Article

2004-06-14 Britain

Anti-EU UKIP party makes big gains in European elections

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Posted by Bulldog 2004-06-14 4:14:30 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 We are starting to take our country back.

Read the last paragraph again, we have our Prime Minister in negotiations regarding our defence, foreign policy, tax and social security legislation with bureaucrats from other countries.

How would that play in Preoria eh?

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-06-14 9:25:40 AM|| 2004-06-14 9:25:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 "Whwn you guys get a Constitution together that can be read and understood without having a lawyer at your elbow, give us a call, ok?"

Posted by mojo 2004-06-14 10:42:05 AM|| 2004-06-14 10:42:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Looks like the British had a Howard Beale moment;

"We're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore!"

But if you look at the rest of the results it seems that many nations, each in their own way are saying the same thing.

Apparently Angela Merkel's CDU stomped Schroeders SDP, ending up with close to an absolute majority of the German seats. Many nations returned odd results. So the Eurostatists have got to be scrambling.

Posted by BigEd 2004-06-14 1:52:07 PM|| 2004-06-14 1:52:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 mojo...LOL! We the subjects, herforeto mentioned in sections 1A - 25,938,098C .....

Posted by B 2004-06-14 1:55:04 PM|| 2004-06-14 1:55:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 mojo, BigEd, B - LOL! And all so true.

Tony(UK) - exactly! From the other parties all we hear is a universal "we're (going to be) fighting the UK's corner in Europe". As though that's meant to be inspiring confidence in us. We have to 'fight our corner'? Then what the hell are we doing there?! What's the punishment when it's our brave representatives who are taking the blows? Why should we be bashing away at our neighbours? It was meant to be a free trade zone, not Fight Club, FFS...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-06-14 2:29:28 PM|| 2004-06-14 2:29:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Howard Beale, Rantburg U!

Brits as Europunks? Never, please, Never.

Posted by Lucky 2004-06-14 2:37:57 PM|| 2004-06-14 2:37:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I think I'm, going to use Howard Beale as the poster boy in my next anti-Constitution publicity campaign. Thanks BigEd!

Posted by Bulldog 2004-06-14 2:43:48 PM|| 2004-06-14 2:43:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Bulldog> Then what the hell are we doing there?!

I keep on telling you: What the UK is doing there is "sabotaging". And whining. Lots and lots of whining.

But one thing we agree of is that UK has no role in a union that she sees as hostile.

I'd wish you Godspeed but I'm afraid that the UKIP strengthening will be used as an excuse to "bash away at your neighbours" some more, instead of opting to stop the fight by simply leaving.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-14 2:49:10 PM|| 2004-06-14 2:49:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 mojo - totally agree. One of the reasons I get so pissed off with the EU is that bloody 'constitution'. If we really need one, then why not use a template that's worked fine for 200+ years?

BigEd - we're not there yet, but moving in the right direction. For a picture of what the future might hold, check out this Remember the day Britain left the EU? from The Scotsman newspaper. it's really worth reading ;)

B - it'd be funny if it weren't so bloody spot-on...

BD - quite. I think they're bricking it actually, all the Europhiles in the Tory party are geriatric, and are backing Howard (Tory leader to our American friends) as they need to show party unity. They'll all be gone soon. They're bloody fools though, if they'd followed the UKIP line, they would have wiped the floor with Labour.

The EU started off as 'The Common Market', then it became 'The European Economic Community', then finally 'The European Union'. It needs to be stopped in its tracks, before it becomes 'The Peoples Republic of Europe'. Polls from around Europe are showing that people are more sceptical of the EU. It could be a flash in the pan, but it could be something more interesting...

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-06-14 2:54:10 PM|| 2004-06-14 2:54:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 My take on EU Government problems.

