Article

2004-05-03 Fifth Column

Americans should be wary of their European Allies

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Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-05-03 12:02:30 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Linda McDonald freshens the lesson we should never forget. Kudos are due for her article.

In their sustained obstinate opposition to the BS Conventional Wisdom of our betters, the zeros of the UN and elitists everywhere, Blair and Bush have been singularly outstanding examples of principled and brave warriors - fighting the foe that would destroy or enslave us.

Blair, despite his party and whatever he has done on the domestic front, has proven himself to be the staunchest ally any American could hope for in this war. Truly heartfelt are my thanks to him, the brave warriors of the UK Military, and all in the UK who support the WoT.

Bush, against all my expectations, grew into the shoes of post 9/11 and has been amazingly gutsy. I am extremely grateful to him for doing what I thought no American politician would dare do - fight this war with everything at his disposal and even beyond, taking it to them, to their homelands. To him, his administration, his team, I owe a huge debt of gratitude. I intend to repay it with my vote this November.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

Never forget.

Posted by .com 2004-05-03 12:26:18 AM|| 2004-05-03 12:26:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Yep, what Dot says.

Tony Blair will be well writen for in history.

Posted by Lucky 2004-05-03 1:48:41 AM|| 2004-05-03 1:48:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 PM Blair would be a REAL ally had he deployed FIFTY THOUSAND Brits to Iraq for the duration of the pacification with a big chunk of them in the SUNNI TRIANGLE. I mean, according to PM Blair, it was HIS idea -- not the NEO-CON advisers to President Bush -- to liberate Iraq.

Posted by Garrison 2004-05-03 1:59:39 AM|| 2004-05-03 1:59:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Great powers don't have friends. They have responsibilities that lesser nations even acting in concert cannot shoulder. I'd like to think that America is willing to stand alone, if need be, to do what is right.

At this point in time, of the Europeans, only the Brits can bring significant military power to bear. The French military is only fit for parades, Most of the rest couldn't take the Texas national guard in a stand-up fight. We don't need them. They need us to protect them from the Islamic wolves at their doors and I'm not sure that we will be willing to save them again.

Posted by Random thoughts 2004-05-03 2:02:47 AM|| 2004-05-03 2:02:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Well said Random Thoughts. Words, wonderful words vs stinky things.

Posted by Lucky 2004-05-03 2:11:31 AM|| 2004-05-03 2:11:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Sure can't improve on the above comments. .Com makes a good call on Pres. Bush. If you ever want to talk about a man stepping up to the plate go no further, you've got your man. Mr. Bush has a bucket of balls and is willing to take this fight right where it belongs, and where it originated. It's the shits for sure that this is an election year and we have to abide the time, and oxygen, for the likes of John Kerry. It's just sickening to think that almost half the nation will vote for Kerry. How dare them! Keep struggling guys and gals. Chine

Posted by Chiner 2004-05-03 4:40:08 AM|| 2004-05-03 4:40:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Garrison, I think you are too hard on the British. Their entire country is (probably) smaller than Texas, yet in this war, as in WWII they are a mighty force to be contended with. I personally am grateful to Tony Blair for the support he has provided us. Like Anzar, it is a great personal political risk.

Posted by Anny Emous 2004-05-03 7:28:17 AM|| 2004-05-03 7:28:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Garrison seems to carry a chip on his shoulder, re. the British, that makes Quazimodo look well-balanced. He's certainly not the only Rantburger who carries that baggage.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-05-03 8:54:05 AM|| 2004-05-03 8:54:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Well I will say that 99.9% of Americans are grateful for British support from your mighty Royal Army. I'd be willing to bet that even ungrateful Garrison admires them too. That's why he'd like to see more of you over there :-)

Posted by Anny Emous 2004-05-03 9:04:16 AM|| 2004-05-03 9:04:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 From Random thoughts cmment #4 - "The French military is only fit for parades, Most of the rest couldn't take the Texas national guard in a stand-up fight."

You are correct in your statement, but in the process you have dissed the great state.

Posted by Jake 2004-05-03 10:17:03 AM|| 2004-05-03 10:17:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 5,000 or 50,000, doesn't much matter. This American appreciates the help and support of our good British friends! Although, now would be a good time to send more. :-) I understand that Blair has gone out on a political limb to help as much as he has and that if he overreaches it would threaten his support for us. Therefore, some Brits is better than no Brits. Thank you very much.

Posted by AllahHateMe 2004-05-03 10:45:18 AM|| 2004-05-03 10:45:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 The British Contingent is about right for the size of the country. The problem is, the United States has allowed our armed forces to fall below the minimum necessary to protect us, and to act on our behalf in a dangerous world. We need to keep kicking our good president in the ~~balls~~ butt to build up our military to the point where it needs to be to do all the stinking jobs it's called upon to do - including protecting Europe from its own foolishness - I.E., Kosovo, et. al. The Euroweenies need to understand we live in a dangerous world, and start rebuilding their militaries into something besides another form of welfare. In a little less than three years, they're going to need them to protect themselves from the very real threat from within.

