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2004-04-29 Iraq-Jordan
Photos show jail abuse by US troops
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Posted by Anonymous4021 2004-04-29 12:03:01 PM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Charges have already been pressed against them by the military. There's no real news in this story; just a chance to slander the military.

I guess Democrats are going to run on the "Kerry was right then and he's right now, too" platform.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 4:38:26 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-04-29 4:38:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 ..who new fraternity life would catch on so quickly after liberation?
Posted by mjh  2004-04-29 4:46:04 PM||   2004-04-29 4:46:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 come on...maybe the second pict but def not the first...this is pure propaganda..
Posted by Dan 2004-04-29 5:30:58 PM||   2004-04-29 5:30:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 I support the US over Iraq, but this kind of thing should be taken lightly by no-one. In fact the rightwing blogs should be the loudest in criticising this kind of thing.

It is despicable.

It is the discipline and humanity of our armed forces that distinguishes them from the rapers/looters and pillagers that the third world is used to. Blur that line and we cease to have a moral mandate to be in Iraq at all.

These images were far, FAR more damaging to the US's efforts in Iraq than any anti-war protest was before.

This is proof to the world of US-haters that the US really is as evil as they like to think.

Those soldiers need to be seen to be disciplined over this, justice needs to be seen to be done in this case because confidence in the US occupation has just taken a big hit.

The reputation of the US military has just been smeared. All that time, effort, restraint, discipline and hard work to build a good reputation, to ensure Iraqis know it's a liberation not an invasion has just been wiped off the board by a very few appalling individuals.

I am appalled this was even possible. I would have thought the discipline requirements would have taken into account the particular importance of strict behavioural guidelines.
Posted by Anon1 2004-04-29 5:57:31 PM||   2004-04-29 5:57:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Assuming these are legit, this is shameful. Imagine if the US prisoners taken by the Iraqis early in the conflict had been treated this way. I (and I'm sure all rantburgers) would have been furious--like out-of-my-skull, nuke-the-whole-middle-east furious. Listen, I am no pacifist, but this bullshit is exactly what Al-Jazeera lies about us doing, and it looks like here we really did it. I am ashamed. Heads should roll, lots of them.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 5:59:13 PM||   2004-04-29 5:59:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Those soldiers need to be seen to be disciplined over this, justice needs to be seen to be done in this case because confidence in the US occupation has just taken a big hit.

Um, THEY ARE.

Goddammit, what part of them facing charges don't people understand?! This is precisely why CBS decided to run this old news, and why they downplay the fact that the idiots are already facing charges -- to confuse people.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 6:19:57 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 6:19:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Imagine if the US prisoners taken by the Iraqis early in the conflict had been treated this way.

I have no idea who you are, but you really can't be this stupid, can you?

US SOLDIERS CAPTURED BY IRAQ WERE TREATED MUCH, MUCH WORSE THAN THIS!!!

This doesn't excuse what the idiots -- who are facing charges, remember -- did, but, dammit, people, pull your heads out of your asses and get a sense of proportion!
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 6:21:31 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 6:21:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Amen RC, 12 former guards are facing charges. A few bad apples, nothing more and they will face justice. Trust me Military Courts will not see the humor value of these photos.
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2004-04-29 6:25:15 PM||   2004-04-29 6:25:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Apparently DU has some more pictures (and asshats of course)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=109x8317#8330
Posted by Anonymous4021 2004-04-29 6:27:43 PM||   2004-04-29 6:27:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Anon1 - you are assumming these are real. the first picture of the hooded guy with wire attached i highly doubt is genuine.

as Robert pointed out put it in propotion. the US is not some perfect society and we do have bad apples.
Posted by Dan 2004-04-29 6:30:14 PM||   2004-04-29 6:30:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 RC. I'm a regular Rantburger, and don't appreciate being called stupid. Check my posts if you have no idea who I am before deciding I am so stupid. I generally agree with your posts, but would prefer reason to namecalling. I'm referring the the incident, early in the conflict, when a couple of Apache pilots were taken captive. I do not recall seeing photos of them being forced into a naked pyramid, or with hoods over their heads and mock-electrodes hooked up. If you had seen such pictures, what would your reaction have been? My point is not that Americans have not been mistreated in captivity by Iraqi military (and I am referring only the the real Iraqi military, not the insurgents or other irregulars/terrorists, I'm trying to compare apples to apples). Please don't knock down a straw man. My point is that this is incrediby, collossaly bad from every perspective (political, moral, pragmatic), and shameful. If you can't acknowledge that, then we simply disagree. But I don't think you are stupid.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 6:36:34 PM||   2004-04-29 6:36:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 what goes around, comes around! no Geneva convention will protect leatherheads captured with atrocities like this in the news
Posted by mullah omar 2004-04-29 6:40:24 PM||   2004-04-29 6:40:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I have come to the conclusion that if these prisoners had information that related to terrorist attacks against innocents, the military would not be handling them.

