Article

2004-05-10 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve White 2004-05-10 12:39:24 AM|| || Front Page|| [11127 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Karpinski's subordinates at Abu Ghraib at times disregarded her commands, and didn't enforce codes on wearing uniforms and saluting superiors, which added to the lax standards that prevailed at the prison, said one member of the 800th MP Brigade.

The soldier, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also said commanders in the field routinely ignored Karpinski's orders, saying they didn't have to listen to her because she was a woman.

Disregarding orders is pretty serious stuff. Although Karpinski may need to take some heat over the lax discipline, those soldiers who used a commanding officer's gender as an excuse for misconduct exhibit more of a resemblance to the enemy than their own comrades.

Once again, it's difficult not to imagine that part of their orientation prior to arrival in Iraq specifically dealt with the local culture's endemic disrespect and mistreatment of women. To have then gone on to mirror exactly that same sort of discriminatory attitude is nothing more than jock mentality behavior and unprofessional in the extreme.

Posted by Zenster 2004-05-10 1:14:19 AM|| 2004-05-10 1:14:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Anyone else think Karpinsky was removed from her post with cause?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-10 7:14:23 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-10 7:14:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 RC,

Are you saying anyone else besides you or Zenster?

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-05-10 8:21:44 AM|| 2004-05-10 8:21:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I agree with the downgrading of the medals - but not the reasoning behind them.

Bronze Stars should not be given out routinely like this. An Army Commendation medal is the proper award. The Army has cheapened the Bronze Star by awarding it routinely in Iraq, and that is crap. I got mine for "exceptional actions" while engaged in combat against the enemy, on a battlefield, under fire. Not for just doing my job in a war zone.

As for the rest of it, it sounds more like the remnants of Clinton's Kindergarten Army (and the officers it produced) than a real military unit - and the results we see in that prison are predictable if you know the lack of discipline and professionalism the Clinton-era leadership allowed - it was more concerned with appearance and PC (mixed gender boot camp, "Don't Ask Dont Tell", "inclusiveness" etc) than combat effectiveness and discpline. It starts with the commander and flows down hill from there. Thank God there were a gew good non-com's who blew the whistle on this crap.

This 2-star should have his resignation on the desk along side the 1-star in the article.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-05-10 8:32:25 AM|| 2004-05-10 8:32:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Military SOP: Make everyone pay for the sins of the few, and they will be motivated to police their own ranks. I agree with this.

Posted by Cthulhu Akbar 2004-05-10 10:27:52 AM|| 2004-05-10 10:27:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 If Gen Karpinski spent half the time inspecting her subordinates' operations that she has spent on talk shows doing the Mea Culpa and ass-covering, things wouldn't have gotten out of hand

Posted by Frank G 2004-05-10 10:29:37 AM|| 2004-05-10 10:29:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 It is pretty obvious that the 800th Brigade commander, brigade staff, HHC, and at least one battalion were not members of the US Army, but a uniformed mob. Dereliction of duty does not begin to describe this situation. I am looking forward to Genl Karpinski's court martial, and the announcement that the officers and NCO's who were supposed to be in command and controlling the unit have been busted to E-Nothing and assigned as a cleaning crew in support of the CPA's cleaning of the Baghdad sewers!

Posted by Anonymous4785 2004-05-10 10:35:24 AM|| 2004-05-10 10:35:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 and the results we see in that prison are predictable if you know the lack of discipline and professionalism the Clinton-era leadership allowed - it was more concerned with appearance and PC (mixed gender boot camp, "Don't Ask Dont Tell", "inclusiveness" etc)

Don't even bring up mixed gender basic. I love my wife, think women are great. But when I am in basic two weeks from now and standing in front of some chick holding pugil sticks . . . I am going to be so tempted to not hit as hard as I should. It is conditioned into me. The ladies will be coddled, not by the DI's, but by their fellow soldiers, some because of conditioning, some because of what they want from the ladies . . . face it, 19 year olds are chock full-o-hormones. Sticking them in close proximity is a recipe for accidents galore, everything from pregnancy to rape (both real and imagined). Or maybe not. If they keep the recruits too tired to think about sex . . .

