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2004-06-06 Home Front: Culture Wars

Leftist hate and rage against Reagan on message boards

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Posted by Anonymous American 82 2004-06-06 5:29:27 PM|| || Front Page|| [11139 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I was surprised at the negativity of comments even at Winds of Change! But then I reflected on the revolution this man started. Before he came to office the leftists had firm control of all three branches of government for most of 50 years, not to mention the Soviet Union. Today, they are only barely holding onto what remains of their influence in the judiciary and the Soviet Union is a bad memory. Quite a fall in 20 years. And primarily because of him. No wonder they still smart when his name comes up. They also hate that his standing will only rise as they leave academia and the children who grew up in his America start to write history.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-06-06 6:22:22 PM|| 2004-06-06 6:22:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 you would think Leftys would appreciate rewriting history, they are so proficient at it....

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-06 6:27:28 PM|| 2004-06-06 6:27:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 touche

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-06-06 6:32:59 PM|| 2004-06-06 6:32:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Ronnie always got the last laugh. I am sure he will have a great influence in heaven also. So when it comes time for these leftist pinko commie worshiping pukes, I can imagine Ronnie looking over to St Peter and giving the thumbs down when they come knock knock knocking on heavens door!! The trap door will open and down they go into the Government worshiping place known as HELL!!

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-06-06 6:33:33 PM|| 2004-06-06 6:33:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#5
Mr Reagan will not be forgotten for ignoring the plight of those Americans suffering with AIDS.

Yep. President Reagan ignored it so bad it became the most highly funded disease in existence, catching it entitled you to protected minority status, and every American household received an education brochure about it, how it's spread, and how it's not spread.

If only President Reagan had paid as much attention to the plight of AIDS sufferers as, say, Saint Castro! Then all the AIDS patients would be safe and sound within their ~~concentration camps~~ dedicated hospitals, ~~left to die alone~~ receiving the best medical care available!

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-06 6:58:37 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-06-06 6:58:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 What I cannot understand is the venom and hatred these people have. Do they honestly believe the things they say?

When Carter, Clinton, or even Ted Kennedy to pass away, I would not post such crap and spew such hatred. I'd try to say at least some of the good that each has done - and in the case of The Swimmer, I'd even go out of my way to look hard to find the good things he might have helped do.

They are so twisted, bilious and self poisoning. It boggles my mind - I cannot concieve allowing myself and my world to be so warped by hatred.

What is wrong with these people?

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-06 8:14:25 PM|| 2004-06-06 8:14:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 they don't deserve the "people" designation, they've chosen to become subhuman

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-06 8:28:03 PM|| 2004-06-06 8:28:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 OldSpook, the answer is cognitive dissonance. Marxism and consequently all its variants teaches that social forces, not individuals shape history. So when an individual like Reagan comes along and both tries and succeeds in shaping history it threatens to undermine their worldview, and as a consequence they lash out with venom and denial.

Posted by Phil B 2004-06-06 8:28:06 PM|| 2004-06-06 8:28:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 There's another factor at work, too - and it also shapes the hatred of Bush.

Reagan had moral clarity. He felt, thought and said: some things are right, some things are wrong, some things are simply evil and must be opposed.

Strikes at the very core of the post-modern relativistic world view. And it would be amusing - were it not so sad and alarming - to see how un-nuanced the resulting reaction is. Sigh.

Posted by rkb 2004-06-06 9:18:13 PM|| 2004-06-06 9:18:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 What I cannot understand is the venom and hatred these people have. Do they honestly believe the things they say?

Yes.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-06 10:14:53 PM|| 2004-06-06 10:14:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I wonder if the greater problem is that these people like to think everything's fine, that everyone's harmless, but screwed up in a way such that only THEY and their "ideas" can fix it (i.e. take power and do the dictator thing). They want influence. They will say whatever they need to, do whatever they can to discredit those who are more capable, more intelligent, more grounded, and more sane. Dissonance is the right word for it; they want the world a certain way, and will do whatever they need to do to make it that way, yet they also don't want things to change (complaining about going to war, etc.). They work more through subversion than overt action, because they know, on some level, that if they were to openly declare what they really believe, they'd be tarred and feathered.