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-05-03 11:04:12 AM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-05-03 11:04:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 "We entered World War II too late and only after we were attacked. Our foreign policy is either too insular, or we are resented for nation building. When we captured Saddam Hussein in December, we were terribly inconsiderate in the way we announced it. "

So? The EU is simultaneously being attacked for being too weak and too powerful, for trying to form an army and for *not* having an army, for not controlling its member states and for controlling them too much, for building a common economy and for not building a common economy, for letting countries in and for letting them out also, for being too close-knit and for being too loose, for being nothing but a visionary dream witout any realism and for being nothing but a cold calculation without any vision at all....

Yeah, the US is attacked for everything it does by different people, and sometimes by the same people. And I've seen many people here do the same for the EU to an even more ridiculous degree.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 11:06:42 AM|| 2004-05-03 11:06:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 AK, and your point being what, exactly?

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 11:15:17 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 11:15:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 To remove the beam from your own eye before you complain about the similar-length beam in other people's eyes?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 11:27:41 AM|| 2004-05-03 11:27:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Well, this is Rantburg.
Actually, the key difference is that most of us who post here are Americans and we look at the EU through that prism and we're pretty happy with our country and its government and policies.
And so are our allies and friends.
With the EU, it's a lot of smaller countries, with some of them wanting to become one great big (Soviet) union, with enough political and economic (and military) power to oppose the United States.
And we're not OK with that, particularly when these same countries enable our enemies, i.e. the rogue states who sponsor terrorism.
And we've spent a lot of money on Europe--on trade, on tourism, and in defense and just plain damn aid.
What's your excuse to bitch, Aristotle?
EUros like you act as if the U.S. is Santa Claus and they're perpetually pissed off that Santa didn't bring them what they wanted for Christmas.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 11:33:17 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 11:33:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 I think Aris was referring to the planned Euro-Army. There was supposed to be a rapid reaction force established years ago that WOULD have formed the core of it, but like everything else in the unelected, bureaucratically-top heavy EU, they're still discussing it.

The problem as I saw it, Aris, was that the EU obviously doesn't have what it takes to support both the EUro Army and NATO: Soldiers per captia is a fraction of the Soviets, the ChiComs, or the USA.

Pick one or the other and stick with it. Me? I'd dissolve NATO, let y'all form your own Army, and figure out how to get it anywhere. Until then, all your yapping translates to expressing a desire to have your cake and eat it too, and demanding that the United States facilitate the impossiblity.

Posted by Ptah 2004-05-03 11:36:14 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-05-03 11:36:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 The French military is only fit for parades, Most of the rest couldn't take the Texas national guard in a stand-up fight.

RT - French-Bashing again tsk tsk tsk

They only reason the French military could even do parades is because of the snazzy uniforms. Otherwise they are not much above traffic cops. And I apologize to any American traffic cops, for no derogatory comparison is intended to them.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-03 11:39:17 AM|| 2004-05-03 11:39:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Jen> The key difference is that I've heard very few Europeans actually wishing for the dissolution of the United States back into its constituent states, and I've heard very many American Rantburgers wish for the dissolution of the EU.

Some countries in the EU "enabled your enemies" , but then again the US also enabled the enemies of some countries in the EU (of Cyprus and of Greece for example), didn't it?

And as for the money you've invested in the European continent, the trade, the tourism, the defense, does anyone think that this wasn't for your own mutual benefit as well, part of the global Cold War?

"With the EU, it's a lot of smaller countries, with some of them wanting to become one great big (Soviet) union, with enough political and economic (and military) power to oppose the United States."

Are you an anarchist and think that power is by itself evil?

And as for "Soviet Union", this doesn't even deign a response other than insult but I'll offer you one. Rantburgers have very recently attacked the EU for caring too *much* about human rights and functioning democracy in candidate member states, e.g. their reactions towards the likely dismissal of Turkey's application.

"The problem as I saw it, Aris, was that the EU obviously doesn't have what it takes to support both the EUro Army and NATO:"

That, and also the British-American objections to any EU defense pact.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 11:52:15 AM|| 2004-05-03 11:52:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Ptah, true and good points, but maybe this decision of Germany's (BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if this were a fait accompli on our part and Germany's making this announcement to "save face") will fast forward the breakup of NATO, although our newest eastern EUropean member countries won't like it.
"Old Europe's" prior committment is to NATO and from the sound of it, the EU Defense Force would be there to actually oppose NATO forces (of which the US is the key player).
And the EU can't have a "defense force" without Britain's military to build on and that means the UK has to sign that damn EU constitution which they ain't gonna do.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 11:52:17 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 11:52:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Ptah>
"I'd dissolve NATO, let y'all form your own Army, and figure out how to get it anywhere."

