Article

2004-05-13 Europe

Berlin launches push for seat on UN Security Council

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Posted by Seafarious 2004-05-13 12:24:58 AM|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 We should let them have ours. We should no longer need it if we withdrew.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-05-13 12:41:17 AM|| 2004-05-13 12:41:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 giving Germany a seat, (and thus 3 EU seats) without a Japanese and an Indian seat wont fly. Give all those guys seats, and the moaning will start for a muslim seat, and maybe a Latin American seat. DO all that, and still give each perm member a veto, and you get the expanded EU problem - too many veto wielders, paralysis.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 9:50:51 AM|| 2004-05-13 9:50:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Let's give seats to all countries with >100 million population. What, Germany and France don't qualify? Too bad.

Posted by ed 2004-05-13 9:55:09 AM|| 2004-05-13 9:55:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 bad idea Ed - at the rate the unassimilated muslims are breeding, they'll meeet that level in a couple years

Posted by Anonymous4813 2004-05-13 10:29:21 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:29:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 ed - Your scenario would give the Islamic countries 3-1/2 seats now.
Pakistan, Bengladesh, and Indonesia are over 100M.
So is Nigeria, where Islam is domiinant but not in total control everywhere . . . yet.

We'd loose Britain and could only hope for support from Japan on some issues.

In a few years Egypt will also qualify. Very BAD IDEA.

Others - Trading France for Germany - nice thought. When the Conservative CDU comes back into power, we might actually have a vote with us sometimes. (Never will happen though)

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-13 11:37:22 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:37:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 The members of the Security Council are nuclear powers. Using that rationale, there is more reason to put Israel, India, and Pakistan on the Security Council than to put the "Sick Man of Europe" on the Council.

This is just more of Old Europe's pining for a return to the days when they were contenders.

Posted by RWV 2004-05-13 12:48:21 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:48:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 J.F. Revel explains it all for you:

Unilateralism | The whole world must realize that the US is, for the time being at least, the only power capable of saving Mexico from economic and financial bankruptcy (in 1995), to dissuade Communist China from attacking Taiwan militarily, to attempt a mediation between India and Pakistan over Kashmir, to put efficient pressure on the Serbian government to send Slobodan Milosevic to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, and to attempt with any chance of success the reunification of the two Koreas under one democratic government. The European Union tried to meddle with this last problem by sending a delegation led by the Swedish prime minister to Pyongyang in May of 2001. However, this delegation found nothing better to do than to prostrate itself at the feet of Kim Jong Il, the criminal leader of one of the last totalitarian prisons on this planet. The âEuropean solution,â if it were clearly understood, would be to align South Korea with the North Korean regime, instead of the reverse. If the Europeans think that they can put an end to the American âunilateralismâ by ideas of this kind, the diplomatic dominance of the US will last for a long time to come.

This unilateralism is in actual fact the mechanical result of the failure of the other powers. More often than not, this failure is more intellectual than material. It is based more on errors of analysis (as in the case of Korea) than on insufficient economic, political or strategic means. Nothing forced the Europeans, for instance, to let the US alone help the Afghani resistance forces in their fight against Soviet invaders in the â80s. It was certainly not for lack of resources that Europe abstained from helping the Afghanis. It was because of obsequiousness vis-Ã -vis the Soviet Union and following a regrettably erroneous analysis, paired with the illusion or the excuse of âmaintaining dÃ©tente,â which was dead anyway, if it ever existed anywhere outside Western optimism.
"Contradictions of the Anti-American Obsession" New Perspective Quarterly Spring 2003