I'm becoming convinced that the difference between liberals and conservatives in a nutshell: conservatives are grounded in reality, liberals are stuck in a fantasy world.

Phil, in addition to the problems that liberals' cognitive dissonance creates when a great man like Reagan comes along, there's the tiny dilemma of the collapse of their wonderous Soviet Union, which he helped to bring about.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-06 10:25:33 PM|| 2004-06-06 10:25:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 conservatives are grounded in reality, liberals are stuck in a fantasy world.

It's not fantasy that the Reagan administration sold weapons to the Iranians. It's reality.

And it's also not fantasy that Reagan didn't even mention AIDS in public until October 1987. By the end of that year almost 30000 Americans had died of that growing epidemic.

If the *SARS* epidemic had struck USA and killed tens of thousands in a few years -- can you imagine a modern-day American president not being quite a bit faster than Reagan was in talking about it?

Reagan confronted the Soviet Union and the world must be grateful to him for *that*. But he *did* also support the Islamofascists of Irani with weapons, and he did fail to give a damn about AIDS until many many years had passed.

That's *also* reality.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-06 10:39:30 PM|| 2004-06-06 10:39:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris, nobody was doing anything about AIDS back then, we had Nuclear Annihilation to worry about, not how people were having sex. Also, what makes you think it would have done any good? The millions of condoms we give to Africa and Billions of dollars we spend in warning the whole bloody continent haven't worked a bit.

As for Contra-Iran scandal, he stepped up and took responsibility for it even though he didn't know until it was too late! Lets face it, the hostages were released in Iran under that deal right after Reagan was elected. But he hadn't taken office yet. The thing everyone forgets is that it was still ol' Jimma's term when the deal was made. If it's not AIDS it's scandals, not scandals then it's war, not war then it's not making war. What's next, you going to blame him for alienating the USSR in the 80's?

Posted by Charles 2004-06-06 11:08:42 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:08:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Pro-Euro liberal like Carter appeals to folks like Aris. They can do no wrong, even when they have done wrong, right Aris?

Posted by badanov 2004-06-06 11:13:33 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-06-06 11:13:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 The enemy within (leftists) would sell out to the Islamic terrorists at the drop of a hat if it would harm the current President the hate so much.

They also hated Reagan because he was real, a hero's hero!

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-06-06 11:18:03 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:18:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Charles, badanov>

Iran-contra happened in 1985, you utter and complete idiots.

Perhaps *you* don't know when Carter left office, but *I* am quite aware of it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-06 11:26:27 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:26:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 And bananov, btw, you are a quite good example of why I have contempt for so many people here. Not only do you talk out of your ass, not only do you generalize and offend, you also choose to take the role of the mindlessly sycophantic chorus.

Check the accuracy of my facts versus Charles', *then* play the part of the yes-man.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-06 11:34:01 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:34:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 *Equivalency At Work*

Fate of Free World = 4 or 5 slips / Second-guessable actions in 8 Years

Like a little dog, pissing on everyone's shoes.

Posted by .com 2004-06-06 11:35:03 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:35:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 'Anonymous American' How dare you even breathe the name 'American' after that hate speech against President Reagan.

The Iron Lady, one of the UK's all time great insightful leaders stated the following:

âPresident Reagan was one of my closest political and dearest personal friends.

âHe will be missed not only by those who new him and not only by the nation that he served so proudly and loved so deeply, but also by millions of men and women who live in freedom today because of the policies he pursued.

âRonald Reagan had a higher claim than any other leader to have won the Cold War for liberty and he did it without a shot being fired.

âTo have achieved so much against so odds and with such humour and humanity made Ronald Reagan a truly great American hero.â

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-06-06 11:47:44 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:47:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Aris, you shit-for-brains fuckface and pucker sucker of old men, where did Charles or Badanov say "Iran-contra" didn't happen in '85?
Moron.

