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2004-06-20 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-06-20 6:55:44 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "CAIR officials invite Muslims across the US to begin an intensive self-reflection process to address the question 'Why do they hate us?' CAIR officials themselves could offer no apparent reasons."

Posted by NYT Editor 2004-06-20 9:51:40 AM|| 2004-06-20 9:51:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 "With the recent increase of violence in Iraq and the killing of an American civilian in Saudi Arabia, the Islamic community in Florida is concerned about a possible anti-Muslim backlash,"

Mr Ali ought to thank his lucky stars he lives in such a civilised country. Noone wandering the streets of Tampa, asking people their religion and gutting them if they answer wrongly. Perhaps he ought to reflect on that.

I do believe that Western civilisation is just a veneer, and a very thin one at that, over a core of blue-steel destructive potential. Mr Ali had better hope that the veneer holds. I'm reminded of the Second World War, which had a 'phony' aspect for both England and America, with England deliberately *not* bombing German cities in the first few months of the war, but just a few short years later no quarter was given, and entire cities such as Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne and Tokyo were firebombed with the sole intention of causing as much death and destruction as possible.

This is what's at stake here and instead of worrying about a "possible anti-Muslim backlash" (really, does some vandalism compare against beheadings!), Mr Ali really ought to be figuring out how to convince the West that Islam can be reformed - he'd better do it fast too.

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-06-20 10:02:27 AM|| 2004-06-20 10:02:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I'm not "cool" with this, as Mr Lucky might say, but the worm has turned. I expect this to become commonplace as frustration mounts. The outstanding question to be answered is the 'Zoids - will they be stupid enough to continue or will Nayef get a clue. Doh! Nah, it's when, instead of if.

Posted by .com 2004-06-20 10:15:52 AM|| [http://www.amble.com/images/patriotic_duty.jpg] 2004-06-20 10:15:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Maybe the Muslims need to be protected from the violent 'Merkins. Perhaps we should put them where they'll be safe. Manzanar, anyone?

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-06-20 10:21:40 AM|| 2004-06-20 10:21:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Big deal. I don't care that it happened.

I don't even care if more moslem public buildings are vandalized (I'm aware that this may make me unpopular with some Rantburgers). They have it coming.

(And I used to be a liberal.)

BTW: Has the moslem community in Florida officially denounced Islamic terrorism? the beheadings? the mistreatment of moslem women? the Sudan attacks? the dancing and prancing around charred American bodies in Iraq? the Towers? the thousands of fatwas and edicts against the West? the terrorist cells operating in America and Europe? Anybody turn in anybody lately? Their dear friend Abu, next door, who keeps ordering lawn fertilizer for his urban flat?

Didn't think so.

Any marches going on out there by moslems in support of America? Any reports/interviews with the local/national newspaper and media outlets telling us they're Americans first, and that they will stand by their country?

Thought not.

They're just a bunch of pagan "allah" worshipers bitching and moaning that some of their stuff got messed with--and calling on OUR system of goverment to protect them from their own self-created consequences! (surprise, surprise--direct to ya' from the culture of blame)

If they're so worried about hate crimes, I suggest they clean house. And when they want to publically apologize for the beheading of Paul Johnson, by their fellow moslems, (especially in the light of the apology made by our President to the entire moslem world regarding Abu Gharib), I'll start to consider feeling bad that their place was roughed up a little. 'Till then . . . (crickets chirping)

Hey: I wonder if the Johnson's are having a happy Father's Day.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-20 10:58:10 AM|| 2004-06-20 10:58:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 ex-lib - I have an automatic response when action is taken against anyone other than a perp. It's that evil 'Merkin upbringing, I guess. You can take from that what you want and toss the bits that don't measure up. I have the feeling that, soon enough, I'll wear a Mona Lisa smile when I recall such Pollyanna notions.

I understand and, as I have posted before on RB, appreciate righteous indignation and passion. Indeed, I'm sure Johnson's Family is NOT having a nice Father's Day. And that makes your point truly sting. Thx.