So would I. I think that defense alliances need some common political unity underneath in order to be meaningful. In the time of the Cold War, NATO was meaningful as a union of western capitalist (but not always democratic) states against the Soviet danger. This doesn't apply any longer.

Currently the new borders of European civilisation being formed are the ones which the Copenhagen accession criteria also encompass -- human rights, a strong democracy, a functioning market... and the actual political desire to be part of the EU ofcourse. It encompasses the democratic baltic states and leaves out other states in the Russian sphere like the authoritarian Belarus and Ukraine.

Dissolve NATO, create a European Army to coincide with the political union, and then form a wider alliance between democracies throughout the world, EU, US, Japan, India...

NATO was only meaningful as part of a European war which neither Europe nor US believes exists any longer. And on my part though I see the conflict as ongoing, the EU is now the chief instrument of democracy and civilisation in this conflict, not NATO anymore, solidifying such reforms in member states and urging reforms in neighbouring ones.

I think that sunukar regional unions, focusing on free trade market and human rights, might help support democracy in other places like Latin America. Though the balance is riskier there, Brazil is so large as to dominated everyone else, and is still far from secure in its human rights, if I remember correctly reports from there.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 12:04:08 PM|| 2004-05-03 12:04:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 AK, the countries of the EU have had power for centuries...Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Holland, even Greece!
Why should they want it back?
They squandered it and their colonies in 2 global wars (at least) and lost it.
And they don't deserve to get it back.
The EU was supposed to be primarily an economic institution, but all it's done has been to enshrine rules that hinder trade and business in previously productive countries like Germany.
And too RICH that these countries are so busy and whining about human rights and "functioning democracy!"
Too ironic that these are the same countries where not just the ideas for but the application of Communism, Marxism, National Socialism, the concentration camp, the slave labor camp, the guillotine and hanging for the death penalty were all alive and well, some as recently as a decade ago.
France didn't outlaw the guillotine until 1964.
Britain hung people for murder until abut the same time.
Now, they make you tea and knit you socks if you're a convict!

The message here, AK, is: Don't lecture the United States about human rights and democracy!
Cause we wrote "the book" on that--it's called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights!
We've seen the evils that Man can do--in your corner of the globe.
So STFU!
Why do you think most of our ancestors left Europe and came over here anyway?

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 12:04:49 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 12:04:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Jen> "and from the sound of it, EU Defense Force would be there to actually oppose NATO forces"

From the sound of it, a European defense force would be there in order that Europe is no longer dependent on US forces.

If you view independence and opposition as synonymous, that's your own interpretation, not the EUs.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 12:08:13 PM|| 2004-05-03 12:08:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 They need us to protect them from the Islamic wolves at their doors and I'm not sure that we will be willing to save them again.

I sure as hell wouldn't be. Not after the disgusting display of the past several years.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-05-03 12:10:57 PM|| 2004-05-03 12:10:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Actually, I'm basing my remarks about the EU Defense Force from what Jacques Chirac said.
But the bottom line is that neither France nor Germany can afford to maintain their share of an EDF, and they're the richest and bossiest EU members!
Yea!

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 12:12:23 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 12:12:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 "And they don't deserve to get it back."

I don't believe we ever asked to put European troops on your soil, nor do I believe that Europe asked to take back its old American colonies.

And I neither recognize nor desire the power you are talking about -- domination over others.

"The EU was supposed to be primarily an economic institution"

No, the EU is no longer supposed to be primarily an economic institution since it changed its name to EU.

"but all it's done has been to enshrine rules that hinder trade "

Wrong. And as for your bigoted rant about concentration camps, I'm treating with the contempt that it deserves.

France didn't outlaw the guillotine until 1964? And the US still hasn't outlawed the electric chair, AFAIK, which frankly looks like a much more horrible death to me -- I'd prefer decapitation over electrocution to death any time of the week.

"The message here, AK, is: Don't lecture the United States about human rights and democracy! "

No, I was not lecturing the United States, I'm lecturing those Rantburgers who were annoyed and infuriated that the EU would care about human rights and democracy when considering Turkey's application entry.

You once again fail to understand the difference between criticizing people and criticizing the nations they belong to. Your hypocricy is your hypocricy alone, not the United States, Jen.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 12:16:46 PM|| 2004-05-03 12:16:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 I wasn't criticizing people--I was challenging your expression of EU Gruppedenke.
It's clear that your idiotarianism and devout faith in Transnational Progressivism, plus your limited reading comprehension (at least in English--sorry! Your English is pretty good for a "furrener," but...), allow you to live in a Weasel-dominated dream world.
Sleep on, my friend. The end is still near, though.
Europe's days as the center of Western Civilization are over.
Check out the story here about the Spanish removing the statue of St. James the "Moor killer" at Santiago de Compostella cathedral because it "offends" Muslims.
Today it's a statue.
Tomorrow, it will be the whole church.
Adieu, Europe! We knew you and loved you well, but it's over...
(Sound of Dallas Cowboys' Dandy Don Meredith singing "Turn out the lights" is heard in the background...)