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-13 1:04:14 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-13 1:04:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Germany is the third largest contributor to the United Nations after the USA and Japan. So it would make sense to have both Japan and Germany on board plus India and Brazil. There will always be at least one major Islamic country in the SC as they rotate.
Veto power is more difficult. To have 4 more veto powers does not make sense. My suggestion would be that the U.S., Russia and China keep full veto power, while France, Germany, UK, Japan, India and Brazil get "half of a veto". That means that they'd need another veto to go along with them. This would effectively translate into a largely symbolic loss of power for the UK, as it is hightly unlikely that the UK would have to vote against the U.S. AND Europe. The pride of France would be hurt most. They probably believe they can just make their veto stronger by always having Germany with them but I rather guess Germany will reign in France in time. It's no loss for the U.S. as now France has full veto power. You can't kick France out as France would have to vote in favor of its own ejection.
Also the changes would certainly come into effect after Schroeder is confined to the dustbin of history and the next CDU government will certainly repair the transatlantic ties and I don't see it voting against the U.S. either.
But then, I think the reforms of the UN should be sweeping. More countries on the UNSC is just window dressing. As a political organization to guarantee peace in the world the UN is pathetically inept.
America will be calling the shots for the next decades. What will happen then nobody knows. China might emerge as equally powerful... or disintegrate.
Germany will not always be the sick man of Europe. Once government changes sweeping reforms will happen. We're not as sick as we seem: We are still export champion of the world, produce quality work and once we get bureaucracy, social security and taxes back in order we'll emerge stronger in a competitive, but bigger European market.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 3:07:11 PM|| 2004-05-13 3:07:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 "We are still export champion of the world,"--I beg your pardon, but Germany couldn't possibly export more than the U.S.
"produce quality work and once we get bureaucracy, social security and taxes back in order..."--That's a huge "If," TGA.
The way the German economy's been going, that's not going to happen any time soon.
But I'm sure your country appreciates your optimism.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 3:23:31 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 3:23:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Regarding UNSC reform, I agree entirely with TGA.

Jen - I dont have numbers handy, but why is TGA's claim impossible? Say US economy is 4 times the size of Germany - given how self-sufficent we are EVEN now, trade could well be more than 4 times as big a share of Germany's economy as ours. Remember, even selling something across the border to Belgium or Denmark counts as an export there - WE have a continental economy. Imagine how huge Californias exports would be if a sale to Texas or Oregon counted as an export.

Now if we excluded German exports to other EU states, to make it more comparible to the US, that would be different.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 3:32:25 PM|| 2004-05-13 3:32:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Lh, EU stats notwithstanding, Germany isn't the biggest exporter.
I don't have any numbers handy, but I know the USA is head and shoulders above Deutschland, followed by Japan.
(You can Google this as well as I can.)
Remember the economy of California alone was/is bigger than France.
As to TGA's rosy views of the prospects for reform and growth of the German economy, it's just plain wishful thinking.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 3:38:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 3:38:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 according the WTO, in 2002 US exports exceeded German, but only by 15%. So TGA may be wrong (i didnt find 2003 data, but suspect US was even stronger relatively in 2003) but hes hardly that far off. And Japan was third, behind Germany.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 3:58:52 PM|| 2004-05-13 3:58:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 15% is a lot in global terms.
And Germany is losing that trade advantage with every passing day, while the US is gaining.
Get a grip.
And I don't believe those figures--no way Germany is behind Japan.
China must be gaining, as well.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 4:02:51 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 4:02:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 It would be an elegant melding of a fading power that has lost its will to live with an organization that has become too corrupt to be relevant, a veritable saturnalia of nihlism.

Posted by Random thoughts 2004-05-13 4:05:40 PM|| 2004-05-13 4:05:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Whats your basis for questioning it? Again GDPwise, Japan aint that much bigger than Germany (Germanys growth may have been slow since reunification, but Japans has been worse) and Japan may well be less trade oriented than Germany - again, Im not sure you get my point about the impact of intra EU trade on German export figures.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 4:06:28 PM|| 2004-05-13 4:06:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 In 2003 Germany exported goods with the value of 750 bn dollars (â¬661,6 at then current exchange rates, calculated at an average $1.13 for the Euro), this is (slightly) more than the U.S. (725 bn) exported in goods in 2003 (Japan has much less). Germany has more than 10% of the world trade. (Japan less than 7%). This comes with a huge trade surplus. If you add services, the U.S. takes the lead.

My point is, we're still rather competitive.

