Article

2004-07-04 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Capt America 2004-07-04 12:37:51 AM|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I haven't talked much about my experience in Vietnam, but most of you probably know that decapitation was a common form of mutilation there.
The Vietnamese supposedly had a superstition that cutting off a man's head would cause his spirit to arrive headless in the afterlife and he wouldn't be able to find his way about.

It just happens that I was in An Loc, RVN, the day after the long NVA siege of that town was broken in 1972.
I met a South Vietnamese militiaman, a "Ruff-puff" (from Regional Forces/Popular Forces) who had been there throughout the siege.
He was very grateful for the support our airpower had provided and I was the first American pilot he had met in person.

He offered me a present: a recently killed NVA's severed head. He held it up by the hair, right in my face.
I was frankly about to piss my pants in horror, but I managed to politely decline (thereby displaying some cultural sensitivity before the term was popularized).
I mean, seriously, you don't want to offend someone who is holding a severed head even if he's on your side.
If I had been thinking a little more quickly, I might have said, "er, no thanks, I already have a head and I'm not sure where I would put another one."

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-07-04 1:16:44 AM|| 2004-07-04 1:16:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Hey, Atomic, that was a nice VN story. Ahhh, memories....

Best Wishes, (wait, wait, wait....lol) One other thing. I just had this conversation over a Tacitus a couple of days ago...and I thought I might ask you also:

...I am curious if you have ever returned, post-war, to SEA? I am currently debating a new invitation to spend Thanksgiving in Viet Nam with a bunch of guys, probably in Hanoi, though possibly HCMC also.

I refused to go last year, and will probably do so again this year. Maybe I sould do my returning in baby steps, starting in Myanmar and moving East, (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos) finally ending in Na Trang, or some place I am familiar with.

This is a real weirdness in me. I really loved VN, Cambodia and the people across SEA...but I won't go back. I took the fall of Saigon very hard. It is bitter in my mouth and still is.

People find my position on this to be very odd.
I am curious if you had any similar feelings, or if you had ever returned to VN for a visit?

Real Best Wishes,

Posted by Traveller 2004-07-04 1:47:14 AM|| 2004-07-04 1:47:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Traveller,
My feelings mirror yours almost exactly. I have been to Thailand several times during the last 30 years and to Cambodia once, however.

I also loved Vietnam and the Vietnamese people. The RVN was a less than ideal state, as the media never tired of reminding us, but it was a damn sight better than the Stalinist slave-camp that replaced it after our Congress cut off aid in 1974, thereby guaranteeing the success of the NVA's spring offensive in 1975.

I am especially bitter that the Republic of Vietnam has almost been erased from history in the years since, like an executed regime opponent in Orwell's 1984.

A few years ago, I was at a symposium on the Vietnam War at Texas Tech and happened to meet an alleged expert on the war from the University of New Mexico, a self-described liberal who was too young to have been an adult when the war ended.

This person (whose first name was the same as my last name, oddly enough) had only the vaguest idea what the RVN was and, so help me, had never heard of Nguyen Van Thieu.
(For others, Thieu was the last President of the Republic of Vietnam and managed to escape the collapse that inevitably followed the Congressional sellout of his country.)

It happens that Thieu (who died in 2001) was also at the symposium. I introduced the ignorant "expert" to him with the words, "Mr. President, this is one of our leading liberal historians of the war but he had never heard of you before today." Thieu was apparently very amused by this and the lib expert slunk away never to seen again, at least at the symposium.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-07-04 2:06:30 AM|| 2004-07-04 2:06:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#4
Dearest AC:

Another great Atomic Conspiracy story! I don't think I'd ever go to symposium on VN, (I'd never have a reason to...lol)

But since one good story deserves another, recently some friends took me down to Little Saigon, aka Westminster, in Orange County, CA, and I was surprised to see the old yellow, with 3 red stripes, flags from the RVN fluttering from every lamp post, all up and down every major street as far as you could see throughout the city.

This was just before a delegation from Hanoi asked to visit Westminister but was refused on the grounds that security for the delegation could not be assured, considering the feelings of the people of Little Saigon.

No wonder! I asked several Vietnamese about this, and they all felt that if any North Vietnamese commie rat-prick bastard set foot in Westminster there would be major trouble.