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 12:25:22 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 12:25:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Aris, "From the sound of it, a European defense force would be there in order that Europe is no longer dependent on US forces."

If the Europeans would actully fund this force to the point that they could be independent it might not be a bad thing. Unfortunately it would probably end being like the French Army was described; great for parades, not much use for actual combat.

Posted by Dakotah 2004-05-03 12:26:23 PM|| 2004-05-03 12:26:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I think Aris is agreeing with the consensus RB opinion (as expressed so far), namely - US out of Old Europe, US out of NATO.
It is time for a trial separation, I think. The more independent Europe becomes, and the better able to defend itself, the more it will be able to deal with the USA as an equal and not a dependant, with less resentment on both sides, hopefully.
And a Europe able to defend itself would seem to me a more useful ally in many ways, rather than a potential future threat. Should push ever come to shove, does anyone really believe they would side against us militarily? I believe that we still are more alike than we are different (particularly if you see the USA's main present and potential future enemies as Islamofacism and the Chicoms).
Maybe a little distance is exactly what this relationship needs right now.

Posted by docob 2004-05-03 12:40:35 PM|| 2004-05-03 12:40:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Dakotah> Most European countries don't have much desire for invading other nations -- and that's not a value judgement on my part, it's just the way it is. So this army would be needed for nothing but defense -- in case some neighbouring nation (Turkey, Belarus, who knows) goes wacko on one of the EU member states, or as the infrastructure that could be strengthened and built on in case a more significant problem (like an aggressive Russia) gradually emerged. In Cyprus the existence of an EU army without either Turkish or Greek members might perhaps help calm down worries of both communities.

These are situations where the existence of an EU army would help, even without the need of it to be one tenth the strength required to be Iraq-crushing powerful.

Jen> Yeah, yeah, the sky is falling. But if the sky is falling in Europe (while flowers are blooming in Iraq), then why is it in Europe and in the EU candidate states that human rights and democracy constantly improve, while elsewhere in the world they are static or even worsening?

Devout faith? Don't mistake the willingness to fight for something with "faith". I have no "faith" that we will be victorious -- the saboteurs and "enablers of our enemies" are many. UK among them. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 12:45:32 PM|| 2004-05-03 12:45:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 docob, I dunno.
After that spectacle of France stabbing us in the back in the UN in 2002, I think anything is possible.
Suddenly, siding against the US seemed all too likely a possibility for the Weasel Axis after that.
Wish I were wrong about them, but I don't think so.
And France and Germany have continued to stand against us ever since (see the story about Germany refusing to "protect" US bases anymore).
Protect them against *what* is the question.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 12:46:10 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 12:46:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Aris, you ever visit America?
I'll put our human rights over those of any country, European ones included.

Oh, and about the electric chair? Most states have abolished their use for executions and almost all have changed over to lethal injection.
But Americans were all mighty glad that the electric chair was "current" (heheh!) when it came time to execute Ted Bundy in Florida!

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 12:51:12 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 12:51:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Jen - Our death penalty laws are non-sequitor to the Europeans, as you can see. I would much rather us get rid of the filth who did things like Ted Bundy. Because of proto-weaseliferous judges and groups like the ACLU, we have sitting in prison here in California, the likes of Charles Manson, and Sirhan Sirhan, who avoided the whiff of cyanide, when the death penalty, for awhile, was declared unconstitutional, and their sentences were reduced to "life".

In 1968 (I was too young to vote) I remember Robert Kennedy's assasination, and though our household was Republican, the idea that some little weasel could kill a duly elected member of the Senate was an affront to democracy.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-03 1:00:39 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:00:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 "I'll put our human rights over those of any country, European ones included."

And once again, since you have problems with reading comprehnsion:
"No, I was not lecturing the United States, I'm lecturing those Rantburgers who were annoyed and infuriated that the EU would care about human rights and democracy when considering Turkey's application entry."

And as for the electric, chair, yes, *most* states have abolished its use and almost all have changed to lethal injection. As opposed to the whole of the EU having abolished the death penalty as a whole.

And yet, you nonetheless saw fit to criticize France for having abolished the guillotine only 40 years ago, which makes my accusation of hypocrisy pointed. What is your *exact* objection to the guillotine?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 1:04:16 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:04:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 But Americans were all mighty glad that the electric chair was "current" (heheh!) when it came time to execute Ted Bundy in Florida!

That's too bad. I kinda liked his show.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-05-03 1:08:56 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:08:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 The EU, is and always will be, a joke. The Euro's have never been able to get along. Plus you've got France and Germany breaking the rules as fast as they can strong arm the smaller countries into accepting them. Can you say 'Doomed to failure'? Haha

By the way, did they get that roof on the Olympic Stadium in Greece yet? I haven't heard much about that lately. Will the EU be helping Greece with security?

Posted by AllahHateMe 2004-05-03 1:10:54 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:10:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 What is your *exact* objection to the guillotine?