1)The EU Govt. doesn't have the power or responsibility to go along w/its authority.Its bureaucracy can pass any decree it wants,but has neither the power to enforce the decree,nor the responsibility of carrying out the decree.Individual govt.s can safely ignore inconvenient rules/regulations/agreement/etc.,leading to public cynicism,apathy and disrespect.The bureaucracy can issue the most over-reaching,ridiculous,asinine,mind-numbingly comprehensive decree it wants,safe in the knowledge no one in the bureaucracy actually has to make it work.Since there is no way of judging the performance of a bureau/bureaucrat by seeing how well they implement the assorted decrees,the standard of rating performance becomes how much paperwork did they create.(Note:French EU Parliament members were recently criticised as lazy because they didn't write as many reports as other members!)When the bureaucracy's decrees are implemented by national govt.s,any complaints are met w/"Hey,the EU passed it,take it up w/them."This leads to furthe public anger as now no can be held accountable.

2)The chief flaw in the current EU Government is the lack of a strong(or any at all)executive power to oversee bureaucracy and to be held accountable for it.This is because the believers in a United Europe,a UE where national govt.s are memories and the nation-states have evolved into colorful regions of a United Europe,do not believe they can sell their vision to the public.So the UE true-believers have adopted the technique of gradually installing the UE government on Europe:we can agree common trade policies are good,so let's set up a body to coordinate trade issues,and we don't want them unsupervised,so let's set up an elected body to keep an eye on them,and so on,and so on...

But a strong executive requires real powers,the power to tax,to enforce its rules,to protect itself and its people,in other words to act as a government,not a bureaucracy.It would require a complementary judiciary,and in a democratic society,a legislature to provide checks on executives power.The current EU "constitution" is attempt to create the basis for such an executive.But still afraid to ask for what they really want,the UErs are trying to use the national governments as partners in governing,instead of abolishing the national governments.(For an idea of what current EU constituion would be like,imagine US Federal Government consisting only of President,House of Representatives,State Department,Treasury-but no IRS,no Federal courts except Supreme Court,OSHA,EPA,FDA,NASA,FBI and no armed forces except Marine Corps.)The proposed constitution is so wordy because it is a compromise.A constitution like US would have to be for a United States of Europe that essentially does away w/nation-states.It is what the UErs want,but they don't believe the people support them,so they make do w/half-measures and deceptions until they get the Europe they want.

But by trying to impose a government on the people the UErs are risking popular revolt that will undue all their work.Instead of this deceptive monstrosity,the believers in a One Europe should be trying to gain control of education and establish common,European-wide education(have to pick a language as European language-English or Latin would be best choices) creating basis for common European culture that would evolve into a United Europe w/in couple generations.

Posted by Stephen 2004-06-14 4:46:51 PM|| 2004-06-14 4:46:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Is not the bottom line of the EU become a sort of Homogeneous Hegemony? That is everyone is supposed to be alike although there are cultural nuances that are going to prevent this process that the Eurostatists don't see? (to say nothing of a language thing. What are they going to do? Force everyone to learn Esperanto?)

Sitting here "across the pond", my heart goes out to the British who seem to be the only ones in large seeing the problems of the EU structure clearly.

Is this a Roman Empire redux?

Posted by BigEd 2004-06-14 5:23:11 PM|| 2004-06-14 5:23:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Sitting here "across the pond", my heart goes out to the British who seem to be the only ones in large seeing the problems of the EU structure clearly

Don't believe the UK is the only hold out. I'll show my ignorance and lack of a damn by guessing Denmark and Norway at least feel the same way.

Posted by Shipman 2004-06-14 5:46:59 PM|| 2004-06-14 5:46:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Shipman - Norway voted No on entry several years ago in a referendum! They sit fat and happy like Switzerland watching the manure toss from the outside.

Posted by BigEd 2004-06-14 6:08:48 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:08:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I should also add that Klaus, the Czech president has had cautionary words. But he is one person.

Posted by BigEd 2004-06-14 6:10:53 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:10:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aris is right - we should just leave. The British are mad because Bush lied and Blair did too.