Posted by abbadon 2004-06-06 11:52:58 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:52:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 abbadon> When they said that Carter was to blame. You moron.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-06 11:54:22 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:54:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Mark Espinola - I think Anon American was the one who posted this - not the one who wrote it. The writer is some pogue over at the Denverpost.com message board.

AA 82... hmm 82nd Airborne vet?

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-06 11:58:40 PM|| 2004-06-06 11:58:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Aris, they've just confused which group of hostages were involved. They're thinking about the embassy hostages instead of the Beirut hostages.

God forbid you should ever misunderstand something or make a mistake.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-06 11:58:51 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-06-06 11:58:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#24

[I]t's also not fantasy that Reagan didn't even mention AIDS in public until October 1987.

Actually, it is, you lying ungrateful turd.

Posted by someone 2004-06-07 12:00:09 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:00:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Funny that a post about leftist hate and rage draws, well, leftist hate and rage...

Posted by someone 2004-06-07 12:03:00 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:03:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 When ones insults another, then you better apologize to them if they simply "made a mistake".

Therefore I'm expecting apologies from badanov and abaddon. And I'm extending my own apology to Charles whom I unfortunately grouped with badanov after being angered by the latter's utter assholey moronicness and lackey-dom.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:03:28 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:03:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Actually Robert, I think Aris is just confused by the mere mention of "hostages" and "Iran-contra" in the same paragraph.

Posted by abbadon 2004-06-07 12:04:42 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:04:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 someone> The page you linked claims it was in the state of union address of October 1986.

But I'm reading that same address:

http://www.thisnation.com/library/sotu/1986rr.html
http://www.janda.org/politxts/State%20of%20Union%20Addresses/1981-1988%20Reagan/RWR86.html
http://www.geocities.com/americanpresidencynet/1986.htm

And I've not been able to find the passage in question.

So, I'm guessing the page you linked to simply lies. Once again, I'm correct and you are wrong and base your insults upon your errors.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:11:55 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:11:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 February, not October.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:12:29 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:12:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 So, I'm expecting an apology from "someone" as well, for calling me a "lying turd" when I actually spoke the truth, and when it was he that linked to lies.

Will I get such an apology? Highly unlikely. Anything is allowed when people have to defend their fanaticism after all, right?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:18:25 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:18:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 He said it in September 1985, as Murdock says. In 1986 it was actually a speech two days after the SoTU.

Now apologize to President Reagan, whose dropped jelly beans you aren't fit to clean.

Posted by someone 2004-06-07 12:23:48 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:23:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Here you go, Aris, and I'll expect an apology from you for being too much of a crusty cusk to do your own googling.
http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2003/1217.asp

Posted by abbadon 2004-06-07 12:30:36 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:30:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 I stand corrected. More than one sites had October 1987 be his first mention of AIDS in public.

But I still expect an apology from you.

Now apologize to President Reagan

Apologies are for the living, not the dead. If I've inadvertently offered inaccurate info, I apologize to this forum.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:31:20 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:31:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 abbadon> I've wasted quite a lot more time of my life googling up correct info and offering it to intentionally ignorant asses over here than I see fit. I have offered statistics, I have offered factual info, I have offered pieces on human rights and political progress when most others here just like to generalize and stereotype. When others talked about the european constitution as a thing of the twilight zone I was giving you links to specific articles -- when others talked out of their asses about the accession treaties of the EU I was linking to them.

So, abaddon, screw you dearie. If I cared enough about the accuracy of info I give, to look up three different version of the same state of the union address, then it's NOT me who should apologize for not caring enough for truth.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:39:12 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:39:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Let me get this straight... Charles and Badanov got cussed out for being wrong (among other things) when they really weren't that wrong, and I have to offer apologies for cussing out the cusser outter?
That's a mighty interesting logic you've got there.