Too messy. Blood squirting everywhere, head bumping in the basket, yech. Do the executioners still hold up the severed noggin for the appreciation of a blood-thirsty crowd of Parisians?

So civilized...

Posted by mojo 2004-05-03 1:12:48 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:12:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 AK, I think beheading is obscene, evil and barbaric--particularly performed publicly--which is why the jihadoscum love it.
At least our executions are mostly in private, with a few witnesses.
And the EU doesn't want Turkey--they just jumped on a reason.
Sure, Turkey has human rights problems, but they have plenty of other problems and let's face it, they aren't really "European" as Giscard-D'Estaign said.
(But, liebchen, if you'll reread what I wrote, I WASN'T taking you to task about the EU decision about Turkey).

And I'm glad we have the death penalty here--it means those killers who were executed won't be free to kill again ever.
Whereas in Europe, you still have those guys running around a few years later.
And no-one has any guns to protect themselves!
And we have a legal process here to make sure that those death penalties are fairly imposed and administered.
Check it out--the condemned are on Death Row for decades and get zillions of stays-of-execution.
(In the case of Illinois, the governor pardoned them all!)

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 1:19:00 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 1:19:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 To remove the beam from your own eye before you complain about the similar-length beam in other people's eyes?

Aris, you're quoting the Bible. Isn't that a hate crime or something in Europe these days? Just kidding! Seriously, though, if you're qouting the Bible you really have been hanging out with us redneck Americans for too long!

Posted by Secret Master 2004-05-03 1:29:57 PM|| [www.budgetwarrior.com] 2004-05-03 1:29:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 "AK, I think beheading is obscene, evil and barbaric"

And yet you disapprove of the removal of the statue that showed a guy beheading other guys?

If the death penalty is evil and barbaric, then I think it's evil and barbaric regardless of how messy (or not) it is, especially given that beheading is hardly torture.

As for obscene, sure, every public execution has something obscene in it. Actually I'd argue that every death penalty has something obscene in it, regardless of whether it's shown or not. But when we decide to take a man's life because we feel it's necessary, I think that "obscenity" should be the least of considerations.

I think I would even prefer beheading over lethal injection. Beheading looks quite cleaner in comparison, a swift transition between life and death, no need for a repetition (like electrocution), no slow slide into death with the person struggling to keep awake. Ugh.

Sure, it'd be messy *afterwards*, but I wouldn't be alive so why would I care?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 1:32:26 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:32:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 How did this thread degenerate from a discussion of the future of the US/European alliance to quibbling over which method of capital punishment is more distasteful?

Posted by docob 2004-05-03 1:38:24 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:38:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Actually, I've heard that people can live for awhile after beheading...or at least their head is alive.
And sometimes it takes more than one chop. A lot more.
The horror stories from the Reign of Terror in France alone will chill the blood!
You're proving my point: Europe=Hotbed of barbarism, it's all been done here!
And you do love to argue over the least little thing!
Are you trying to be faithful to Socrates or something?
I can, too, bring up concentration camps and the Final Solution; all my life, I've tried to understand how twisted and sick the German mind had to be to come up with that and that that collective memory (the Jungian Zeitgeist if you will) has still got to be in Germany somewhere.
It didn't just die with Hitler.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 1:40:12 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 1:40:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Jen - In truth the EU is oozing with PC at a level unknown in most parts of the US. and as I said before, to folks like AK, the death penalty is a non-sequitor.

But I will tell you what happens to Europhyllics. 20 years ago, the stop all death penalties chief justice of the state supremes(here in California) was thrown out on her ear by a 2-1 margin, and, in her concession speech she cried about not wanting to preside over "A court of Death".

Some things never change.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-03 1:41:29 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:41:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 "But, liebchen, if you'll reread what I wrote, I WASN'T taking you to task about the EU decision about Turkey."

I never said that you specifically were so doing. But some Rantburgers' contempt towards the EU's rejection of Turkey has been palpable in several threads.

And the EU doesn't care *only* about the human rights of Turkey, but it does case about them also. Same way they cared for the human rights in the eight Eastern European states that just joined up.

mojo> "Do the executioners still hold up the"
We were actually talking about a practice that ended 40 years ago in France. And Jen compared it to practices currently taking place in America, as opposed to ones taking place back then.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 1:44:55 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:44:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 When I think about the EU I'm reminded of Lotfi Zadeh, the father of fuzzy logic's saying: British Police, German Mechanics, French Cuisine, Swiss Banking and Italian love would be an excellent combination but British Cuisine, German Police, French Mechanics, Italian Banking and Swiss love would not be so hot.

I just hope the EU founders are mixing their ingredients correctly.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-05-03 1:51:24 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:51:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 "Actually, I've heard that people can live for awhile after beheading...or at least their head is alive."

True, but the shock of cut throws them into immediate unconsciousness, so the head has no perception. It's only alive in a very technical sense, I believe.

