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2004-05-29 Europe

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Posted by Prince Abdullah 2004-05-29 5:04:08 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Fuck the pope. Who gives a tinker's damn what he says? Sure, he's a decent man. But, a man nonetheless. He is NOT God's "agent". Jesus says; "No man cometh to the Father, but my ME." We are to pray to Jesus, not some other sinner(Pope), for forgiveness.

I/we have a direct line to God, through His Son Jesus Christ. Sure, the virgin Mary was a special woman. But, she can't forgive our sins. The Pope can't forgive our sins. Fred, the drunk down the street, can't forgive our sins. Only Jesus!!

Posted by Halfass Pete 2004-05-29 1:41:47 PM|| 2004-05-29 1:41:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 HP, get off the drugs. This may be your last chance.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-29 1:44:44 PM|| 2004-05-29 1:44:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 This is John Paul in denial. The Catholic Church is losing people in droves to the Evangelicals, Mormons, and other faiths. Rather than blaming the losses on the Church, he's blaming it on the flock. "The Church can't be wrong, so it must be the laity."

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-29 1:45:59 PM|| 2004-05-29 1:45:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Pete> But, she can't forgive our sins. The Pope can't forgive our sins. Fred, the drunk down the street, can't forgive our sins. Only Jesus!!

John 20:22-20:24: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

--

If you believe that kind of thing, ofcourse, which I don't. But this phrase is, I believe, the foundation for the idea of the mystery of confession (and forgiveness by a priesthood) in both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-29 1:51:21 PM|| 2004-05-29 1:51:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 21-23, not 22-24

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-29 1:54:30 PM|| 2004-05-29 1:54:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Prince Abdullah, it depends on who you ask ;)

*marks Halfass Pete for Protestant-vs-Catholic trolling (Mary's not a "co-redemptrix"? Mel Gibson disagrees :P), then remembers too late that this isn't the Freeper board, and therefore should be allowed to stand* (in-joke ;) )

11A5S, is he blaming the laity? That's not what I'm picking up here, so much as a culture conflict ... 'course, I think he may have been watching too much Jerry Springer ...

Posted by Edward Yee 2004-05-29 2:03:54 PM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2004-05-29 2:03:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Sigh. ;-)

Perhaps many in the world would be surprised by how many Americans are agnostic or atheist, yet are intelligent enough to reject the asinine generalization that those who have a religious belief system are raving Crusaders bent on domination / subjugation. With the glaring exception of Islam, I am one. I see non-Islamic religion as a good and positive thing which gives purpose, organization, peace of mind, and collective capability to do good works for themselves and others. Rock on, [insert favorite flavor here]! I am particularly impressed with how the Mormons take care of their needy as I saw it up close. I'm sure the same is true for most Christian churches - collectively, and with amazingly few exceptions, they are a very positive force in society and the world. Now as for missionaries, well, that's where things get a little hinky...

BUT... Discussing religion on the Internet is about the stupidest and most pointless thing imaginable. If you can't reach out and strangle the SOB who disagrees with you on some point of faith, then it merely frustrates people. It's so much more satisfying to face adversaries directly when discussing the fine points of an unprovable belief system and kick the living shit out of them when they fail to accept the obvious "truth" of your position, IMO.

Everything else, every other topic, can be discussed profitably by both "sides" of an issue.

Posted by .com 2004-05-29 2:10:19 PM|| 2004-05-29 2:10:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 From the Pope's view the US Catholic church is in trouble. It is hemorrhaging members to the Protestant denominations. The priests are cut off from the daily lives of it's flock, losing relevance, and leaving the priesthood. In addition, the funds from the US church to the Vatican (was #1, don't know now) has been reduced. The Boston church is in danger of bankruptcy due to the pederasty lawsuits.

The above can be solved by allowing married priests, like the church originally did and having more participation from the congregation. But, I guess, that would make them Protestants.

Posted by ed 2004-05-29 2:15:27 PM|| 2004-05-29 2:15:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 ...(Europeans) fear that America will go on a 'crusade' (a term briefly used by Mr Bush himself)...

I remember Bush's speech using this word, and I didn't associate it with a bunch of Eurotrash off on a joy-ride/land grab. Instead, I recalled its use by someone else, a little more recently.

