Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Mon 05/10/2004 View Sun 05/09/2004 View Sat 05/08/2004 View Fri 05/07/2004 View Thu 05/06/2004 View Wed 05/05/2004 View Tue 05/04/2004
1
2004-05-10 Africa: Horn
Sudan's slaves: Where's the press on this?
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-05-10 12:51:12 PM|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Sudan's slaves: Where's the press on this?

The UN's "Human Rights" council (of which Sudan is a seated member) is still vetting the report prior to its being published in, say ... 2008.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-10 3:25:27 PM||   2004-05-10 3:25:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Saudi doesn't spend 70 billion in 'public relations' for nothing.
Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-05-10 3:46:33 PM||   2004-05-10 3:46:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 It can't be used to damage Bush, so the press won't bother.

They sure have their priorities straight.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-05-10 7:01:53 PM||   2004-05-10 7:01:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 The media is too busy short-stroking (or fingering) each other over the a few anonymous (remember their heads were covered) 'humiliations' in prison to worry about the government sainctioned child rapes, real torture, and slavery in Sudan....

Besides, as TS mentioned, Saudi money can buy a lot of ethics and, as Barbara mentioned, it does not generate any 'hate bush' feelings for Kerry's campain..... Also this is done by Muslims so it must be ok!
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-05-10 7:17:23 PM||   2004-05-10 7:17:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Crazyfool> It's simple: First World doesn't give a crap about the Third World's doings. First World gives a crap about First World's doings. That's it.

And the torture was real btw. And not all their heads were covered. Didn't see the latest one with the dog?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-10 8:35:13 PM||   2004-05-10 8:35:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Sorry, a larger photo of the dog one and some more here: http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

Btw, it's rather annoying when people try to excuse a crime by saying how much more criminal other folk are being. If this had been done in US soil by US police to ordinary Americans citizens never convicted for any crime, would you *really* not mind and just say "other nations have it worse"? Would you really think it trivial?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-10 8:47:30 PM||   2004-05-10 8:47:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 "First World doesn't give a crap about the Third World's doings."
Not true, AK.
Not only does the US spend hundred of millions on direct aid, but also on trade and this doesn't include the private sector here which sends food, clothing, mission workers, medical aid and medicine, etc. to all the 3rd world countries we can.
If we didn't "care a crap" about Africa, why has President Bush pledged $15 million in AIDS money?
And how come we sent US troops to both Haiti and Liberia just in the last year if we don't care about them?
It's easy to sit in 3rd tier "Europe" and complain about how terrible the USA is, isn't it?
I'll bet our Olympic team can't wait to come to your hot, dusty country where men are men and the goats are nervous!
And Seymour Hersh, Mr. My Lai Massacre, can whine all he wants to about us siccing dogs on Iraqis, but let's face it, do those pictures show the dog doing something evil and foul, like stuffing the Iraqi killer into a shredder? I think not.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-10 8:47:44 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-10 8:47:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Ah, yes, the website "antiwar.com"-- that says it all for me.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-10 8:49:20 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-10 8:49:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Aris - K-9 are used for police control all the time - I have no problem with it
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-10 8:59:23 PM||   2004-05-10 8:59:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 
Re #6: it's rather annoying when people try to excuse a crime by saying how much more criminal other folk are being

It is fair to point out the blatant hypocrisy. Arabs should be ashamed, not just annoyed, when Arab atrocities are pointed out.
.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-10 9:17:36 PM||   2004-05-10 9:17:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 it's rather annoying when people try to excuse a crime by saying how much more criminal other folk are being

You mean something like this?
Posted by ed 2004-05-10 9:37:16 PM||   2004-05-10 9:37:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I did not see the picture with the dog. Does not seem so bad (the dogs are under control and it looks like the prisonor was being told to set down or something). Dogs are often used to control prisoners.

I am not 'excusing' what has happened there. I do, however find that it is being hyped excessively by the Left media, the Democrats (Ted Kennedy and Kerry) for its/their own political purposes. I hope you dont think Kerry or Ted give a rats ass about the Iraqi prisoners - they are just a tool to them.

However those responsible for the abuses should be drummed out of the military and serve time if warranted. (And the person who took such grainy shots should serve time for crimes against photography...).