Posted by abbadon 2004-06-07 12:47:53 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:47:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 What do you expect, Aris, when you advocate the EU's corporatist fascism over and over again on this board? You are always going to projectile vomit on advocates of individual liberty and genuine humanism. It took me about 5 minutes to find out the information on the February speech via Google, from sites not beholden to fond memories of Ronnie Reagan.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-06-07 12:49:54 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 12:49:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 No, Badanov got cussed out for insulting me. And he and Charles were as wrong as you can get.

You on the other hand have to offer apologies for saying "Aris, you shit-for-brains fuckface and pucker sucker of old men, where did Charles or Badanov say "Iran-contra" didn't happen in '85? Moron.

To which I responded "When they blamed Carter for it. Moron."

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:51:25 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:51:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 Here is what I wrote: Just opinion:

Pro-Euro liberal like Carter appeals to folks like Aris. They can do no wrong, even when they have done wrong, right Aris?

That made Aris mad as it was intended to do.

And Aris: If I made you mad?

Mission Accomplished!

I know you just LURVE that phrase! ;o)

Posted by badanov 2004-06-07 12:51:27 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-06-07 12:51:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 Everyone should keep the permlink to this article. You KNOW you'll wish you had at some point in the future.

Posted by .com 2004-06-07 12:56:53 AM|| 2004-06-07 12:56:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 And Badanov admits himself a troll.

Ernest Brown, the page "someone" linked to, claimed that it was the State of the Union address said these things. How *exactly* was I supposed to guess that it wasn't the State of
the Union address afterall? I checked the address of the next year in case the author had simply messed up the date. But it wasn't that.

As for the "corporatist fascism" crap, screw that. It's not me in this forum who'd been disappointed that the Turkish generals wouldn't be overthrowing the Turkish democracy any time soon in order to install pro-US position. It's not me in this forum who'd been ecstatic at how czar-like tyrannical Putin is. It's not me who's urged for people of opposite opinions to be rounded up and imprisoned, for American citizenships to be taken away of people who've not supported Bush or whatever.

So don't even pretend to claim that I've ever advocated fascism. EU has been a force for good in *defeating* all remaining fascist tendencies in eastern Europe and Turkey -- as you could have seen in Freedom House.

But hey, it's not me who's supported strengthening the dictatorships and semi-dictatorship of the new Soviet block, as a way to defeat the democracies of the EU either. That was other people in this forum.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 1:02:10 AM|| 2004-06-07 1:02:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 .com> Yeah, I'm keeping the link also. So that whenever you lie again (as you've lied in the past) about how I supposedly never recognize any mistake I make, I will be able to gleefully point you to this thread and show your lies for what they are.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 1:07:36 AM|| 2004-06-07 1:07:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 .com: Btw, can you search Rantburg? Because I don't seem to be among the elect for whom it's enabled.

Posted by someone 2004-06-07 1:14:06 AM|| 2004-06-07 1:14:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 someone - Nope. Not I.

Aris The Grate - What's funny is that the one time I well and truly fucked up in a discussion with you, it was precisely the same sort of situation - I didnt follow the links all the way out, made matter of fact statements that were wrong, and you skewered me good for it. And I stopped when I realized I had fucked up.

Here, though the topic is quite different, the result is the same. You fucked up. Factually. S'okay, even the Never FACTUALLY Wrong Aris The Grate sometimes fucks up - and is FACTUALLY wrong.

Had you STFU and taken it like a man, I wouldn't have said a word. But your ego exceeds you IQ by a far wider margin than I suffer from, so you began weasling around, mewling about this and that being at fault, not you, then shifting the topic off your mistake, and whining about other shit.

You are a cowardly sort. Gutless. Before, I merely disliked your BS. I now disrespect you.

No one in Rantburg should ever engage or address you or anything you post, ever again, as you've shown yourself unworthy of notice.

Get a fucking credit card and make a big donation, son. You've been living off of Fred and the rest of us far too long.

Posted by .com 2004-06-07 1:27:25 AM|| 2004-06-07 1:27:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 To much energy is wasted on the goat fucker....
Greek boy is delusional, and is part of a oxymoronic socialist confused cluster fuck of countries. Greeks are ingrate sodomists.

