Article

2004-05-25 Iraq-Jordan

Holiest Shiite Muslim shrine damaged in Najaf

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Posted by Zenster 2004-05-25 1:47:32 PM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 With al-Sistani and the Shi'ites, we will always be walking on eggshells, or a better analogy would be walking through a mine field with crampons. No matter how ginergly we step, something is going to blow up. The Shi'ites are gaga over this martyrdom thing of long ago. Their shrines take on this huge emotional aura that gets attached to them, rather than have a religion that deals with the spiritual more than the material (i.e., buildings). They get upset with their buds using the mosques and holy shrines for redoubts and ammo dumps, but they go apeshit if we try to clean out the scum that they are unwilling or unable to remove.

What really gets me is that they play political games using these shrines. People like al-Sistani cannot be trusted and will not do the horse trading and compromise required to create a successful Iraq. I cannot see how it will work with religious fanatics aboard.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-05-25 2:05:06 PM|| 2004-05-25 2:05:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 ditto, AP. Sistani will turn quicker than you can blink. What a cesspool of humanity.

Posted by anymouse 2004-05-25 2:25:14 PM|| 2004-05-25 2:25:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 We may need to cordon off these sites without occupying them just to protect them from such a sneak attack.

The question is, do we gain anything tangible by doing this?

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-05-25 2:25:54 PM|| 2004-05-25 2:25:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Their shrines take on this huge emotional aura that gets attached to them, rather than have a religion that deals with the spiritual more than the material (i.e., buildings).

... I cannot see how it will work with religious fanatics aboard.

Excellent points, AP. I am also concerned that this concept has evaded those setting policy in Iraq. If we are to leave any sort of functional legacy behind us, it must consist of a secular government. Propitiating or appeasing the theocratic aspirations of Iraq's clergy in any way would be a hideous mistake.

Posted by Zenster 2004-05-25 2:35:13 PM|| 2004-05-25 2:35:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 "it must consist of a secular government."
That will never happen. The only way to install and maintain a secular goverment in a muslim country is by force. It worked in Turkey for a while but look at the way that country is going now after the islamic party won.
Is Murat around? She/he should be able to explain this better than anybody.

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-05-25 3:01:39 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:01:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 And condemnation of the United States for somehow participating in five, four, three . . .

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-25 3:11:42 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:11:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 The question is, do we gain anything tangible by doing this?

Great question, Bomb-a-rama. I think it is one of the few protective measures we might take that could demonstrate our resolve to honor religious rights without any overt or permanent desecration occurring to the shrines. I'm sure it will still be seen as "humiliating," but at least the shrines will be intact.

Animals like Zarqawi sit up nights dreaming about how to murder Shias, so his destroying their shrines would just be icing on the cake. However much I do not want us appearing to be overly swayed by existing religious concerns, if we are to be a "guiding hand," it may well need to include some sort of protective measures.

As Alaska Paul has already pointed out, this is pretty much a no-win situation. I just think it might be prudent to make some sort of demonstrably constructive effort twoards averting any potential for catastrophe.

By protecting the shrines, yet installing a secular government, I think we might send a healthy message to the Iraqi people. I'm open to alternative suggestions. F&%k knows, the Shias themselves have already been desecrating these shrines. Like I said, "no-win."

I'll also admit that my stance might seem a little odd due to prior advocay of holding the shrines hostage. Having seen the article about Zarqawi prompted me to consider this entire scenario. One potential side effect is that the Iranian mullahs might gather a functional subtext that we could turn the shrines into material hostages at any moment.

Posted by Zenster 2004-05-25 3:12:35 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:12:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Sistani and the boys have been sounding almost reasonable lately. What's up? Are they worried that if the US pulls out they (the Iraqi clerics) will get wacked by their Iranian backed counterparts? Several polls have indicated that the people, even the Iraqi shia, do not want an Iranian style government. Are Sistani etc running to the front of the mob to claim leadership of it?

It sure would be nice to know.

Posted by Anonymous4904 2004-05-25 3:17:14 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:17:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 That will never happen. The only way to install and maintain a secular goverment in a muslim country is by force. It worked in Turkey for a while but look at the way that country is going now after the islamic party won.

But what message would it send to the Kurds and Sunnis if we enable a Shiite theocracy? This is not to mention any other country currently in our sights. I do not see how any underground elements in Iran would want anything to do with us if we permitted Iraq's reversion into a theocracy.

Again, I'm open to suggestions.

Posted by Zenster 2004-05-25 3:23:20 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:23:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Actually in a secret ballot the Iraqis might well choose anti religious and anti tribal people. This has happened in local elections. Of course elections for a national asssembly are a different matter.