And I am rather annoyed by people who excuse major crimes such as government sponsored and supported wholesale murder, feeding of people to industreal shredders, use of chemical weapons against a population, rape squads, rape rooms,etc... by equalizing it (as Ted Kennedy did today) with a lesser crime done by a few individuals who ARE being investigated with such transparency as we have seen.
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-05-10 10:05:30 PM||   2004-05-10 10:05:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Crazyfool> True, it shouldn't be equalized. Hitler was worse, Pol Pot was worse, Saddam was worse, Bin Laden is worse, even Putin is worse, etc, etc.

But my point is that it shouldn't be compared to the worst mass murderers of history at *all*. It should be compared to the standards modern western civilisation holds instead. My memory may be failing me but I think it's been many decades since the army of a democratic state has done such things.

Jen> Ah, yes, the website "antiwar.com"-- that says it all for me.

Do you think that the photos are any less genuine because of the name of the website?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-10 10:17:33 PM||   2004-05-10 10:17:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris, your point is well taken. The problem with sites like Antiwar.com is that they throw the “baby out with the bath water.” Of course, the worst offender in this matter is JFsKerry, who is using these crimes (by a few soldiers) to try to springboard his own political future.

With Western civilization at stake, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to “call off the dogs” just because some of the soldiers should be clapped in irons.
Posted by cingold 2004-05-10 10:27:57 PM||   2004-05-10 10:27:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aris, what part of our handling of this don't you like?

Personally, I don't think anyone's trying to EXCUSE anything. Rather, we're pointing out the idiocy of people who get into a lather over crimes that were already being investigated and prosecuted while ignoring much, much more heinous crimes.

Do you think that the photos are any less genuine because of the name of the website?

I'm pretty sure Jen's reacting to the nature of the "antiwar.com" site's contents, not its name. AFAICR, "antiwar.com" is run by a bunch of dyed-in-the-wool "paleocons" and "libertarians" who'd gladly throw the rest of the world into a shredder rather than lift a finger to do anything. They'd as soon wait until the barbarians are massed on our borders -- or in our cities -- as send one soldier overseas to deal with a problem.

I believe they also tend towards the bizzaro-world "Jews run the US!" type of conspiracy theories, another reason to ignore them.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-10 10:39:12 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-05-10 10:39:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "Aris, what part of our handling of this don't you like? "

The systematic torture bit. If you take the torture as a given, then ofcourse the rest of the handling may be fine. But it shouldn't be taken as a given. And how in the world can only 6 people be responsible for a whole prison?

And the other bit I've recently heard that 70% to 80% of the prisoners there are just random individuals that perhaps just happened to be in the neighborhood when a nearby house was being searched by US forces. Of the "the neighbour came out to see what the fuss was about and we grabbed him instead".

Personally, I don't think anyone's trying to EXCUSE anything.

Well, personally, I think some people are.

As for antiwar.com, I don't even know about its rest of its contents -- I just googled for the photos and it was near the top.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-10 10:58:19 PM||   2004-05-10 10:58:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Where are you getting the "systematic" and "whole prison" bits?

Haven't you seen the stories -- some linked here at Rantburg! -- from people who were also at the prison and saw NOTHING like this happening? It's not that they were blind; it didn't happen to every prisoner in the place, and it didn't involve every guard there. Hell, the reason the investigation started was someone who wasn't involved got one of the discs and handed it up the chain of command.

In any case, you misunderstood my question. Apparently it wasn't clear:

What part of the investigation and prosecution don't you like?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-10 11:18:07 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-05-10 11:18:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Aris Katsaris is a complete moron. He uses the same kind of arguments all Socialist do. Am I not right "Greek Boy", I am afraid the great legacy of the Greece has lone gone. The USA is the closest thing to ancient Greece there has ever been and 1000 times better. It's got to be frustrating to be from such great ancient culture and be so oblivious to it that you think like a commie.

Is this the story that you are trying to pass off as "the end all" story What a joke...
I found some of your spew humorous at times. Now I find you to be completely delusional

Make use of your worthless existence and send some money to the Sudan relief fund.
Posted by Long Hair Republican  2004-05-10 11:47:07 PM||   2004-05-10 11:47:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 "Where are you getting the "systematic" and "whole prison" bits?"