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-06-07 1:42:44 AM|| 2004-06-07 1:42:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 I didnt follow the links all the way out, made matter of fact statements that were wrong, and you skewered me good for it.

No, I skewered you good NOT because you were simply "wrong" or had failed to follow links all the way out, but because you had repeatedly insulted me when I had (initially) politely attempted to correct you. You had repeatedly attacked me when I had done nothing but offer truth. In particular you had said

"Lol! Aris, you're so full of bullshit it's amazing. Did a little Googling, did ya, on David Glasser? Pfeh, you're a disingenuous goof: it was David GlassNer, not Glasser, that your boy Mohammad "Adam" linked to. Who is a kid attending MIT. Next time you wanna bluff or post bullshit, go more than one level into it, K? Wotta joke."

And when I offered you again the specific links that proved you wrong, you refused to apologize yet again and insulted me some more, accusing me of some sort of obscure conspiracy. In particular you said: "You brought Glasser into this because either you're a twit cuz you don't pay attention or you're a disingenuous blowhard and he's just a canard."

And then a third time we had repeated the exercise -- I offering you info, you insulting me because they were sheer factual truth.

And then a fourth time.

This was the thread: http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&D=2004-04-11&ID=30223

In *this* thread on the other hand, I've been called "a sucker pucker of old men" by abaddon because I said that Charles and badanov didn't know that Iran-Contra happened long after the end of the Carter administration.

Which indeed they didn't know.

In short, in both times I've been insulted by idiots for offering truth.

And in contrast, *I* accepted my mistake when I was offered the link that showed me wrong, and you on the other hand simply chose to insult me ten times with each link I gave you. Which btw didn't require any search at all, a single click would have shown your mistake.

As opposed to me, who would have had to guess which speech this Reagan thing was about because the links I was first offered were wrong.

In short you are still the hypocrite here.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 1:49:13 AM|| 2004-06-07 1:49:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 You disagree that when I realized I was wrong I stopped. Okay, I'm guilty. In that thread I fucked up and took too long to realize it. When I realized I was wrong I stopped. I certainly did not try to pawn my mistake off on you or anyone else.

And what you've posted negates nothing I said about you and your behavior in this thread. You have yet to accept your mistake without prevarication and weasling. Ironic you should use the word, for you've demonstrate what a hypocrite you are for precisely the same reasons you throw at me. I fucked up - and so did you. I accepted my whipping - and here you are STILL mewling like a fucking child and attempting to obfuscate in order to avoid your moment. Gutless coward. Fuck off, you've had enough time and chances, now.

Now get a fucking credit card you leech and pony up a big donation to Fred, who is too courteous a host to ban you, for your incredibly windy posts on RB. Or are you without honor, as well? Hell, don't answer, just do it.

That pretty much covers it. Aris, you don't exist.

Posted by .com 2004-06-07 2:17:21 AM|| 2004-06-07 2:17:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 There's a big difference between expressing temporary anger at a faithless "ally" and wishing for the permanent repeal of individual freedom for an entire continent, but then you never were very nuanced, eh Aris? Turkey, at least, had a legitimate complaint against us for leaving them in the lurch after Ozal helped us in GWI.

It's funny how making high-sounding noises about freedom is an avocation of Euro-statists, but the muscle to actually accomplish anything along those lines comes from across the Atlantic. From the point of view of a classical liberal, it's too bad that the EU doesn't see individual liberty as the paramount value for its own putative "citizens." How wonderful for the EU to replace overt dictatorships with its own brand of Kafkaesque boot-stamping-into-a-human-face-forever bureaucratic tyranny. Color me unimpressed.

As for -you,- Aris, your addiction to tu quoque is just one of the reasons that you are met with derision. The fact that you attack "nationalism" while kicking up your nativist bigotry and ethnocentrism to the level of the EU instead of Greece is a big laugh, for a start, and just why we're skeptical of the Union's "ability" to solve the "problem" of "nationalism"...