Posted by .com 2004-06-20 11:16:56 AM|| [http://www.amble.com/images/patriotic_duty.jpg] 2004-06-20 11:16:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Actually, given the HUGE amount of recent "Hate crimes" that turn out to be committed by the supposed victims, I'm not sure I believe it was done by anyone but the center's own people. I think if we were going to be seeing this kind of behavior out of the public, it'd of been done right after 9/11. So in this case, I think it was done, like so many others, by the 'victims' themselves.

Posted by Silentbrick 2004-06-20 11:25:45 AM|| 2004-06-20 11:25:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I had that same thought. I didn't mention it out of a sense of mistaken politeness.

Posted by Fred 2004-06-20 11:32:12 AM|| 2004-06-20 11:32:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 I'd love to know how much cash this place collects for "charities". And what sort of "education" people get inside it.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-20 11:40:23 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-06-20 11:40:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Silentbrick: Yeah, that's another one of their strategies. Definitely wouldn't put it past Islamics to play the intrigue card. OTOH, people may be getting fed up. OTOH, run-of-the-mill hooligans might simply be noticing an opportunity to do what they'd do anyway.

But if it's a genuine reaction--i.e., people are getting fed up--I'm sticking to my original post (#5).

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-20 11:44:25 AM|| 2004-06-20 11:44:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Robert Crawford:

Maybe the moslems in America could take up a charity collection for the Johnsons.

Maybe they could run edcation classes on how to reform Islam.

There I go again. Thinking like an American infidel . . .

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-20 11:47:20 AM|| 2004-06-20 11:47:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 crayon graffiti? They did it

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-20 12:04:55 PM|| 2004-06-20 12:04:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 "They have it coming."

Oh, that so very nice "they". How many times I've heard it.

Reminded me a bit of the type of people who justify the attacks on Jewish cemeteries and the like, because Jewish communities don't oppose Israel's policies/settlements whatever.

And just a little bit of the type of people who justify attacks against civilians because they don't like the group they belong to, not anything personally done or undone.

Ah, twenty centuries of stony sleep...

"telling us they're Americans first,"

Not sure too many truly faithful Christians would pass (or like) that test, if you asked them if they are Christians first or Americans first.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-20 12:17:39 PM|| 2004-06-20 12:17:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Uh , Aris, the difference is there's no contradiction in being an American Christian

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-20 12:28:19 PM|| 2004-06-20 12:28:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "Theyâre afraid. Theyâre concerned. Theyâre intimidated," Bedier said.

[Airplane]

Ha ha! The glove is on the other foot now!

[/Airplane]

Reading through this thread evokes a lot of mixed emotions. I've already mentioned my (obvious) predictions that backlash against Muslims will mount with continuing Islamic atrocities.

Speaking as a capitalist, the destruction of private property cannot be condoned, it is antithetical to civil rights. However, there are strong and justified perceptions that a significant percentage of the Muslim community, here in America and especially abroad, is being less than forthright about its declared agenda and the intended means of achieving those ends.

With each terrorist atrocity, mutilation and murder my own personal sympathy account balance continues to approach zero. I can only assume that many less worldly people have already depleted their own reserves. We can all be sure that the curve is not asymptotic, it will null at some point, it is only a matter of time and continued offense.

I still do not see within the Islamic community, here or abroad, any sort of persuasive and concerted effort that would serve as sufficient renouncement of either terrorism or desire for universal sharia law. The glaring lack of these basic declarations may well prove to be Islam's own self-imposed death knell.

A modest proposal:

If Islamic organizations want to maintain operations in American cities, they would be well advised to open their books (and doors) to scrutiny by the local community. Full transparency is one of the few gestures I can imagine that would be able to assuage the doubts and suspicions which Islamist duplicity has rightfully inspired in so many Western people.