"has still got to be in Germany somewhere."

And the collective desire for slavery has still got to be in America somewhere? It didn't just die alongside Southern independence. How twisted and sick the American mind had to be etc, etc, blah, blah, to come up with that.

And genocide wasn't invented by the Germans btw, the same way that slavery wasn't invented by the Americans.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 1:51:27 PM|| 2004-05-03 1:51:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 No way can slavery compare to the Final Solution with the "showers," the Zyklon B, and the crematoria for 6 million Jewish victims and 12 million total.

Slavery was bad, but I live in the South and we truly lost the Civil War because of our defense of slavery (President Lincoln made sure) and with the civil rights movement in the '60's on forward, relations between races are better than ever and all of America's citizens have "equal protection under the law."
Katsaris, you really don't know SHIT about America.
I wouldn't take such pains to reveal my ignorance if I were you!

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 1:56:32 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 1:56:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 No way can slavery compare to the Final Solution with the "showers," the Zyklon B, and the crematoria for 6 million Jewish victims and 12 million total.

Don't be ridiculous, ofcourse it can compare, in both numbers and quality. How many millions of slaves worked in the United States? How many were whipped, or raped or murdered, not just in a period lasting a few years, but in a period lasting several centuries?

Yes, ofcourse since the 60s on forwards, relations between races are better than ever.

But it's *you*, not I, who didn't give a damn about the present when you had past crimes to insult whole nations over. It's *you*, not I, who said that the sick twisted mentality that made Germans do such a crime, must still be in their national mentality.

I did nothing but show you the horrible and hypocritical bigotry of your words, that one could apply just as well to the United States as you just did in Germany.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 2:04:55 PM|| 2004-05-03 2:04:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 "Europe=Hotbed of barbarism, it's all been done here"

True, but then again it's all been done in the Americas and Asia and Africa as well.

Try to see it as human barbarism, rather than European barbarism, and you just may end up a little less bigoted towards other nations.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 2:17:12 PM|| 2004-05-03 2:17:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 As usual, you didn't show me Jack Squat!
And America got the institution of slavery from Europe, too, you jackass.
And as usual, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation to remedy that for all American and human history.

I suggest to you--in all intellectual fairness--that the Holocaust and the Final Solution is a whole different proposition than slavery, not the least reason being was that it was unique to Germany in the 1940's (I hope) and singular in its scale and the weirdness of both its implementation and the reasons for it to be done in the first place.

In the end, though,you just hate America (or "America" as you think of it), Katsaris, and I think you hate Jews, too.
So you've got that going for you.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 2:19:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 2:19:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Hey Aris - hows the olympic dome coming along?

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-05-03 2:28:59 PM|| 2004-05-03 2:28:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 "And America got the institution of slavery from Europe, too, you jackass."

You mean that what I said in the earlier post: "slavery wasn't invented by the Americans." was actually *accurate* and you simply failed to notice it, YET AGAIN?

Will wonders never cease!

"the Holocaust and the Final Solution is a whole different proposition than slavery, not the least reason being was that it was unique to Germany in the 1940's "

Oh, what total and absolute bullshit. The Armenian genocide by the Turks had happened just decades earlier. And anti-Jewish pogroms had happened throughout the Centuries in many nations, so that's another display of your own ignorance when you are calling it "singular" and unique.

"and I think you hate Jews, too"

And I think that you killed your baby brother and ate his flesh after cooking it over a low fire.

Yosemite Sam> I don't know, and in a world with more important issues I really can't find the interest to even *care*.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 2:48:12 PM|| 2004-05-03 2:48:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 AK, as Dieter on "Sprockets" would say, "Your story has become tiresome."

Thanks for proving what this thread is about: We don't really know what you Europeans' problem is...and we don't wanna know anymore.
Be we know that you have one.
Even though all you can talk about is how "wrong" the USA is, rather than explain what's wrong with you.
It's your world and welcome to it.
We'll be visiting as tourists less and less and I pray that America pulls out of the Olympics.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 2:59:18 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 2:59:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 "Even though all you can talk about is how "wrong" the USA is,"

Actually, what yet again you fail to understand is that what I've constantly talked about it's that Europe is no less "wrong" than the USA is.

"rather than explain what's wrong with you. "

Sure I did. I quite explained it in an earlier post in this very thread: "Human barbarism". It doesn't only explain what's wrong with us, it also serves to explain what's wrong with *you*.

But ofcourse your own ignorance and nationalistic bigotry, Jen, only sees the beams in other nations' eyes. The barbarism that has been the common tradition of the whole of mankind must according to you be something that only the "sick and twisted" German nation created, and the European continent alone.