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-06-07 9:34:50 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 9:34:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#48 You didn't stop, dearie, when you realized your mistake. As I said you insulted and kept on insulting. Even after you supposedly "recognized your mistake" you kept on insulting and lying. After "recognizing your mistake" instead of apologizing, you started lying about me instead, claiming that I had somehow called myself error-free, a lie of yours that you keep on repeating through insinuations in following threads and this one also.

You say I'm "weasling"? No, I'm not. I accepted the mistake I made and unlike you I did *not* insult people for correcting me. I did insult them for being moronic trolls and petty bullies however.

And unless Fred appointed you his manager of finances, stop the whole "shaming" attempt that basically goes "only the prosperous are allowed to post here, so you should be ashamed that you don't have a credit card".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 9:35:28 AM|| 2004-06-07 9:35:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#49 There's a big difference between expressing temporary anger at a faithless "ally" and wishing for the permanent repeal of individual freedom for an entire continent,

Yes, there indeed is. For example the way that several people here want a forced dissolution of the EU, against what is currently the desire of most EU citizens seems to me like a desire on your part to repeal freedom throughout the European continent.

The fact that people seriously said that you should look into supporting the dictatorial neo-Soviet block (Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, central Asia) against the EU is further proof of that.

The fact that people here wanted the Turkish generals to overthrow Turkey's democracy in order to install pro-US positions is also proof of that. That's not simply "temporary frustration". That's being enemies of freedom and democracy, except when it suits your purpose. And in case people hete yet again "accidentally" "misunderstand", I'm not talking about the *US* being such an enemy of freedom and democracy, I'm talking about those people here who advocate these things.

It's funny how making high-sounding noises about freedom is an avocation of Euro-statists, but the muscle to actually accomplish anything along those lines comes from across the Atlantic.

Yeah, Europe is militarily weak. We know that. It's also somehow irrelevant to the indisputable fact that the EU has supported and helped democracy and individual liberties throught the Union. Every EU citizen (and even beyond that) knows that they can appeal to the EU court, if their rights are violated on a national level. Every progress in favour of freedom in Turkey in the last years has to the greatest extent been because of the influence of the EU.

But I guess Turkey isn't part of the real world, so democracy and freedom there don't count. Democracy and freedom and being a force for good is important only in the places where the Bush administration says it's important, right?

So, as one-eyed as always, you only see what USA is doing currently in Iraq, and fail to see what the EU is slowly but steadily accomplishing in half a continent.

How wonderful for the EU to replace overt dictatorships with its own brand of Kafkaesque boot-stamping-into-a-human-face-forever bureaucratic tyranny

Oh, what nice big words, all serving to hide the plain fact that the EU has increased, not limited freedoms. Freedom of transportation. Freedom of employment. Freedom of even non-nationals to vote in their place of residence.

I notice you don't mention any actual examples to the contrary. Any examples where the EU is limiting citizens in a way that the nation-states wouldn't have been able to.

The fact that you attack "nationalism" while kicking up your nativist bigotry and ethnocentrism to the level of the EU instead of Greece is a big laugh,

EU is a good first step towards the right direction -- currently the topmost possible, as a global community of democracies doesn't seem accomplishable. I'd have deserved the "big laugh", if I had wanted it to stop at the EU level. Or if I had gleefully desired the dissolution of the USA, the same way people here have asked the dissolution of the EU.

But my argument is constantly in favour of the voluntary union of democratic peoples.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 9:55:15 AM|| 2004-06-07 9:55:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#50 Aris, I was going to slap you around a little for being the cause of this thread going on far to long, to too little result. But I found I agree with your last post and the future does lie with democracies meeting certain standards working together to solve the world's problem (and I accept that democracies disagree). Of course this requires the dissolution of the UN.

Posted by Phil B 2004-06-07 10:08:34 AM|| 2004-06-07 10:08:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#51 Despite all the bandwidth and effort expended to research "facts" and sling them around in this debate, I have not learned anything new, having heard it all before 20 years ago. Circumstances change dramatically, but the one constant is that the left hates Republican presidents. It is fascinating, if depressing, to watch the replay of the same old leftist seething under Bush.