Should Muslim organizations prove unable to do such a thing, they will merely invite further attacks (however wrong) like the one in this thread's lead article. While I cannot possibly condone such violence, neither will I be surprised by its continued increase as ever greater numbers of people become fed up with the torrent of lies and deceit that spew from Islamic centers around the world. Suffice to say that the Johnson family probably finds itself among those ranks already.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-20 12:34:05 PM|| 2004-06-20 12:34:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Aris: you prove against yourself and use "they" in what, I'm sure you would consider (if it weren't you saying it) an "unfair" way. (I'm remembering your diatribes against the Greek government/Greek church intermeddlings in private life in your part of the world.) Do you yourself think of every single Greek school teacher as a separate individual every time? Do you think of every legislator, every government official, as a separate individual every time?

Of course you don't. While some individuals may stick out in your mind as being exceptions, you talk about people you disagree with as "they."

My use of "they" is more to the point. I have heard of only one very poorly attended demonstration against terrorism. And it wasn't in Tampa. "Their" silence is damning, Aris. And another thing: it's the Moslems who are at WAR with us. We're in a war here. In this context , (a wartime context) the moslems should say something if they like it here, support America, and disagree with moslem terrorism/warmongering. Otherwise, they should move back "home" and join the cause there, the cause that they are silently supporting here--unless of course, they are actually, clandestinely supporting the Islamic war effort against us here by staying here.

In effect, you are arguing that no expressions of goodwill or sympathy or solidarity need come from moslems in this country--they can just sit back and take over t his country for Islam, because Islam is what they believe in, right?

If for some reason Christians, per se, were at war with the United States, AS Christians, BASED on Christianity, PROMOTED by Christians, SUPPORTED by Christians, FUNDED by Christians, etc., and these "Christians" said nothing, as American troops fought for other "Christians," in a war fostered and carried out by "Christian" terrorists, I would conclude that the "Christians" in America were in agreement with the "Christian" terrorists waging the war against America.

And if people started attacking their public buildings, and I was on the side of the Americans against the "Christians" supporting terrorists, I would say "they" (the terrorist-supporting "Christians") had it coming.

Iâm certain you are projecting onto these silent moslems, your own hurt feelings over being personally slighted and disparaged, and disrespected, by certain "theys" in your own life. So let me ask you a question. How would you feel if moslems, because they are moslems--moslems funded, supported, and promoted by moslems--made war on you directly--if they began singling out people of your origin and country? And what if "they" lived next door to you, and said/did nothing as your countrymen died trying to protect what you believed in? Might you be a bit miffed?

Knowing you, Aris, you'd be absolutely OUTRAGED. If you're going to be angry at me, look to yourself, and what you might do in the same situation, first. These Islamics donât support your values any more than they support the values of democracy this country adheres to. âTheyâ live HERE, Aris, and if they don't say or do something in support of the United States, I must assume they have allied themselves with the "theys" of Islamic Fascism.

Finally, you are out of touch with what's going on in the United States--understably. You donât live here. Moslems here and in the UK are using Islam, and the freedoms we provide for them to practice their religion, as a smokescreen for political goals of taking over the world (IF a distinction can even be made between the religion and the goal).

Look out, Aris. "They" may be coming after you next.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-20 1:16:50 PM|| 2004-06-20 1:16:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 ex-lib> This isn't just about some building being vandalized, a fact you might or might not care that much about, given how outraged you feel towards the type of people prone to using it.

This is also about this vandalisation including the text "Kill all Muslims". At this point I think that your indirect support of the vandalization becomes, quite possibly unintentionally, an indirect support of the *message*.

As for supporting America, I'm sure that many of these Muslims pay their taxes, which do help USA build its army to be used in the war against Islamofascism.

And if they are law-abiding tax-paying citizens, I don't think that any other "declaration of loyalty" needs be made, such as "we are Americans first, Christians/Muslims second".

More vocality of their opposition to terrorism would be desirable, sure, but not everyone is politics-oriented, and not everyone is willing to stick his head out. Most people just *vote* and pay their taxes, they don't become politicians.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-20 1:35:42 PM|| 2004-06-20 1:35:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 A lot of good comments, people. Atrocities like the beheadings of Nick Berg and Paul Johnson will harden the positions of Americans toward radical Islam (and Islam itself). The very apparant lack of condemnation of the actions of radical Islam sends a very clear message to the American public as a whole that the majority of American Muslims are Muslims first and Americans a distant second. Every atrocity will harden this position. After 9-11 the Americans gave Muslims the benefit of the doubt, but after almost 3 years, the silence on the part of the Muslims is deafening and American patience has run out. President Bush gave it the old college try and came up empty, also.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-06-20 1:39:43 PM|| 2004-06-20 1:39:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 #16 it's the Moslems who are at WAR with us.