It has to be said as well that Germany was able to take the lead only because a much stronger Euro re-evaluates the total in dollars. Still exports are sharply up for 2004, and this despite a (still) strong Euro that usually hampers exports.

LH, I understand your EU argument but it is flawed. Germany is not the EU, we have competitors there as well, don't you think? Of course the U.S. industry exports less because the U.S. market is so much bigger than the German. I could argue the same way with NAFTA. German EU exports (2203) account for 55% of total foreign trade (set to climb with the new EU states of course).

Of course the U.S. population is 3,5 times bigger than Germany, so I won't even go into the per capita argument.

Our problem is the German market. High taxes and social contribution make Germans spend less than the average consumer in the U.S.

As for the wishful thinking, Jen: I have seen Germany in ruins in 1945. I guess we're in a much more comfortable position right now. We live in the center of a peaceful Europe, with the biggest market we ever had. The rotten state of East Germany has weakened us temporarily, but that will not last. We need more optimism here, some courageous politicians to enact necessary reforms and we'll be back on track. I'm not belitteling problems (aging population is a major concern) but there is no reason to write Germany off.

Our GDP ranks third, after the U.S. and Japan. Some calculate that if China keeps it's current growth it might catch up with Germany in 2013.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 5:00:49 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:00:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Hey, Berlin - you can have the whole goddam UN (though I hate to wish that on Berlin - it was a nice, though divided, city the last time I was there). Sit anywhere you want - just not in New York.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-05-13 12:55:24 AM|| 2004-05-13 12:55:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 This isn't ever going to happen since it would give the EU three seats -- shades of the old Soviet Union gettting multiple seats at the UN for its "constituent republics." Especially since Japan, India and Brasil all think they deserve a permanent seat.

But I'll compromise -- let's give the Germans the French seat.

Posted by Steve White 2004-05-13 1:09:25 AM|| 2004-05-13 1:09:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Each Time you say it Steve it sounds better and better.:)

Posted by djohn66 2004-05-13 7:43:22 AM|| 2004-05-13 7:43:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 CIA world factbook confirms the WTO numbers. Japan has almost double the GDP of Germany, but Germany has 50% higher exports than Japan.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 4:22:47 PM|| 2004-05-13 4:22:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Random thoughts nailed it, Lh.
Japan's growth is far steadier and its economic outlook far brighter than Germany's.
There is no real impact of "intra EU trade" that won't be undone by the "impact" of the old West Germany carrying the weight of the former East Germany--where unemployment is almost 20% with no prospect of improvement in sight--and the added weight of supporting France's Common Agricultural Policy as a gesture of "friendship."
And then there's the cost of the welfare state Germany's put herself in--more benefits, shorter hours and more holiday for workers, less tax revenue, declining birthrates and declining number of workers in the population, etc.
I finally Googled the export figures myself and Germany is slightly ahead of Japan, but the point was GERMANY DOESN'T LEAD THE WORLD IN EXPORTS and won't in the future.
In fact, Germany probably hasn't lead the world in exports since about 1910.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 4:27:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 4:27:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Germany leads Japan in exports by 50% and Jen calls that "slightly" US leads Germany in exports by 15% and Jen calls that important. Hmmm.

I didnt say where Germany was heading. TGA can say more about German prospects for internal reform than I can. Bringing Eastern Europe into the EU, and prospects for growth there should help Germany. Right now Russia, a priniple German market, is still relatively weak, while China is going through an import boom that is sustaining the Japanese economy. Germany has structural problems, but so does Japan. They have comparable demographic problems. Germany has a more severe problem with its welfare state, but Japan has serious problems in its financial sector - Im not sure theyve worked through them all.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 4:34:21 PM|| 2004-05-13 4:34:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I'm sorry, TGA, but it's still pretty much happy horseshit.
Germany's "glory days" (and by this I mean post-WWII West Germany's, but Germans would probably think of either Hitler's Dritten Reich or Prussia under the Kaiser) are behind it.
Kind of sad, really.
Japan should get France's seat on the UNSC, not Germany, because the balance of powers in the world is shifting out of "Old Europe."