Systematic: Since the people here have difficulty with words yet again, look it up. Systematic: purposefully regular; methodical.

Do you think that it wasn't methodical? So many scenes of identical-looking humiliation, with bored -nothing out of the ordinary is happening- looks in some of the soldiers' faces?

Have you read the Taguba report? The photos published are the tip of the iceberg, as others have mentioned. Among other things a detainee was sodomised with a broomhandle. And a male MP guard had sex with a female detainee, which under the circumstances accounts for rape IMO. http://www.npr.org/iraq/2004/prison_abuse_report.pdf

"What part of the investigation and prosecution don't you like?"

I don't believe I ever said there was a part of those that I didn't like.

"Haven't you seen the stories -- some linked here at Rantburg! -- from people who were also at the prison and saw NOTHING like this happening?"

Yes, but the problem is that we *do* know something was happening, backed up with photos this time.

Long Hair Republican> According to you everyone who's not a republican is a socialist, so why should I care about the rest of your post?

As for ancient Greece, blah blah, how cute that all the racist fucks over here follow the exact same tactic. Could you be any more predictable? Probably not. Have you filled up your weekly bigoted cliches quota yet?

But if that's of any relevance, the Greek army hasn't tortured anyone recently to my knowledge. Last incidents I know of are 30 years ago, during the (US-backed, if that's of any relevance) junta.

Make use of your worthless existence and send some money to the Sudan relief fund.

Make use of your worthless existence and send some money to the Red Cross. They warned you and you didn't listen, and they were proven right and you were on the wrong.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-11 9:06:10 AM||   2004-05-11 9:06:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Nice photos, Aris.

That has got to be the whitest-legged Iraqi I have ever seen.

I think we found another planted photo. Anyone from DOJ reading this board: Add the New Yorker to your list of outlets publishing enemy war propoganda, please.
Posted by badanov  2004-05-11 9:15:41 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-05-11 9:15:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 I don't believe I ever said there was a part of those [the investigation and prosecution] that I didn't like.

Then STFU, Aris, because that's the official response. The abuse was a bunch of idiots who abused their power, it was not official policy!
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-11 9:51:22 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-11 9:51:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 What I was commenting on was the fact that the Mainstream media was getting its panties in a knot about what was happening in the prison while ignoring what was happening under Saddam and what is now happening in Sudan. Did you see Jennings explain the mass graves or rape squads/rooms or shreadders? Aris is proably right that the two should not be compared (there is a magnatude of scale of difference between them) but neither should the worse be completely ignored as the media (or congress) is doing in order to leverage the lesser in order to achieve a political goal. Remember that the abuses were already under investigation before CBS (media) decided to show the pictures.

For some reason I dont think the media would be this upset if this had happened under Clinton's watch -- most likely they would be doing their best to put a 'positive spin' on it. But that is just my opinion and observation.

Remember this is the same media which swallowed Billary's 'Vast Right Wing Conspiracy' statement whole -- if a Conservative had said that they would have been laughed off the stage and ridiculed forever (think Dan Quayle).
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-05-11 9:56:44 AM||   2004-05-11 9:56:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Baddie,

I see no reason the doubt the photos (the Brit photos are in doubt, but I have not seen them). One can set a camera's exposure to make any shade you want.

It's interresting that about half the Abu Graib population will be moved out. Since half the population are in there for civilian crimes (theft, rape, murder and do not mix with the military prisoners), I think they will be transferred to Iraqi authority. Something tells me their lifestyles will take a serious nosedive.

I do think the US must follow the Geneva Convention (unlike any enemy the US ever fought) to the letter. What do you mean saboteurs, guerillas, spies, and terrorists are not covered under its protection? Interrogate and shoot them without exception.
Posted by ed 2004-05-11 9:56:50 AM||   2004-05-11 9:56:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 badanov> "Then STFU, Aris, because that's the official response."

Shut the fuck about what exactly? What exactly was it that I said that I should shut the fuck up about?

The torture occured, regardless of whether it was "officially sanctioned" or not. So I won't shut up about calling it torture.

Badanov is fast to call New Yorker as disseminating enemy propaganda when showing dogs threatening prisoners, even though the official report I linked reports it as a finding that dogs were used to threaten (and in one case even biting) a prisoner.