Posted by virginian 2004-06-07 10:33:06 AM|| 2004-06-07 10:33:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#52 "but the one constant is that the left hates Republican presidents"

Actually on the whole I more like than dislike Reagan. He may have been horrible with the Middle-east but he did what he should with the Soviet Union. So, the balance falls more on his favour than against him.

And if I'm part of the left you are referring to, then I have to say that I love Lincoln, also a Republican. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 10:38:27 AM|| 2004-06-07 10:38:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#53 I don't know if you are of the left or not Aris. I was referring mainly to several posts here quoting DU type blog sites. Another way of making my point is that the real debate is about values, not facts, and that is why these debates are endless. I remember the debates during Reagan's time. The left had their issues, Iran/Contra being perhaps the most significant one, but those things seem to have faded in importance in the light of history and in the light of Reagan's character. Having observed politics over some 40 years now, I find that the only reliable predictor of attitudes is which side you are on, not what the facts or circumstances are.

Posted by virginian 2004-06-07 10:57:54 AM|| 2004-06-07 10:57:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#54 Aris,

Considering the fact that the EU parliament has bupkis to do with the real power of the EU apparat, I don't believe that the "voluntary union of democratic peoples" in a classic fascistic bureaucracy is going to facilitate anything other than the manipulation of the system that France and Germany are committing right now. As for the EU court, I'm sure that it will be just as effective at protecting the rights of EU citizens as the World Court at the Hague is in prosecuting Slobodan Milosevic.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-06-07 11:54:13 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 11:54:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#55 P.S. ...and if anyone was stupid enough to think that the Turkish Generals were that much more sympathetic to allowing us through Turkey to attack Iraq, then I say let them stew in their own juices like you, Aris.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-06-07 11:59:19 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 11:59:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#56 Don't refer to the EU court as a thing of the future whose effectiveness in protecting rights "will be" or "won't be". It has been protecting them already.

The last 30 years Greece has been experiencing some of the longest and most stable democracy in its history. As in *ever*. Personally I blame it on the EU. I have seen quite well the forces that'd have been more than glad to overthrow freedoms -- and I have seen how it's been the EU's presence that has hindered them at each turn until democratic maturity slowly (but even now, not yet completely) took root in Greece. Every would-be tyrant, on the right or on the left, knows that if they push too far towards restrictions of freedoms, they will be taken to the EU court.

THIS ISN'T A HYPOTHETICAL! It has happened already.

"Considering the fact that the EU parliament has bupkis to do with the real power of the EU apparat"

Considering the fact that the elected governments of the member-states do however have lots and lots to do with the real power of the EU apparat...

The system is currently confederal, rather than federal. Both true and unfortunate, and the democratic deficit is real -- but that doesn't make the voluntary union any less voluntary. Remember all those polls yesteryear?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 12:09:07 PM|| 2004-06-07 12:09:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 "Both true and unfortunate, and the democratic deficit is real -- but that doesn't make the voluntary union any less voluntary."

One can eliminate one's freedoms via the democratic method quite easily.

"Remember all those polls yesteryear?"

A tragic example of short-term thinking vs. the long term freedom to develop economies and a wish for the false promise of cradle-to-grave social "democracy" which is not sustainable on actuarial or economic grounds is hardly grounds for celebration.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-06-07 12:22:37 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 12:22:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 "Both true and unfortunate, and the democratic deficit is real."

And the increase in bureacratic fasicsm will never diminish, only grow worse. I'm hardly interested in mooing "EU bad, US good," the increase of the bureaucratic state is bad enough here. It's going to be (and is now) disasterous in Europe.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-06-07 12:26:24 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 12:26:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Check out the following article on EU featherbedding and nepotism, especially the end!:

Greeks cave in, join in protest of perks

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-06-07 5:52:02 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 5:52:02 PM|| Front Page Top

17:52 Ernest Brown
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01:42 Long Hair Republican
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