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 5:10:16 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 5:10:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Jen - please quote where I said "Germanys doing so well" I said no such thing. I only said that TGA's assertion was not unreasonable. Its NOT. WTO and CIA data show US exports for 2002 greater than Germany by 15%. TGA's 2003 data is different - i think reflecting exchange rate differences more than growth in German exports. In any case thats my point - the difference between the US and German exports is small enough that it can be swamped by exchange rate differences, or year to year growth. Meanwhile I fail to see you admitting your error in regard to Japanese exports.

TGA
Of course the U.S. industry exports less because the U.S. market is so much bigger than the German.
Well, yes, that was precisely my point. Basically to help Jen understand how an economy that is smaller than the US, and not necessarily more competitive, could nonetheless have the same or larger exports.
As for NAFTA, while in concept its comparable, in fact Canada and Mexico are rather smaller markets than France or the UK. My point is that comparing Export relative to GDP between the US and Germany naturally gives a much higher figure for Germany, If we compared the US to the EU, or even NAFTA to the EU, we'd find the figures much more comparable. And if we looked at the US trade position in countries in neither the EU or NAFTA, EG Japan, China, Russia,India, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, etc US economic dominance would be much clearer.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 5:24:53 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:24:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Come on Jen, what's really horseshit here is the term "Old Europe". Even Donald Rumsfeld conceded that in a private conversation. (OK he didn't say horseshit.)
We can see the glass half full or half empty. I prefer the American view of things. But if you want to argue, argue with figures. Correct figures that is.
20 years ago Germany was on the front line, the first country to be annihilated if things had gone bad. Now the former enemy is an enticing new market.
As for the UN seat, I'm not pushing too hard for it anyway. It makes sense but I bet German politicians were rather glad that Germany didn't have veto powers in March 2003.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 5:26:02 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:26:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 I found NO figures that put Germany ahead of the U.S. in exports.
And I did admit my erroneous assumption above--you're just not reading my reply or like a typical Liberal, you failed reading comprehension.
Germany's in a state of decline and doesn't rate a seat on the UNSC.
Japan, a major world power and one about to join the nuclear club and a strong ally of the US, does.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 5:28:53 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 5:28:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 BTW Jen, Prozac is a product of Eli Lilly, located in Indianapolis, Indiana last I heard.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 5:29:41 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:29:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 LH, I wasn't questioning the U.S. economic dominance in absolute terms. My point was that as a country that doesn't even have 30% of the U.S. population we're doing very well in export. And if you're doing well in export it means that you're doing something better than other nations.
Unfortunately Germans have a tendency to whine a lot. We have problems, but we can fix them.
The U.S. has problems, too (trade deficit, debts etc) but I'm sure it can fix them, too.
What we need is a new transatlantic union. We may have our differences but considering our current and future rivals (and foes) it would be suicidal to turn Europe against America. We share too much to let that happen.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 5:32:34 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:32:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 [UN 'Security' Council] 'veto' 'powers' - heh, now there's a marvellously oxymoronic topic.

Is Berlin trying to switch attention away from domestic problems, TGA?!

Personally, I'd like to see the abolition of the UNSC. If you allocate the 'power' through any of the suggested means it's logically indefensible one way or another. The UN is moribund, and rightly so.

Posted by Anonymous4823 2004-05-13 5:35:30 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:35:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 'Germany was on the front line, the first country to be annihilated if things had gone bad."
Don't you mean thousands of US troops stationed in (West) Germany were the ones on the front line and the first to be annihilated if there were a Soviet attack?
The USA received very little thanks for that and we're still waiting.
At some point in time, the bill has to arrive for Germany to pay for its hubris and its warmongering not to mention its anti-Semitism which has now found a sympathetic "ally" in its large (and growing) immigrant Muslim population.
That bill has arrived and the Fatherland has only begun to pay.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 5:35:44 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 5:35:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Jen, just because YOU didn't find the figures this doesn't mean that they aren't there :-)

You think only having nukes qualifies? We could have nukes easily if we wanted to. We don't WANT them. Japan may only want them if NKor doesn't back off.