From Gen. Eisenhower:

SUPREME HEADQUARTERS ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCE

Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force!

You are about to embark upon the Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you. In company with our brave Allies and brothers-in-arms on other Fronts, you will bring about the destruction of the German war machine, the elimination of Nazi tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world....

Guess the Euros are right. No more nasty crusading Americans in their future, I'm sure. That ought to put their fevered little minds to rest.

Posted by Darth VAda 2004-05-29 2:47:14 PM|| 2004-05-29 2:47:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 11A5 - You misconstrue the Church. As usual outsiders or uneducated (on the Catechism and the Church) miss the point. The Church does not claim perfection - it merely claims to be the Apostolic continuance of Christ's ministry on earth as put forth in the scriptures - and in the doctrines of the early Church that preceded the scriptures. The only real claim is to act with God's blessings when the entire Church is of one mind on a given item.

The Church will speak out, and believe it or not, unlike many other regligious organizations, the Church is not concerned with being popular, as you seem to imply should be its concern. Its concern is with doing right, doing God's will.

The truth is that people and society have separated themselves from the Church and her teachings. The Church recognizes this, accepts it as reality, but agonizes over it. And the Church speaks out - morally it must speak out, loudly. For to remain silent is a sin in itself in circumstances such as these. Silence can kill.

Recognize the truth in the truism attributed to Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Silence can be deadly - remember what Lutheran Reverand Martin Niemoller said when faulting himself and society: "... Then they came for
the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Like a parent seeing a grown child out doing drugs and sleeping around and ruining their life, the Church has a duty to speak out to society, but not to intevene beyond chastizing, informing and recommending (unless it is a matter of life and death). Free will is vital - you must choose to accept God and choose to submit to God's will. Its like getting married: you choose to give up the things in single life, willingly and gladly pick up the burdens of family, but gain life long love. Its not easy, and being imperfect beings sometimes you drift or disagree, but in the end, its your faith and trust and opening your life to another, completely, that sustains you.

Like a parent with a prodigal son, the Church will never condone the immoral and self destructive behavior society engenders, and will not change to accomodate it (like Protestantism does in some instances); but the Church will always welcome the faithful back when they come to truth and return of their own will.

But you and others do misread things about the Catholic Church. It is not for the Church to conform to society, it is for people to conform themsleves to God. The Church is there as the temporal and present Body of Christ - the Body that acts for God who is immanent and transcendant. The Magisterum, and doctrines that have stood for centuries are of immense value for making your way through this mess we call life.

The Sola Scriptura of Protestantism can lead to grave spiritual dangers, and to errors - witness any number of "Strong Leader" cults like Koresh, based on Sola Scriptura protestanism and how dependant they become on the one person who interprets the Holy Words.

Indeed, this is the big problem with Islam in many places - they are very much a Literalist group with rigid doctrines and strongman leaders, and as such are vulnerable to hideous distortions of what bits of God's wisdom that are contained in their faith. A prime example is the whole "72 Virgins" bit.

So throwing away the Church and its Magisterum and Doctrines smacks of foolishness, and frequently ends very badly for all concerned. The Church does change some things over time, as God wills. The addition of duties of the Extraordainary Eucharistic Ministers, the reinstatement Permanent Diaconte, for example.

But on other issues it will NEVER change - and that is the core doctrine of the Sanctity of Life - as reflected in the doctrine of Human Vitae. Life: That is the wellspring of God from which the Church's stands on Abortion, the Death Penalty, Just War, Social Justice, etc all flow.

Myself, I disagree with the Church leadership on how to best acheive these goals (Eurosocialism they favor versus compassionate Capitalism, group oriented policies versus individualism), but not on the roots of the actions. We share a belief that all life has value, that we should protect life, that we should act to ensure life is protected, and that God, not man, is our ultimate judge.

Given my background in the military and intelligence worlds, this doesnt mean the Shepherd cannot kill the wolves when needed. You recognize the wolf for what it is and keep the flock (those who cannot defend themselves) safe, even at sacrifice to yourself. It also means you do not go shooting the wolves for sport, only necessity.

Recognize that evil exists, and is manifest and active in this world.

Be sure to go beyond the analogy: unlike wolves, people can change. God gives redemption if you but ask, genuinely, and repent.