Personally, I am trying to mellow or chill or find some psychological distance on this. It has been about 37 years since I've been in country, and I still am certain that I couldn't go to the Ho Chi Minh mausoleum in Hanoi without going crazy.

Maybe if I wait another 50 years...(grin)

Best Wishes,

Posted by Traveller 2004-07-04 2:43:17 AM|| 2004-07-04 2:43:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#5
On Topic:

I think a little escalation in the shock and horror department is called for. We should start feeding terrorists to mean, nasty and half starved swine.

Something similar to what was portrayed in the movie "Hannabil" (sp?).

That would drive those silly forkers over the edge. We could film each feeding, and drop the whole mess on the Internet.

CiT

Posted by Crazy in Texas 2004-07-04 8:13:26 AM|| 2004-07-04 8:13:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 AC: Thanks for the stories--and for your service.

Posted by Mike 2004-07-04 8:58:52 AM|| 2004-07-04 8:58:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 "POWâs and collaborators."
So who wrote this crap?
They are hostages,murdered by thugs and barbarians.
CiT,I like it.

Posted by Raptor 2004-07-04 9:40:24 AM|| 2004-07-04 9:40:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Destroy al-Jazeera and imprison those who fund it. Seriously.

Posted by Chris W. 2004-07-04 10:17:14 AM|| 2004-07-04 10:17:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Hanging, a proud British and American Tradition.

Or perhaps I should say, "In Praise of Hanging".

The Arabic Islamic cultures are very familiar with the practice of hanging, due to the British, and both respect it and associate it with dishonor. The reason being that all sorts of unpopular villains were hung, so it loses any trace of "martyrdom" associated in their minds with many other violent forms of death. A hanged Islamist would not go to heaven--not officially, mind you--but in the minds of the people.

I have heard it suggested that the new Iraqi government is considering adopting it as their new means of execution, though I'm not sure. But I think it would be a smashing good idea.

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-07-04 10:31:55 AM|| 2004-07-04 10:31:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Moose - at the very least they should hang Saddam and his cronies, as a message to the rest of the Arab world (who left them to suffer under Saddam for 30 years) as much as a method of dispatching the bastards to HELL.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-07-04 11:06:44 AM|| 2004-07-04 11:06:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Hey, even the 'enlightened' French figured out manual head removal was not clean or humane. Enter Dr. Guillotine.

Posted by Don 2004-07-04 11:15:31 AM|| 2004-07-04 11:15:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 What good is a human punishment. When catch terrorists, let's re-introduce an old German favorite. Breaking on the wheel. Take a captured terrorist, tie him to the wheel, then take a mace or hammer and break all the bones in his arms and legs into multiple pieces. Then put the wheel up on top of a post so they die of exposure. According to German records, the longest anyone lasted is four days. It is humane? Hell no. But it is brutal and nasty and sends a very clear message.

Posted by Silentbrick 2004-07-04 12:19:18 PM|| 2004-07-04 12:19:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Hey, AC and Traveller, thanks for your service in Vietnam!
Might I recommend the fiction book "In Country" by Nelson Demille about a Vietnam vet who goes back and his impressions?
While I didn't serve in that war (graduated high school in '74) and have never been there, I think Demille did and the book struck me with his comparisons of then and now and how little the place had changed, particularly in the South.

Posted by Jen 2004-07-04 12:23:11 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-04 12:23:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 My Dear Lady, Jen:

I must briefly sojourn beyond this countryâs borders, but before I take my leave, I feel compelled to tell you how happily and yet oddly also your little thank you for our service, ACâs and mine, struck me when I first saw it this morning.

Coffee may be a restorative to a sleep weary spirit, but words of praise can discombobulate also. First, it struck me that this is the first time I have heard such a âThank You.â I know that your words are sincere and I thank you back for them, but is does seem strange to finally hear this after all these years. I donât know what to make of it. I am reasonably sure that AC would agree that we did what we did simply because it was our War, our time, and we simply did our best with no small measure of heroism, terror and passing periods of abject cowardice and fear. We were all just human and such an admixture of emotions seem to me at least not at all unusual. They were difficult times.

As you are aware, returning veterans of Viet Nam did not find much gratitude, and certainly not much solace for those of us that returned to college campuses. However, going to college was an opportunity I would never have had without my Army service considering my hard scrabble background. So, all in all, I suppose it was a fair deal all around.