And you didn't get the German UN move at all. Germany doesn't push for a permanent seat alone, but in concert with Japan, India and Brazil following UN reforms.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 5:37:59 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:37:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 You guys are forgetting the impact of EU expansion. Germany is poised to gain the most because of the huge market that just opened up on their eastern side. But, as with other free trade regions around the globe, Germany should also be prepared for a giant sucking sound as their industry gravitates toward the cheaper labour force of Eastern Europe. Last I heard, Slovakia is supposed to become the auto manufacturing center of the world. Not much different than what happened under NAFTA essentially.

And BTW, if Aris' dream of a federal Europe is realized, shouldn't the US of E get one vote at the UNSC?

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-13 5:38:04 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:38:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 I found NO figures that put Germany ahead of the U.S. in exports.
And I did admit my erroneous assumption above--you're just not reading my reply or like a typical Liberal, you failed reading comprehension.

Yup, sorry, you did say that Germany is slightly ahead of Japan. I define an admission of error as something that says, "oops" or "I was in error" or something to that effect - (regulars here will know that I do say oops when im mistaken) not simply stating the opposite of what one earlier asserted. And, by the way, your assertion that German exports are SLIGHTLY ahead of Japans is WRONG. German exports are 50% greater than Japans. DO you define a slightly as a 50% difference??? "officer, i was doing 80MPH, thats only slightly over the 55MPH limit"
:-)

As for TGA's figures, he'll have to source them himself.

In any case, TGA suggested that Japan be included on UNSC, as well as Germany, and several other states. Or didnt you bother to read his post?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 5:38:20 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:38:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 That anonymous4823 was me.

Oops, should've put scare quotes round 'United'. 'Nations', too, come to think of it.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-05-13 5:38:36 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:38:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Jen - there were thousands of German troops on the frontline beside the US during the cold war. Also Brits, Canadians, Dutch and yes, Belgians and French.

I think theres been much thanks over the years - if some German pols today have forgotten, I dont think TGA has.

As for the antisemitism - Jen, my greatgrandfather was murdered outside his shtetl in Poland by Nazis. I dont need a lecture from you on German antisemitism. But I can see the difference between that Germany and the Federal Republic, which has long been a friend of Israel,and which has for years done more than most states on the planet to try to innoculate its youth against antisemitism. That there is antisemitism in Germany now seems largely a legacy of the GDR, which did not teach its youth so well. And there is certainly less antisemitism in Germany today than in France or Belgium.

Even in recent months, Germany has joined UK in pushing for EU sanctions against Hamas, only to be blocked by - you guessed it - France.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 5:44:31 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:44:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 TGA, dont think Jen represents most Americans, or most hawks, or most Republicans in her attitude toward the Federal Republic of Germany.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 5:47:14 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:47:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Bulldog, Germany pushes for a permanent seat at the UNSC, the question of veto power hasn't been raised (and is more likely to be addressed as part of the necessary UN reforms).

If the political integration process of the EU continues we'll probably see one EU veto at the UNSC. We're not there yet.

My sources? One is the German edition of the Financial Times, which claims Germany to be "Exportweltmeister" (world champion in exports), in 2003 (click on the graphic Warensausfuhren. In this article the numbers for December 2003 had to be estimated but have been confirmed later. Another (much more detailed) the Statistisches Bundesamt, with a galore of Excel files a bit hard too browse through. Most current is a German PDF file you'll find here.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 5:56:56 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:56:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Speak for yourself and only yourself, Liberalhawk.
I like to think I am more forgiving and generous towards the Germans than they deserve and than the average American.
Germany was there when France stabbed us in the back in 2002 and they've both kept on stabbing.
Because Germany hasn't been as outspoken as Jacques Chirac, they haven't rubbed their perfidy into our faces as much, but arrogant apologists like you make it worse.
This whole reductio ab absurdum argument began when TGA said that Germany "led the world in exports."
Which I proved was not correct.
And you had to argue and kept arguing, as if it proved the point that a seat on the UNSC was dependent on exports.
Which it isn't.
If that were the case, the USSR would never had made it and they've been on the SC since its inception.
You just want to argue, Liberalhawk, and on "strawman" points and manipulated statistics and "untruths," which is the clear sign of an idiotarian.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 5:58:27 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 5:58:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 ...there is certainly less antisemitism in Germany today than in France or Belgium.