And you call antisemites those who disagree with your fanatical and ignorant and downright racist view of human history. Screw you, dearie.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 3:52:26 PM|| 2004-05-03 3:52:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Scuse me, but America doesn't have a bad economy.
In fact, our economy's doing pretty great.
Most of Europe's ain't doing so well.
America's putting millions into technology, research and development and inventions.
Europe's lagging in that department, too.
We print more books, too. And write software programs.
And explore space and put up satellites.
And have the finest military in the world.
Europe's lacking in all those areas, as well.
Where's the art? The music? Even the Greek dramas?
What about films?
Not so many, huh?
Europe may be about to re-descend into barbarism, but right now they're mired in bourgeouis complancency with their welfare states.
America is in fine shape--the reason you can tell?
We remained almost completely calm and civilized when we were attacked on 9/11 and all hell broke loose in our normally smoothly running country.
We didn't haul off and nuke someone for it and not many people were even heard wanting us to.
The firemen rushed down to Ground Zero to help and stayed to dig out their brothers.
Thousands of us rushed to either be there or give money or supplies to help out.
We were united and civilized in the face of the worst human barbarism the world had ever seen.
So go suck on your Parthenon.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-03 4:03:58 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-03 4:03:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 No, the EU is no longer supposed to be primarily an economic institution since it changed its name to EU.

It should change its name once again to The ~~Holy~~ Roman Empire, Part Deux. But that's just my biased opinion.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-03 4:15:19 PM|| 2004-05-03 4:15:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Random Thoughts says:

The French military is only fit for parades, Most of the rest couldn't take the Texas national guard in a stand-up fight.

The Phrench "military" couldn't take a Texas high school cheerleading squad in a stand-up fight.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-05-03 5:17:01 PM|| 2004-05-03 5:17:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 AK is upset that Greece is pretty much a 2nd world country that has no relevance to the world. He's jealous that we are Americans and that the US is ontop and he can't be a part of it. I've been to Greece - and its a dump. Dirty, impoverished, and obsessed with Turkey - (another sh!thole that I've been to 3 times)

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-05-03 5:18:00 PM|| 2004-05-03 5:18:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Rafael - you've got a point.

It has been said that the "Holy Roman Empire" was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire, and that just about sums up the EU, loath as they are to admit it.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-05-03 5:20:15 PM|| 2004-05-03 5:20:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Y'all are bein kind of hard on the europeans. They ain't sissies, they just have delicate egos. See they used to be important, but for most of the last century theys had problems with what they call self esteem. Deep down, they has doubts that theys still important. Deep down they knows they caint protect themselves no more, but they caint bring themselves to talk about in public. This here EU makes them feel stronger and more important. They saw our colonies make go from bein weak independently to bein strong as a union. Give em credit for tryin. Right now theys still afraid of standin up for theirselves when the going gets tough, but thats cause theys gotten used to us doin it for them. Theys gonna get stronger and they gonna be on our side in the long run. Mean while, ya'll be nice cause your gonna hurt their feelins.

Posted by Hank 2004-05-03 5:23:12 PM|| 2004-05-03 5:23:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Hank, we speak English here, not Texan. However, your psychological analysis happens to be correct.

Posted by Sam 2004-05-03 6:00:29 PM|| 2004-05-03 6:00:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 No body care abgout what I think but here goes

Ima think jen need to tone down a little a think about what half thought statements might relect in day or two an would you both plese STFU

Ima thi9nk ak one smart tho snoty asshole ima fine i agree with him 23 percntum.

ima a sayin to both please be still for a minute

Posted by HalfEmpty 2004-05-03 6:07:00 PM|| 2004-05-03 6:07:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 ima a mean than in peacufl lucas mccain way

Posted by HalfEmpty 2004-05-03 6:08:19 PM|| 2004-05-03 6:08:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 CompletelyEmpty: Mucky's kind of cute. You're not.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-05-03 6:25:05 PM|| 2004-05-03 6:25:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Dang, is muck4doo contagious or something?

Posted by Cthulhu Akbar 2004-05-03 6:28:08 PM|| 2004-05-03 6:28:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 AK is upset that Greece is pretty much a 2nd world country ...

try more like a third world country...in many aspects it is on par with third world countries...yosemite sam you are def correct about the place smelling...

Posted by Dan 2004-05-03 6:59:28 PM|| 2004-05-03 6:59:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 aris - can't you ever have a discussion without getting ANGRY and start bad mouthing?? you usually have good points till someone totally disagrees with you...

and your always saying "how I explained in another post"...please you act as if people follow the posts of Aris and know everything you have written...

Posted by Dan 2004-05-03 7:02:28 PM|| 2004-05-03 7:02:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 49 "Europe=Hotbed of barbarism, it's all been done here"

True, but then again it's all been done in the Americas and Asia and Africa as well.

yes it has - but never did the americas experience antying in kind - like euro with over 50 million killed...please no comparison....the US actively worked to make sure this never happened in the Americas..yes ther have bannana republic dictator's but nothing that could rock the balance of power or kill millions..