I hope no one forgets this one simple fact. America is fighting a defensive battle against terrorism. Militant Islam has chosen to attack us and we will defend ourselves.

ex-lib, I heartily commend your willingness to calmly spell out your position without resorting to any personal rancor. Your above post was spot-on in many respects, especially the following:

Moslems here and in the UK are using Islam, and the freedoms we provide for them to practice their religion, as a smokescreen for political goals of taking over the world (IF a distinction can even be made between the religion and the goal).

This is why my own previous post noted the importance of immediate and complete transparency within all Islamic organizations. Without it, militant Islam will continue to taint how all Muslims are perceived. The thundering silence coming from within Islam's community only makes this more imperative.

If Muslims as a whole remain mute on this issue, others will raise their voices in more fierce condemnation of terrorist treachery than that of Islam itself. Those voices will very likely be much less particular about distinguishing who among Islam's ranks are the real offenders. If Muslims do not decry terrorism louder than those outside their faith, they will have little valid defense against such accusations.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-20 1:47:31 PM|| 2004-06-20 1:47:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Vandals are cowards and scum, they should be in jail. We had a case like this in Lubbock a couple of months ago, someone defaced the local mosque. It turned out not to be outraged patriots, or an anti-media resistance cell, it was a group of illiterate teenage hooligans.
One policeman told me that this gang did not know the difference between Muslims and Jews and would probably have defaced the local synagogue if they had known how to find it.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-06-20 2:30:43 PM|| 2004-06-20 2:30:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Need to be careful how I phrase this:

Muslims and Muslim facilities will not be the prime targets if someone who truly understand the situation decides to resort to extra-legal action of some kind.
In some ways, the relationship between the Islamofascists and the media/academic/multicult axis is the opposite of what it seems; and it is the Islamos who are the useful idiots.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-06-20 2:52:15 PM|| 2004-06-20 2:52:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Aris,

Muslims (they) are muslims first and then whatever nationality they decide to take advantage of comes a distant second. This behaviour is not limited to the US. Take Venezuela for example. This country is at the brink of a civil war or of becoming another dictatorship. What do "Venezuelan" muslims have to say about the fate of the country were they were born and raised? NOTHING! I joined a venezuelan muslim group to see if they were discussing the situation there. Guess what? NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH about the present crisis. Main topic of conversation in that group is always palestine, Iraq, and the rest of the muslim world. Ditto about the yahoo group for Venezuelans residing in Saudi Arabia. The only time they participate in this group is to bitch about the States or whatever other country they perceive as "victimizing" their muslim brothers in this planet.

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-06-20 3:16:08 PM|| 2004-06-20 3:16:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 The more we know, the more we distrust...muslims were welcomed in this country by Americans who are most tolerant and respectful of all faiths, creeds, etc. Our hospitality has been rammed up our....by our "muslim brethren". Their islamic schools in this country teach lies and hate about Jews and Christians. Read "Mercy to Mankind" and "What Islam is All About". Two textbooks targeted to the under 13year old age group.

Posted by jawa 2004-06-20 6:09:53 PM|| 2004-06-20 6:09:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Do not put it past the enemy to destory their own buliding and then blame Americans.

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-06-20 6:14:38 PM|| 2004-06-20 6:14:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 The IRS laws governing non-profit 501C-3 foundations should be reviewed when itcomes to these dummy front groups for the promotion of A global jihad takeover.

It's one thing for the jihadees to gain funding from their OPEC & narco providers but it's a whole other situation when the American government (tax payers) allows them to set up shop in the form of so-called 'Islamic centers', which are nothing but cover to engage in fund raising for jihadic terrorism, plus get away with their evil deeds TAX FREE!