Not according to the ADL, Lh. At least in 'attitude', France is about as anti-Semitic as Britain (the apparent rise in anti-Semitism in the UK this report indicates disgusts, but hardly surprises me) whilst Germany and Belgium rank highest and second highest in ten EU countries surveyed. According to the ADL, more than one third of Germans and Belgians hold anti-Semitic attitudes; about one quarter of French and British do.

Posted by Anonymous4824 2004-05-13 6:00:11 PM|| 2004-05-13 6:00:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 The above was me (again)

My bad - not EU, but just European countries. Switzerland was on the list.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-05-13 6:04:11 PM|| 2004-05-13 6:04:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Jen, are you deliberately ignoring figures or what? Then let me clarify: In 2003 Germany exported more goods (calculated in dollars) than the United States, this is a fact disputed by no one. What on earth did you prove wrong with this? The CIA factbook still has the figures of 2002.

This, btw, has nothing to do with a future UN seat. Neither me nor LH have made such an argument. My point in that respect was that Japan and Germany are the biggest financial contributors to the UN after the U.S. (and both pay on time, I might add). Right now German troops help to secure peace in Kosovo, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa. In 2001/2002 German AWACS secured U.S. airspace. German soldiers guard U.S. installations in Germany while U.S. troops are in Iraq.

Per capita Germany gives much more foreign aid than the U.S.

Jen if you judge a country by what a single administation did and not by what this country has done and achieved in 60 years, too bad.

LH a lot could be said for antisemitism and I'm sure I can address the issue at given time. But since Jen favors Japan so much, let me ask her one question. Which of the two countries has done more to acknowledge its past and learn from it? When you ask the Japanese about their guilt in WW2 it's still mostly crickets chirping. The "comfort women" are still waiting...

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 6:16:17 PM|| 2004-05-13 6:16:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 I noticed they didn't survey Poland. What a shame. Lots of dirty laundry there. I'd say up to 50%.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-13 6:18:00 PM|| 2004-05-13 6:18:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 "Per capita Germany gives much more foreign aid than the U.S."--And this statistic proves WHAT, exactly?
(The US still ranks head and shoulders above other countries in foreign aid.)

"Jen if you judge a country by what a single administation did and not by what this country has done and achieved in 60 years, too bad."
If we cut Germany any slack whatsoever, it's due to the fine governance of the former West Germany by Helmut KÃ¶hl.

Not only has Germany stabbed America in the back continually in the WOT and is rife with Jew hatred even in the 21st Century and in spite of supposedly "learning their lesson" of WWII, but the Foreign Minister is a former terrorist himself!
Never forget that Joschka Fischer was an unrepentant member of Bader Meinhof.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 6:35:26 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 6:35:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 TGA: Germany's efforts in addressing the past are to be applauded, just as Japan's are inadequate. Ultimately, I believe it will make a difference for the better in the "German people's character", for whatever that term means in the future. IMHO We Americans (especially on RB) are vexed by the prominence of anti-American rhetoric and those riding it to success in Germany and Spain, and to a lesser extent (only because we thought less of them in the first place) in France. Much of the arguments going on reflect that rather than facts. For myself, I believe the EU should be limited to one seat at the UNSC table - by their own choosing/organization. My other choice would be Japan, especially to F*&K with china (my bad)

Posted by Frank G 2004-05-13 6:39:21 PM|| 2004-05-13 6:39:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 "TGA, dont think Jen represents most Americans, or most hawks, or most Republicans in her attitude toward the Federal Republic of Germany."
How dare you, Liberal "hawk!"
There are millions of Americans that feel just like I do and they're called Jacksonians!
When a nation that is supposed to be a friend and an ally betrays us the way Germany has, then they are no longer a friend and an ally and are perilously close to being an enemy.
(Or are you distancing yourself from Jacksonian Democracy, too, as well as common sense?)

