are summed up in anti-american texts are mostly the things we don't like about our own country and which are projected on America in order to maker it easier to blame someone for it. They simply don't want to see that they have the same problem, or sometimes worse, but when you think it's someone else's problem, it's easier to cope with it.

To recommend Africa to Americans as a model of social harmony without a hint of qualification is not just unserious, it’s hallucinatory. From my field experience in African countries in NGO-projects, I can fully agree with this sentence too... Africa is in fact a socio-economical ruin where you can't trust too many people. When they can use you, they'll be friendly, but don't turn your back to most of these people when they don't need you anymore, is my most important advise to Africa-travelers. They have a different social structure of tribes and chefs, and the official law-systmes don't count. The only law that counts is the decision of the village-chef. And they are very intolerant to other tribes. Of course there are also good things in Africa, and there are friendly people who are gratefull to anyone who offers some help, and of course it's fun to go BBQ'ing with some rich white people in South-Africa who live in overprotected neighborhoods where black people don't come, but telling that "the African way" is to be taken as an example is sheer lunacy.

But is there any good system? I've been living in Cuba for a year. One half in La Habana Vieja, and another six months in El Nicho. In Havana people have the same (food, drinks, 1 piece of soap every month, and a very low income of 10$ a month. They have a card for this (carta de raciones, don't know how to translate that, but it's a card which allows them to buy a limited quantity of different supplies, such as food, drinks,... and every time they receive something, it's indicated on the card, and they aren't allowed to receive more) as in El Nicho which is a remote mountain village 25 kilometers from "the rest of the world", and the only way to get there is a mud-road in which my car got stuck more than 10 times or so before I got there. It's a quite isolated place. But even there, they have the same carta de raciones, they have a tiny school, a small hospital, a doctor, one television with cable for the whole town in order to see Castro hold his speeches... Seems like it's Utopia over there... but there people don't knwo what happens in the rest of the world, and there is a very severe censorship in the press (only one state-published daily is allowed: Granma and even they have censorship. You'll only hear very biased news over there, there is a very big black market in anything that can be sold, and when they can they cheat you, or they are as corrupt as one can be. Farwell Utopia !

Guatemala then. Been living there for some time too, helping in a agricultural development project togehter with my wife who learned the small indians to count to 100 and learn some basic hygiene. Same problem as everywhere: censorship, no multilingualism, poverty, parochialism, interest in "entertaining western tv" when they could get hold of a TV... Not a good place either.

When I lived in America (Lake Arrowhead,CA and Clearwater and Sarasota, FL), I felt quite comfortable over there. It's much like Europe plus some spiced-up patriotism I don't feel to comfortable with, but which exists to some extent in any country. I met people who met the clichés Hertsgaard states, but I've also met many others who didn't conform to the clichés too. I mean: is america so different? The biggest difference with the old world is the lack of a social system. In the free-market-economy of America it's difficult to survive when you don't have a good income. Medical costs have risen the last decade to hallucinant prices and there are no retributions unless you heve a very costly insurance. And then some juridical cases who prove that some (isolated I hope) people can't be responsible for themselves: the millon-dollar case for a spilled bit of MC-donalds-coffee and the "I didn't know that fast food (one case) / smoking (another case) was bad for me and now i'm ill, so pay me"-lawsuites. But furthermore, America seems a good country to me. I just think it's a pity that you have a right to vote and not the obligation to vote...

The question is: is there any place that's different from what Hertsgaard tells America's like? First off al, he's exaggerating. Secondly, the clichés he states can be found everywhere, and indeed, in some countries more than in other countries.

On the other hand, it seems true to me, but I don't claim it to be a truth, that America is more a society of the individual, and not so much a society which cares for the total of individuals... Also, some lack of interest in the (I don't know the word in english here, maybe you'll understand when I call it bottom-sources or ground sources) and the time these will last... But that can be said of Belgium too. It's been calculated that if the whole planet would have our way and standard of living of Belgium or america, our planet would become a unlivable trashbelt within 15 years...

Some conclusions: I understand the mechanism of anti-americanism, but I don't think it's a good thing. People should look at their own faults before they look at someone else's...

P.S.: One nice historical note. I don't know the exact numbers, but in World War II, D-Day, the Americans had something of an estimated casualty-rate of 2500 americans / day for 6 days. Some people here state that the WWII is actually won because of psychopath Stalin who had 2500 russions/day dying for a period of 4 years or so at the so-called east-front, which resulted in the fact that Hitler concentrated/spent to much of his "powers" at the east-front... How some cruelties may have a good end. Sad but true...