Posted by Dan 2004-05-03 7:10:37 PM|| 2004-05-03 7:10:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 i leave! twat twiterry win agin! read white and blues! leve logic home and troll for hits me and boron go! it were fun tho see yawl around campus slow folk

Posted by HalfEmpty 2004-05-03 7:41:51 PM|| 2004-05-03 7:41:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 "es it has - but never did the americas experience antying in kind like euro with over 50 million killed..."

Actually the MesoAmerican civilisations killed and offered human sacrifice on a scale that Europe never experienced -- if taken as a percentage of the whole of population the butchery was on a level unprecedented anywhere else, to the point that whole civilisations collapsed because of it.

Dan> "please you act as if people follow the posts of Aris and know everything you have written..."

When Jen accuses me of saying things in posts, I would like to have actually said them. When I post things that boil down to "America and Europe act the same" she then immediately claims that I said Europe acts like a saint and America is the devil. When I said "America didn't invent slavery" she immediately reacts as if I had said that America *did* invent it and says things like "Idiot, America got slavery from Europe". When I say things like "I am not lecturing America on matters like human rights, I am lecturing specific individuals" she then spends three posts telling me that I attacked America.

And then she accuses *me* of having problems with reading comprehension. And other people come along like you and Yosemite Sam and try to psychoanalyze them not on the basis of my actual posts, but on the basis of Jen's understanding of them.

Jen said "Katsaris, you really don't know SHIT about America." -- can you tell me a single error I made anywhere in this thread concerning America? One that I actually said, not one that Jen imagined I said? She has so far accused me of saying America invented slavery, that America has worse human rights than Europe, and that relations between the races are bad there. None of which I actually did say or even imply anywhere.

I has once thought she was a little liar, but now I tend to think that she's just an idiot with trouble with reading comprehension.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 8:25:39 PM|| 2004-05-03 8:25:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 "aris - can't you ever have a discussion without getting ANGRY and start bad mouthing?? "

That probably depends on whether the people I'm discussing with will get angry and start bad mouthing me and my own first.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 8:30:34 PM|| 2004-05-03 8:30:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 And Dan, and Yosemite Sam> "AK is upset that Greece is pretty much a 2nd world country" I'm actually much more upset with the nationalistic efforts to turn posters into nothing but a function of their country instead of treat them like individuals with individual beliefs, something that demeans both me and you like human beings.

" is just upset about &;lt;his-or-her nation>." Oh, how *easy* to say. Any foreign national that disagrees with you, and automatically it's because of his nationality, ain't it?

And I could just explain Jen's beliefs by claiming it's her time of the month, couldn't I? Any woman that disagrees me, and it's automatically because of her gender? Any black person and it's because of his race. Any jewish person and it's because of his religion.

And I am also annoyed at the efforts to change the subject on your part, Yosemite Sam, ofcourse. But I'll make the wild assumption you are just upset about the fact that your baseball team hasn't won in more than a century.

And as for "relevance" on a global stage, trust me I really don't care for any such "relevance" either way -- indeed as long as dominant politics in Greece don't agree with me, I'd probably prefer that she has as little relevance on the global stage as possible. Unlike some of you, I'm not an imperialist.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 8:42:11 PM|| 2004-05-03 8:42:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 "Scuse me, but America doesn't have a bad economy"

This "discussion" wasn't about economy, the same way that it wasn't about crime rates, in which case Europe wouldn't have much of them and America would.

"We print more books, too"

And you also have greater illiteracy levels, too.

This discussion wasn't about literature either, but if you insist: the books that sold the most were written in Europe. Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter.

"And explore space and put up satellites."

So does Europe.

"Where's the art? The music?"

What nationality do you think Rowling is? And as for music, I don't follow much of it but the only American singers I currently remember are Michael Jackson and Tori Amos -- and on the European side, I remember Bjork and Elton John. Two and two. There you go. :-)

As for the rest of your ramble it remains as annoyingly irrelevant as anything else you've ever written.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-03 9:02:15 PM|| 2004-05-03 9:02:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 #60 Hank, Hank! "Y'all are bein kind of hard on the europeans. They ain't sissies, they just have delicate egos."
So what is you point?

"See they used to be important, but for most of the last century theys had problems with what they call self esteem. Deep down, they has doubts that theys still important. Deep down they knows they caint protect themselves no more, but they caint bring themselves to talk about in public."
So what does this have to do with whether Americans should be wary of Eurpoean help?

"This here EU makes them feel stronger and more important. They saw our colonies make go from bein weak independently to bein strong as a union. Give em credit for tryin."
You think they are trying to emulate the success of America?

"Right now theys still afraid of standin up for theirselves when the going gets tough, but thats cause theys gotten used to us doin it for them. Theys gonna get stronger and they gonna be on our side in the long run."
What does this have to do with confronting terror?

Posted by HollyH 2004-05-03 9:20:04 PM|| 2004-05-03 9:20:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 .

Posted by test 2004-05-20 1:05:50 PM|| 2004-05-20 1:05:50 PM|| Front Page Top

13:05 test
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