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 6:40:29 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 6:40:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Jen, unlike many many members of the "Greatest Generation" there is little point discussing with you, unfortunately.

Oh btw, millions are not a majority. But there we go into figures again.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 6:50:01 PM|| 2004-05-13 6:50:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 We of the new Greatest Generation are the majority, but I guess you'll have to wait until November to see when President Bush gets reelected by a huge margin.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 6:54:56 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 6:54:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 ...they are no longer a friend and an ally and are perilously close to being an enemy.

Jen, look at it in relative terms. There's more common ground to be found with Germany than France, for instance. I would tend to be more forgiving of Germany, for some complicated reason. OTH, the Greens' recent anti-American tone is worrisome. So let's wait until their next elections.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-13 6:57:49 PM|| 2004-05-13 6:57:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 I agree, Rafael, but as you say, it's all "relative."
Our problems with EUrabia come second to those of the Axis of Evil right now.
EUrabia's only a minor player now and once Britain votes "No" to the EU Constitution, the fun will really begin...all these little plans of world glory and dominance will go down Der Toiletten once again.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-13 7:02:39 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-13 7:02:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 JEN!
Britian votes "No" on the EU Constitution, and Chirac calls in the Florida Supreme Court.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-13 7:06:29 PM|| 2004-05-13 7:06:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Sorry Jen, but if you want to fight the Arabs, the EU and probably China in the future you are going to be rather exhausted very soon.

And you would count your friends with one hand. Please spare me that nonsense of EU world glory and dominance. It's like the wolf blaming the sheep that is drinking downstream for troubling his water.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-05-13 7:11:30 PM|| 2004-05-13 7:11:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Put them all on the council. Give them all the veto. The sooner that mutual masturbation society collapses under it's own weight, the sooner we can start a council of democracies (with proof of freedoms as a requirement for entry).

Posted by Mercutio 2004-05-13 7:32:40 PM|| 2004-05-13 7:32:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 TGA you carrying a pork chop to?

Posted by Fury 2 2004-05-13 8:02:01 PM|| 2004-05-13 8:02:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 I was surprised that the German leadership was unsupportive of the U.S. in Iraq, but not at all surprosed by France. As Charles Degaul (sp?) said "Why should one drop of French blood be shed to liberate France? The British and Americans will do it for us." The French have NEVER been our friends. I think we do have more in common as a nation with the Germans than the French or maybe even the British. I believe it all revolves around MONEY. The French blocked or tried to block every sanction against Iraq and opposed any action to unseat Saddam Hussein because of their oil deals. Their philosophy was "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours". The U.N. was in the same bed and Kofi Annon should be ousted. I hope I live to see the day the U.S. withdraws from the U. N. and kicks them out of the United States.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-05-13 9:33:14 PM|| 2004-05-13 9:33:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Remember the USS Stark? Hit by a French Exocet SSM, fired from a French Mirage F1, flown by an Iraqi pilot. 37 sailors killed, 21 injured. Almost 17 years to the day (May 17)...talk about irony.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-13 9:46:47 PM|| 2004-05-13 9:46:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Hmm I hafta agree with some of the earlier posters on this board. I dont see Germany gaining a permanent seat unless its as a single EU seat. Which would mean France at the least would need to lose their seat and possibly the UK as well.

As for economic data, I do wonder how much the rise of German export values is from the higher valued euro, I personally suspect it is probably in the range of about 10% at most, but I could be wrong. However I do think if you toss in both continental interstate trade (like TGA said, we got a bigger manufacturing base but a lot of it is used for creating products for our own citizens rather than for overseas sales) and services (most trade numbers are usually just the actual merchandise figures), well then the scale tips pretty badly. Interesting sidenote to me tho, the number 2 and 3 largest GDP's in the world and two world's top exporters are countries the US bombed and/or invaded.

Posted by Valentine 2004-05-13 9:52:55 PM|| 2004-05-13 9:52:55 PM|| Front Page Top

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