In any case, thank you for the book reference, I will try to find it, and may I recommend back to you a fine slim volume titled, Viet Nam, the Necessary War, that may place all of this in a proper worldwide context.

I will ponder and reflect on the meaning of your small missive, and I give you every assurance that it was greatly appreciated.

Though we remain on opposite sides of the political aisle, I remain,

Sincerely,

Your Humble and Obedient Servant,

Traveller

(Oh, Iâve been reading 18th century text, and thought that I would just carry on in that vein...lol)

Posted by Traveller 2004-07-04 4:10:53 PM|| 2004-07-04 4:10:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 CiT>there's a popular blog that Pershing, while stationed in the Philipines caught and executed 49 of 50 Muslim terrorists. Before their execution he had a dozen hogs slaughtered and thrown in a ditch; entrails, blood and shit all over the place. Pershing then had the muslims executed and threw their bodies into the same ditch w/the aformentioned dead swine. The 50th Muslim was sent free to tell his living compadres of what happens when you attack Americans. I'm not sure if the story is true, but I like the intent.

AC/Traveller> thanks for your service.

To all> Happy 4th.

Semer Fidelis,

Jarhead

Posted by Jarhead 2004-07-04 4:48:45 PM|| 2004-07-04 4:48:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 dittos here, gents and ladies who served - thank you!

Posted by Frank G 2004-07-04 5:10:07 PM|| 2004-07-04 5:10:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Dammit! I can't believe I typoed Semper. Well, I never claimed to be sharp.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-07-04 5:27:00 PM|| 2004-07-04 5:27:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Traveller, the book you recommend by Michael Lind sits on my shelf. I pull out that book anytime someone says My Lai to me. I ask them to read pages 151-156. Lind describes the North Vietnamese "Land Reform" program. That policy in practice was the deliberate execution of up to 15,000 people because they belonged to the wrong class - landlord farmers. (Thank you Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh and now Robert Mugabe for your innovations.) It was portrayed by our muck-racking vanguard press as a noble attempt to redistribute land to rectify "injustice". (Thank you Tom Hayden.) Then I ask them to see the difference between the murder of innocents by individual soldiers in an act of passion and the deliberate North Vietnamese policy of atrocity. Of the three crimes described above, I am tempted to believe the crime committed by the abettors in our press outweighs the North Vietnamese one - almost. Your service was in a noble cause, Traveller and AC, as noble as the fight against Hitler, the Soviets and Saddam. I thank you for it.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-07-04 6:41:14 PM|| 2004-07-04 6:41:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Jarhead:
"CiT>there's a popular blog that Pershing, while stationed in the Philipines caught and executed 49 of 50 Muslim terrorists."

I too have read accounts of Gen. Blackjack Pershings exploits against Moslem insurgents during the Philipine Campaigns. I have been unable to substantiate the stories involving the pigs, and the one freed fighter. I suspect it is a bit of historical fancy.

None the less, I would endorse it mightily, except I view it as a waste of tasty pork. So, that is why I propose feeding the Islamofreaks to the pigs. Alive of course.

I've been considering what could be done with the swine scat. Some rather interesting and provocative marketing scenarios come to mind.

To all who have served, Thank You! God bless!

CiT

Posted by Crazy in Texas 2004-07-04 7:14:31 PM|| 2004-07-04 7:14:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Jarhead
"Dammit! I can't believe I typoed Semper. Well, I never claimed to be sharp."

A few years back while doing some...work, at Fort Huachuca. There was a Gunny that used to ride his charges without mercy, especially the Marines.

He used to always ask them: "Marine, do you know what Marine stands for"? The only acceptable answer was, No GUNNY! One did not steal the Gunny's thunder.

The Gunny would then inform the hapless Grunt that Marine stands for:

(M)Muscles
(A)Are
(R)Required
(I)Intelligence
(N)Not
(E)Essential

That is all, carry on!

CiT

Posted by Crazy in Texas 2004-07-04 7:24:38 PM|| 2004-07-04 7:24:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 "(M)Muscles (A)Are (R)Required (I)Intelligence (N)Not (E)Essential"

CiT> that's a new one on me. Some others:

Grunt - Ground Replacement UNTrainable

Pogue - Person Other then Grunt

ARMY - Ain't Ready for Marine Yet

Posted by Jarhead 2004-07-04 9:46:41 PM|| 2004-07-04 9:46:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Jarhead
"Grunt - Ground Replacement UNTrainable"

I had heard this one before, the other two were new to me. As an ex-Lower form of Marine life (Squid), I really appreciate these bits MilHumor.