Posted by Jame_Retief 2004-05-10 11:08:38 AM|| 2004-05-10 11:08:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 The 800th MP BDE is an EPW handling unit per several websites I checked. Handling EPWs (POWs) is part of their training mission every drill weekend and annual training period. For soldiers from that unit to say that they weren't prepared to process and imprison EPWs (as I've been reading in interviews all weekend) is pure BS. Every aspect of their Mission Essential Task List would be tailored to the EPW mission.

By the way, the unit is a Reserve outfit. Apparently the BDE fielded two great battalions and one crappy one. Consistency is always a problem in the reserves and National Guard.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-10 12:02:54 PM|| 2004-05-10 12:02:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Jame_Retief:

Don't worry, pugil sticks are phase three. By that point, there won't be one person in your platoon, male or female, that you won't want to hit as hard as you can. ;)

Posted by Cthulhu Akbar 2004-05-10 12:31:06 PM|| 2004-05-10 12:31:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Handling EPWs (POWs) is part of their training mission every drill weekend and annual training period.

Better grab those training records before they disappear.

Posted by Steve 2004-05-10 1:07:48 PM|| 2004-05-10 1:07:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Very good points but involving those MP's in interrogations crossed a line that should not have happened.Is it not true that military intelligence was in command over most MP's ?

Posted by rich woods 2004-05-10 1:19:32 PM|| 2004-05-10 1:19:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 some thoughts:

1) Downgrading medals due to actions of others is bullshit pc thinking that hurts the morale of good troops. Give them where they are due and be fair about it.

2) How about we let the mil courts take care of this instead of saying "this or that guy needs to be hung" and "what were they thinking!", from experience I've learned that second guessing those on the scene is for amateurs. AFAIK none of us were present and don't know how the system ran there.

3) If intel was coercing guard behavior (I haven't seen enough on this yet) and the guards followed it - then they are both wrong.

3) Were they dealing w/true epw's or out of uniform irregulars/terrorists?

4) mixed gender training at the boot camp level is bullshit and fairly useless from what I've witnessed. Thank God the Corps has resisted that fiasco.

5) James - w/equal rights comes equal responsibility, everyone takes the same oath and signs the same dotted line. Hold nothing back in training - your country demands it. Hit first, hit hard, hit often. Good luck.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-10 2:21:08 PM|| 2004-05-10 2:21:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Old Spook, when it comes to awards and decs, it's not who you know, it's who you blow. Just look at Kerry.

The V for valor on the Bronze Star still has some meaning. Like you said, the Bronze Star without the V has been administratively awarded for superior performance in a war zone damn near forever. I have (had) a friend who was awarded one in WWII for improving the availability of radios for the 8th AF.

You don't want to know about the diminuation of requirements for Air Medals and DFC's during Viet Nam. Kind of like the grade inflation that went on in universities back in the states. Still depressing.

Posted by Random thoughts 2004-05-10 6:20:31 PM|| 2004-05-10 6:20:31 PM|| Front Page Top

22:32 JimR
07:30 Dog of Flanders
12:57 Frank G
12:45 muck4doo
12:37 muck4doo
12:06 Mr. Davis
11:46 Robert Crawford
11:40 Aris Katsaris
10:53 Robert Crawford
10:22 Aris Katsaris
10:11 Robert Crawford
10:09 Aris Katsaris
10:04 Marc Bolans Mini
10:02 Aris Katsaris
10:00 Aris Katsaris
09:56 ed
09:56 CrazyFool
09:51 Robert Crawford
09:15 badanov
09:06 Aris Katsaris
06:15 Anonymous4617
01:14 BigEd
01:09 B
01:06 B