Posted by Jennifer 2004-06-14 6:15:29 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:15:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Come again Jennifer? I mean I got the first bit - I agree with that. It's the second sentence that got me.

Oh, we're talking about Iraq are we?

If it was all about Iraq then RESPECT (spit) would have done well, wouldn't they? ....and they didn't, did they?

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-06-14 6:35:53 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:35:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Norway doesn't need to join the EU for the same reason why the UK doesn't need the Euro. Why was the Euro created? To facilitate trade. Instead of dealing with 20 currencies, merchants have only one to worry about. The goal has already been accomplished. There's not a big incentive for any remaining hold outs to join the Euro. Same with the EU in general.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-14 6:36:53 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:36:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Shipman> As BigEd said, Norway's not a part of the EU. As for Denmark it has done the honourable thing: asked and been given lots of opt-outs, it isn't part of the Eurozone, it won't ever take part in any defense treaty, etc, etc -- but at the same time it hasn't stopped the rest of the Union from going ahead with these things on their own.

BigEd> As for EU being a Roman Empire redux, except on a voluntary basis, not one derived of conquest. If we're an empire then we're the only one in the history of the world that has expanded only through countries voting to join us, and the only one that has never forced a territory to remain part of us.

Stephen> You can't pick a "language", nor "take control of education". Even inside nations, different school often teach linguistic minorities. It's sheer stupidity to think we can create a "language for Europe" by force.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-14 6:40:42 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:40:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 but at the same time it hasn't stopped the rest of the Union from going ahead with these things on their own.

Probably because Denmark does not have the power to influence these things either way. So...it stays out.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-14 6:42:47 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:42:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 expanded only through countries voting to join us, and the only one that has never forced a territory to remain part of us.

Both of your assertions are dubious at best. The latter is moot. For example, the recent EU entrants had no choice, practically speaking.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-14 6:46:33 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:46:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 There's not a big incentive for any remaining hold outs to join the Euro.

I don't know much about economics, but I believe the currencies/economies of minor countries might still be subject of attack -- I think Soros recently attacked the currency of Slovakia?

Anything, I believe (but again am not sure) that the accession treaties of the ten new nations, specify that these countries will also join the Euro when they satisfy the specific economic criteria.

After all there are still lots of different currencies in Eastern Europe. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-14 6:52:07 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:52:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Anything=Anyway

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-14 6:57:48 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:57:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 when they satisfy the specific economic criteria.

And I wonder if this will be a moving target. In any case, I'm assuming all the EU newbies will join in a matter of months, maybe a couple of years at most.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-14 7:02:44 PM|| 2004-06-14 7:02:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Aris,it may be sheer stupidity,but the surest way to create a Common Europe would be for a common culture and an essential component of that culture would be a common language.If the effort that's been put into the EU bureaucracy and assorted constitutions and Treatys had been spent on campaigning for first common Euro education standards,then common courses,a common European education system would have evolved w/out the need for force.As a component of a common education,a common language would be taught-along w/"native" languages for a while.An agreement on which language would be difficult to get but the end results would have done more to further a United Europe than all the Treatys,meetings and constitutions combined.

Posted by Stephen 2004-06-14 7:42:29 PM|| 2004-06-14 7:42:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Rafael> I think that with the exception of Cyprus the rest of the countries are a bit further away actually, certainly not "months" and unlikely to be a couple of years either. Perhaps half a decade or even a full decade, would be my guess.

Stephen> Most countries already teach a second language at schools I believe -- certainly Greece teaches English, even though they start to teach it at Junior high (or atleast they did when I was going there).

That doesn't create a common language. It simply creates some small knowledge of a second language. There's neither incentive nor desire to break away from our pasts. The European Union will never be as homogeneous as the United States -- nor is there any belief that it *should* be.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-14 7:54:18 PM|| 2004-06-14 7:54:18 PM|| Front Page Top

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