Posted by mhw 2004-05-25 3:36:44 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:36:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I wouldnât give up on Muslims, in general. They, too, bleed and die and hope daily for a better life. Many Muslims can be our allies in the WOT -- as evidenced by the dead bodies and spilt blood of those Muslims the islamofascists target as âcollaboratorsâ -- whether in Palestine, Iraq, or elsewhere in the world. Palestine simply proves that the gentrification of entitlement, without personal responsibility and true democratic voice, always leads to thuggery. If we follow the policies of President Bush, there is much reason to hope millions more can be set free to pursue life, liberty and happiness. We have the sword for the warring, and our right hand of friendship for the peaceful. Indonesia is an example of a (largely) Muslim nation pursuing at least a semblance of democracy -- and I think most of that countryâs problems are due to greed and cronyism, not religion. The greater the focus on Rule of Law and democracy has grown in Indonesia, the better the fate of all the people of that country has become. I think the same will prove true in Iraq -- the solution is the Rule of Law, and a steadfast commitment that Iraqi government will protect and defend life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Posted by cingold 2004-05-25 3:41:22 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:41:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Unfortunately, the only way to ensure that anything resembling a secular government could take roots in Iraq, is for the troops to be there for a long, long time. Do Americans have the stomach to endure years of seeing US soldiers fight and die? I really would like to believe that the average American knows how important it is for the security of their own country that Iraq becomes somewhat secular, but do they?

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-05-25 3:48:36 PM|| 2004-05-25 3:48:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Demonstrating resolve and sending a healthy message to Iraqis is great, but what are they going to do for us? Will we get much greater support for future actions as a result? Will Iraqis take note of what's been done and weigh it all carefully before they open their big mouths to denounce the U.S. again in the event some sort of unforseen mishap occurs? Will Sistani and Sadr be marginalized as a result?

If the answer to all those questions is generally in a favorable category, then yeah, I'd say give it a shot. However, given our experiences up until this point, I have my doubts.

Many Muslims can be our allies in the WOT -- as evidenced by the dead bodies and spilt blood of those Muslims the islamofascists target as âcollaboratorsâ..

Problem is, dead allies don't do us much good. :)

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-05-25 4:39:30 PM|| 2004-05-25 4:39:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Some excerpts from the current National Geographic:

"Saddam's government, made up mostly of the Sunni minority, had restricted Shiite pilgrims from abroad. Now worshippers pour across Iraq's borders to visit their faith's most sacred places."

If accurate, this statement to me is extremely disturbing. One of the first jobs after major combat ceased, should have been to seal the borders. Forget about pilgrims. If they waited all this time to visit their shrines, they could have waited a year or two more. If there is not enough soldiers on the ground to do this then maybe someone *cough*Rumsfeld*cough* didn't put much thought into post-war Iraq.

"Female friends - one a Shiite...and the other a Sunni - check out fellow students at Baghdad's elite al-Nahrayn [Two Rivers] University, where genders and faiths mix easily. The interim constitution adopted in March calls for equality between the genders, but continuing instability and street violence in Baghdad have kept many women students home with their parents. Harassment of non-veiled women and attacks on female dorms have also created tension on campuses as conservative Shiite and Sunni clerics urge separate male and female education. An increasing number of Iraqi Shiites now favor the more puritanical side of Islam, espoused by such late grand ayatollahs as the Iraqi Mohammed Sadiq al-Sadr...and Iran's former dictator, Ruhollah Khomeini, his image (right) found on a book in Najaf."

In other words, Taliban II. I don't think there's much hope for Iraq. The best that could have been hoped for is a society like Kuwait, or the U.A.E.. Unfortunately Iraq is too populous and too poor for any sort of level-headed thinking to flourish. Like the above excerpt illustrated, even if there was a secular, clear-thinker willing to lead Iraq, he or she would quickly be beaten down on the street.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-25 7:00:32 PM|| 2004-05-25 7:00:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 BTW, the Imam Ali Mosque was shelled by Saddam in the early 1990s uprising, and was later rebuilt. If it withstood Saddam's shelling, it can surely withstand some minor damage now. Live with it.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-25 7:02:46 PM|| 2004-05-25 7:02:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Problem is, dead allies don't do us much good.

Maybe they do. There is a saying among evangelical Christians, âthe blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.â People value seeing something worth dying for -- it makes them know it is worth living for. The collaborators who are murdered by islamofascists engender hatred from the surviving family and friends of the murder victims. These murders must be publicized so that the rest of Iraqi society can compare and contrast.

Also, I wouldnât fear too much about the current societal makeup in Iraqi. It is nothing a strong constitutional republic, committed to democracy, canât change over time. The human heart yearns for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness -- we just need to give the Iraqi people a starting place, IMO. The rest will change over time -- if the right constitution is in place. Our own country had a rather fitful start, and did not always protect and defend the rights of the less fortunate in that society (blacks, women, children, etc.) However, the strong constitution of the U.S. -- which established the republic as a representative democracy, with guaranteed and constitutionally protected rights, over time created a rather enviable nation.

Posted by cingold 2004-05-25 10:25:05 PM|| 2004-05-25 10:25:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 if the right constitution is in place.

The Koran will trump any constitution they can come up with. If anything we have learned from radical Islamists, it's that secularism is as much an enemy as Jews, Crusaders, and all other infidels. Education and prosperity will be the key, but that takes decades, maybe even centuries.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-25 11:00:07 PM|| 2004-05-25 11:00:07 PM|| Front Page Top

11:34 Raptor
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