In Sum, the Church does not claim perfection, but it does claim moral authority to speak and act when it sees wrong.

Remember that the last One that was perfect was nailed to a tree 20 centuries ago to die for those of us who can never be perfect: but we can be forgiven if we only ask.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-05-29 3:20:21 PM|| 2004-05-29 3:20:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 "The truth is that people and society have separated themselves from the Church and her teachings. "

FYI - "people" includes the Priesthood and even the Bishops in some cases: witness Cardinal Bernartd Law and the mess he made in Archdiocese of Boston with the pederast in Priests clothing. He covered for them, shuffled papers, and refused to speak out and codmen evil when he saw it. And the people and Church suffered, deservedly, for not doing the right things.

Compare that to the former Archbishop in Denver, for example, - he took action early to find and root out these men, and to console and help the victims. I believe he is now a Cardinal in Rome (Stafford). And the current Archbishop of Denver is quite a good man as well, specking out when he sees evil, but not abbrogating free will of the parishoners.

Perhaps that is why Denver's seminary school is full, and Boston's seminaries are shrinking, why Denver seems to be a growing Church, whiel Boston is shrinking.

Evil extracts a steep price for those who condone it and for the peopel around it, even if its condoning it by inaction or silence.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-05-29 3:28:24 PM|| 2004-05-29 3:28:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Old Spook: I am going to take dotcom's advice and not argue about religion. But for your information, I was baptized, confessed, communed, and confirmed a Catholic. I went to twelve years of parochial and Salesian schools and am very familiar with every one of your arguments. I will be blunt. I have rejected the Church and her teachings. I am a Catholic Kaffir. I still give a lot of money to the Salesians, though.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-29 3:30:00 PM|| 2004-05-29 3:30:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Preshawar. There I said it.

Posted by Shipman 2004-05-29 3:43:38 PM|| 2004-05-29 3:43:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "Anyone who can't respect another person's religious beliefs is a barbarian."

-- Tom Clancy.

Posted by Steve White 2004-05-29 6:14:09 PM|| 2004-05-29 6:14:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "Any man with a bowling alley in his basement is a barbarian." --me

Posted by Zpaz 2004-05-29 6:34:03 PM|| 2004-05-29 6:34:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 allowing married priests The Catholic church does allow married priests. What it doesn't allow is priests to marry. There were a couple of cases in the UK (and for all I know more) of married Anglican priests who converted and became Catholic priests with no requirement for celibacy.

Posted by Phil B 2004-05-29 7:09:04 PM|| 2004-05-29 7:09:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I've heard of that rule, Phil - I know that a senior Anglican cleric (in the wake of the Gene Robinson scandal) in Australia "crossed the Tiber" and linked up with Rome.

Posted by Edward Yee 2004-05-29 7:42:19 PM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2004-05-29 7:42:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 It seems like the Pope has trouble remembering that were it not for us "soulless Americans," his pretty little Vatican would now be sitting on Nazi soil. We'll struggle to ignore how the Catholic "blood libel" facilitated countless pogroms and the very Holocaust itself. I think the Pope needs to spend more time worrying about why his priests are raping little boys and girls.

All those millions of dollars being paid out came from somewhere. If the Church didn't have insurance coverage, that money must have come from a collection plate. Imagine that, tithes and donations going, not for good works, but instead to pay hush money for kids buggered by priests.

Diverting contributions so as to cover up felonious wrongdoing sounds pretty "soulless" to me.

Posted by Zenster 2004-05-29 10:37:52 PM|| 2004-05-29 10:37:52 PM|| Front Page Top

03:54 Dog Bites Trolls
10:37 Anonymous5037
10:27 Anonymous5037
10:25 Anonymous5037
03:18 Dog Bites Trolls
02:40 Dog Bites Trolls
01:00 Outraged
01:02 Outraged
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02:32 God...your Ultimate Holyness
03:12 Anon1
05:58 Mike Sylwester
03:38 Mike Sylwester
02:13 Phil Fraering
01:41 Valentine
01:12 Jen
01:06 Phil_B
01:03 gromky
00:19 .com
00:14 Stephen
00:04 Quana
23:53 Phil_B
23:50 Edward Yee
23:44 .com