The enemy is mocking us and laughing all the way to the nearest bank!

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-06-20 6:21:08 PM|| 2004-06-20 6:21:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 This is also about this vandalisation including the text "Kill all Muslims"

In an obvious effort to be totally unlike my Muslim compatriots, I have to say that THIS IS WRONG; the vandalism, and the message is wrong. This probably puts me in agreement with Aris, shocker of all shockers. A more effective means of conveying the message we all want conveyed, would have been to plant a big sign in front of the Mosque, reading "Death to Al Qeada". This would surely ruffle the same feathers as in the vandalism case, and probably garner more support.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-20 7:47:29 PM|| 2004-06-20 7:47:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 I'm with Rafael: This was a clumsy way to register displeasure. Probably done by regular vandals believing the liberal refain that america is a hotbed of intolerance (except themselves, of course), and so thinking that the blame would be placed elsewhere. Real protestors ought to be more creative than that, like hanging a banner from lampposts that would have required calling the fire department or the utility to take down.

Hey Aris, just a question. You got any links to Islamic or skinhead discussion groups where they discuss antisemiitic vandalism against synagogues in a positive fashion, and where YOU post similar disapproving entries? I.e. Care to present REAL proof of your impartiality?

Posted by Ptah 2004-06-20 8:55:50 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-06-20 8:55:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 "You got any links to Islamic or skinhead discussion groups where they discuss antisemitic vandalism against synagogues in a positive fashion, and where YOU post similar disapproving entries?"

Currently Rantburg is the only foreign political forum I participate in, and given my limited time this month it's the only political forum period. And I've never participated in Islamic or skinhead discussion groups.

"Care to present REAL proof of your impartiality?"

Who said anything about me being impartial? I'm the opposite: I'm consistently biased against murder, terrorism and bigotry. :-)

And no, actually, I don't care to submit to your examination of me, which I find offensive, but I will regardless.

http://groups.google.com.gr/groups?selm=akfqre%2426%241%40usenet.otenet.gr&rnum=2

http://groups.google.com.gr/groups?selm=19990919160701.02687.00002190%40ng-cd1.aol.com&rnum=4

http://groups.google.com.gr/groups?selm=7sj825%24jv5%241%40newssrv.otenet.gr&rnum=5

http://groups.google.com.gr/groups?selm=9tim9f%242d6d%241%40ulysses.noc.ntua.gr&rnum=15

How about you, care to present REAL proof that you aren't beating your wife and children?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-20 9:46:55 PM|| 2004-06-20 9:46:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 A mosque in Brooklyn that funneled money to Islamist terror groups has,since 9/11,not suffered so much as a broken window.There has not been a SINGLE documented case of post 9/11 revenge murder in the US.(If you mention the case in Texas where the killer mistakenly killed a Sikh who was wearing a turban,you will merely highlight the lack of other such attacks in the US against Muslims)

Posted by WhiteHouseDetox 2004-06-20 11:35:03 PM|| 2004-06-20 11:35:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 I agree with Frank G. This is a put up job. Real vandals don't use crayons, they use sledgehammers and spray paint. Also, "Kill all Muslims" doesn't ring true. I can think of many things that I might write encouraging the demise of terrorists and their enablers, but "Kill all Muslims" is too lame to be one of them. Of course I do admire their cleverness in forgoing the celebratory gunfire.

Posted by RWV 2004-06-20 11:49:52 PM|| 2004-06-20 11:49:52 PM|| Front Page Top

23:11 OldSpook
22:59 Frank G
22:51 Robert Crawford
22:45 Mr. Davis
22:38 Frank G
22:27 Atomic Conspiracy
21:49 Mark Espinola
01:38 .com
01:23 Super Hose
01:14 Super Hose
01:12 Super Hose
01:12 Quana
01:10 Super Hose
01:07 Super Hose
01:03 Zenster
01:01 someone
00:54 Zenster
00:50 11A5S
00:45 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)
00:23 tu3031
00:11 RWV
00:08 tu3031
00:02 RWV
23:55 Zenster