P.P.S.: on the topic of Antiwar: there might be some truth in what she/he says, i've read some postings of this person... but it's the style and the one-sided quite naïve vision that does it: even the good guys have their bad sides. Just don't forget that. Ernesto Che Guevarra, Camillio Cienfuegos and Fidel Castro might seem saints, and are depicted like that in El Museo de la Revolucion in Havana, but they aren't. Even though they fought for a good cause, they were women-rapists and babyslayers as well. And they also shot quite a lot of innocent people as well as people who fought together with them.

The pure white of virtue is never white, there are always black and red stains...
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-09 7:22:34 AM||   2004-07-09 7:22:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#130 On the article: "A view from the eye of the storm"

In spite of my ideals I feel quite obliged to agree with this article. The four pilars which are stated in it (suicide-killers, words, money and the complete breaking of rules) are indeed a fact.

Then two questions come to my mind: A)cause? B) solution? .

A)I don't think one defenitive cause can be pointed out. The stated inner circle consists mainly of the minority of Shiites who are pro-jihad. I have experienced a strane fact some time ago: many muslims don't know wehter they are shiites or sunnites. Most of the time you can simply ask the who they follow: the famaily or the prophet or the killer of the prophet Mohammed, and then you can know wether they or respectively shiites or sunnites. But they don't really seem to know it themselves. They believe there is one Koran. This gives rise to the problem of the inner and outer circles as stated in the article: the inner circle is controlled by shiites, and because of the one Koran, as they think it exsists, forgetting all the different versions and interpretations, they hold togehter in one unified muslim-front, which makes that even peacefull sunnites support in one way or another, even if it's only by ommission, the terrorists. Then there are many other factors: poverty, inciting text indeed, and great illiteracy which makes they can't read an form a personal opinion but have to listen to the local town-inciters...

B) I know this isn't a solution, but I want to cite Derrida: "Sometimes a democratic system must break it's own idealistic rules from time to time in order to preserve the democracy." I truely belive this. Problem is that sometimes this "breaking of laws" is over the top and cannot be justified...
Posted by The Black Albino  2004-07-09 7:54:20 AM||   2004-07-09 7:54:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#131 I am getting sick and tired of just hearing from a few members of the Muslim faith with the recognition that the terriorist are not following the Allah or the Quran. Where are all the Muslim leaders and why are they not talking to the press and humanity about the atrocisities of the Muslim Terriorists. We need some real action from the Muslim leaders. Their NON action is almost as dispicable as the atrossities we have happening all over the world.

Come on guys (and gals) let's see some action for the real side of Allah.
Posted by Bill Eldridge 2004-10-22 11:44:08 AM||   2004-10-22 11:44:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#132 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 8:57:39 AM||   2004-07-06 8:57:39 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 9:10:20 AM||   2004-07-06 9:10:20 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 9:22:55 AM||   2004-07-06 9:22:55 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 9:27:37 AM||   2004-07-06 9:27:37 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 9:37:29 AM||   2004-07-06 9:37:29 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 10:21:52 AM||   2004-07-06 10:21:52 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 10:30:00 AM||   2004-07-06 10:30:00 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 10:43:00 AM||   2004-07-06 10:43:00 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 10:58:17 AM||   2004-07-06 10:58:17 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 11:50:58 AM||   2004-07-06 11:50:58 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 12:01:11 PM||   2004-07-06 12:01:11 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 12:21:16 PM||   2004-07-06 12:21:16 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 1:07:36 PM||   2004-07-06 1:07:36 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 1:16:05 PM||   2004-07-06 1:16:05 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 1:41:41 PM||   2004-07-06 1:41:41 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 2:52:00 PM||   2004-07-06 2:52:00 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 2:59:05 PM||   2004-07-06 2:59:05 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 3:20:00 PM||   2004-07-06 3:20:00 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:05:17 PM||   2004-07-06 4:05:17 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:20:06 PM||   2004-07-06 4:20:06 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:21:52 PM||   2004-07-06 4:21:52 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:26:31 PM||   2004-07-06 4:26:31 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 4:32:12 PM||   2004-07-06 4:32:12 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-06 9:23:30 PM||   2004-07-06 9:23:30 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-07 2:59:07 PM||   2004-07-07 2:59:07 PM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Antiwar 2004-07-07 3:34:49 PM||   2004-07-07 3:34:49 PM|| Front Page Top

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