Almost makes me nostalgic for my Navy days. Almost.

CiT

Posted by Crazy in Texas 2004-07-04 10:00:01 PM|| 2004-07-04 10:00:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Breaking on the wheel,feeding to pigs.all nice but I'd like to have these maggots read my bumper cticker("Nobody beats America:NOBODY!")while my rear wheels are grinding their face into hamburger.

Posted by WhiteHouseDetox 2004-07-04 11:06:22 PM|| 2004-07-04 11:06:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I'm a USAF vet:I tried to enlist in the Marines but I scored too high on the IQ test and was placed in the Air Force.

Posted by WhiteHouseDetox 2004-07-04 11:09:14 PM|| 2004-07-04 11:09:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 rrriiiggghhht

and I got kicked out of the astronaut program for excessive testosterone

Posted by Frank G 2004-07-04 11:19:38 PM|| 2004-07-04 11:19:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Hey Trav, many came back not so whole, My brother went to VN a slick feilding second baseman. He came back a gutted junkie. He's now a broken man. Has done many years behind bars, He just got out of 3 months jail for parole violations, he didn't make his restatution. His GI bill went to learning how to do jouneyman level concrete work. But after a few years the meany took him back. Last year he had his heart attack. The VA Med. did him right. They saved his life. He has been lately trying to pay back their work for him by hanging out with the other meds at the VA.

To bad, another DA found out about his wherabouts and violated his parole again. 18 months Trav. Asshole that he is. So please don't pin the donkey on your chest. Yes VN service, way to go. bad luck for some, good luck for others.

Posted by Lucky 2004-07-04 11:45:43 PM|| 2004-07-04 11:45:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Lucky, more than 3 million people served in Vietnam during the war. Traveller and I have apparently done quite well in the years since, but (if I may presume to speak for Trav) we are very much aware that this is not true of everyone.
It irks me though that the unfortunate minority became representative of all VN veterans, which is demonstrably an injustice and a slander.
The great majority of Vietnam veterans are productive, law-abiding citizens now nearing retirement age.
It has been demonstrated over and over that many of the most disturbed "veterans," including some featured on network documentaries, were not veterans at all but impostors.
Not only are those vets with difficulties falsely portrayed as typical, but they are often falsely portrayed in and of themselves.
The number of homeless vets, for example, is miniscule compared to those who battle heroically (yes, heroically) against emotional and psychological problems while still trying to function in society.

I was an aviator, a pretty cushy job by most standards, especially compared to humping a rucksack through the bush. I slept indoors and ate hot chow almost every day.
On the other hand, our fatality rate was about 1 in 5 and I backed up my .45 with a cyanide capsule after I learned what happened to captured flyers in the South or Cambodia (as opposed to the North, where they had some propaganda value.)

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-07-05 12:09:17 AM|| 2004-07-05 12:09:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 AC, I know! My service was a shoe shine operation. But the hollywood version of vets screwed is very real to me. It's not a lie always. My brother Mike is a poster child of that hollywood version.

There is always going to be this gray area regarding wht went on in VN. That those in charge of the ops were so blind to how to fight a war without any thought to what victory meant.

May I say, that I've jousted with Trav a few times, but only in jest. His comments are always sober and well intended. But most of the folks I knew who went to VN, not all, came back screwed, dead or missing things. That was war.

Mike was giving back, but, oh well, mandatory sentencing means 18 months. I hope he servives AC.

Posted by Lucky 2004-07-05 12:27:54 AM|| 2004-07-05 12:27:54 AM|| Front Page Top

02:45 Long Hair Republican
00:28 Atomic Conspiracy
00:27 Lucky
00:09 Atomic Conspiracy
23:50 Lucky
23:45 Lucky
23:45 Zpaz
23:34 Silentbrick
23:32 Raptor
23:19 Frank G
23:18 Frank G
23:10 Raptor
23:09 WhiteHouseDetox
23:06 WhiteHouseDetox
22:59 Raptor
22:52 Raptor
22:44 Anonymous5295
22:37 Zpaz
22:14 muck4doo
22:02 muck4doo
22:00 Shipman
22:00 Crazy in Texas
21:56 Shipman
21:55 Jarhead