So I won't shut up about such obvious nonsense either.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-11 10:00:22 AM||   2004-05-11 10:00:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Sorry, I meant to address the above post to robert crawford, not badanov.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-11 10:02:08 AM||   2004-05-11 10:02:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Aris is a twat. Airis is a twat. Aris is a twat...
Posted by Marc Bolans Mini 2004-05-11 10:04:53 AM||   2004-05-11 10:04:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Go on repeating it. Kinda like "it's just a bad dream, it's just a bad dream", if you repeat it often enough, perhaps that'll make reality go away.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-11 10:09:15 AM||   2004-05-11 10:09:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 The torture occured, regardless of whether it was "officially sanctioned" or not. So I won't shut up about calling it torture.

And neither will I. I was referring to your bizarre belief that somehow this involved the entire prison and that somehow it was officially sanctioned.

Read the Taguba report; it refutes both of those points.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-11 10:11:48 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-11 10:11:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Agreed that the report seems to identify only a particular section -- I have no knowledge of how many sections the prison contains, but my point remains that limiting the guilty parties to 6 seems way too limited.

As a sidenote the Taguba report itself calls this abuse "systemic", so there's a question of yours answered btw.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-11 10:22:32 AM||   2004-05-11 10:22:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Agreed that the report seems to identify only a particular section -- I have no knowledge of how many sections the prison contains, but my point remains that limiting the guilty parties to 6 seems way too limited.

Naturally, you have a better handle on the matter than the investigating officer. Did you see the note towards the end about the psychological evaluation?

Due to the nature and scope of this investigation, I acquired the assistance of Col (Dr.) Henry Nelson, a USAF Psychiatrist, to analyze the investigation materials from a psychological perspective. He determined there was evidence that the horrific abuses suffered by the detainees at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) were wanton acts of select soldiers in an unsupervised and dangerous setting. There was a complex interplay of many psychological factors and command insufficiences.


The doctor seems to think it could just be a few people.

But, again, I have no doubt your judgement's better.

As a sidenote the Taguba report itself calls this abuse "systemic", so there's a question of yours answered btw.

No, you called it "systematic". Taguba said (for example):

LTG Sanchez cited recent reports of detainee abuse, escapes from confinement facilities, and accountability lapses, which indicated systemic problems within the brigade and suggested a lack of clear standards, proficiency, and leadership.


"Systemic" means "of or relating to the entire body"; Taguba's saying the problems indicate issues (command issues, for example) with the entire unit.

"Systematic" means "methodical" or "constituting a system". There's nothing in the report that says there was a system of abuse.

Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-11 10:53:53 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-11 10:53:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 My last post in this thread, as it's been getting stale.

The Taguba report mentioned the "systemic problems" you are referring to, and in that case I would concede the point -- but it's not the only reference. In page 16, we have the phrase:

"This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard forceThis systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was
intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force
(372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP
Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF)."

I fail to see any difference in meaning between systemic abuse and systematic abuse. If the report only talked about systemic *problems* you'd be right. But it doesn't.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-05-11 11:40:03 AM||   2004-05-11 11:40:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 I fail to see any difference in meaning between systemic abuse and systematic abuse.

And I'm sure I'd have problems with two very similar Greek words. Sorry, Aris, you're wrong. The words mean what they mean.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-11 11:46:38 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-11 11:46:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 #31 My last post in this thread, as it's been getting stale.

You mean as RC has been giving you a whupping.
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-05-11 12:06:16 PM||   2004-05-11 12:06:16 PM|| Front Page Top

22:32 JimR
07:30 Dog of Flanders
12:57 Frank G
12:45 muck4doo
12:37 muck4doo
12:06 Mr. Davis
11:46 Robert Crawford
11:40 Aris Katsaris
10:53 Robert Crawford
10:22 Aris Katsaris
10:11 Robert Crawford
10:09 Aris Katsaris
10:04 Marc Bolans Mini
10:02 Aris Katsaris
10:00 Aris Katsaris
09:56 ed
09:56 CrazyFool
09:51 Robert Crawford
09:15 badanov
09:06 Aris Katsaris
06:15 Anonymous4617
01:14 BigEd
01:09 B
01:06 B









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com