The CIA would quietly extract all needed info away from cameras.

I now agree that the military needs to do what they need to do , but I think CBS' actions were jackassery, particularly in re: Gen Kimmit
Posted by BigEd 2004-04-29 6:40:42 PM||   2004-04-29 6:40:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 right on big ed!
Posted by john slenge 2004-04-29 6:43:56 PM||   2004-04-29 6:43:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 One other point about "proportion." It is an important issue. The proportion at issue here is the treatment of enemy prisoners. The world expects tyrannical regimes to mistreat, torture, humiliate enemy prisoners. The world expects America not to do the same--because America expects that of itself. The talk about "bad apples" and fraternity pranks is true as far as it goes, but I don't think you are contemplating what effect this incident is going to have. We are trying hard as hell to be a "light on the hill" to a messed up world that slanders us every day. The point is to lead the world, and we need some moral authority to do so. Even when we act with great honor we face (illegitimate) criticism. But when we hand them ammunition like these photos we are making it almost impossible to respond to Al-Jazeera-like diatribes by saying, "the US would never do that." I like to be in a position where we can say that, and people of good faith know that it is true.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 6:50:49 PM||   2004-04-29 6:50:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 If the President doesn't make a HUGE STINK of this, and speak out about it publicly, and find the higher-ups who were in cahoots, and punish everyone, I would say it will go very badly for us in November. Not only that, but there certainly is a clear moral imperative to do so. And everyone will need to see those heads roll--here and over there.

Anon1 said it : "All that time, effort, restraint, discipline and hard work to build a good reputation, to ensure Iraqis know it's a liberation not an invasion has just been wiped off the board by a very few appalling individuals."

I must admit, it really makes me want to be a lib again . . .

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-29 6:54:06 PM||   2004-04-29 6:54:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I'm referring the the incident, early in the conflict, when a couple of Apache pilots were taken captive. I do not recall seeing photos of them being forced into a naked pyramid, or with hoods over their heads and mock-electrodes hooked up.

Ever hear of Jessica Lynch and the others in her convoy? There were more than just those two pilots captured.

What about the British members of Bravo 2-0? Yeah, that was the Gulf War, but...

BTW -- I'll call anyone stupid who thinks American POWs weren't treated worse than this.

Finally, yes, this looks bad. Primarily, though, because the FACT that welong ago started the process to punish these people is being IGNORED. If we were trying to hush it up, that would be horrible -- instead we're making it clear it's unacceptable and punishing the guilty.

Ideally, it never would have happened. But it did, and the real story is that we're doing the right thing about it. If you want to go along with CBS and the rest of the American-hating world and ignore that, go for it.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 6:57:04 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 6:57:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 I must admit, part of me agrees with BigEd and RC! We need to get a sense of proportion, although this will be used against us. My question is, did anyone see the CBS show. The pics on the link are grainy at best, and I see no US military in the pics (granted, CBS, I assume has some). However, has anyone thought of...those that don't have US military in them directly could be leftovers from Saddam and his satan spawn havin' a lil' fun with the prisners?
Posted by BA  2004-04-29 6:57:43 PM||   2004-04-29 6:57:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 If the President doesn't make a HUGE STINK of this, and speak out about it publicly, and find the higher-ups who were in cahoots, and punish everyone, I would say it will go very badly for us in November.

WTF are you talking about, ex-lib? Again, THEY WERE UP ON CHARGES A MONTH AGO.

God dammit, people, get a goddamned grip!
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 6:59:18 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 6:59:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 RC. You are ignoring my point, and continuing to knock down a straw man. I never said that American POWs weren't treated worse than this. I might be stupid if I ever said that, but I didn't. Stop raising that lie. It is not helping you. Neither is calling me "american-hating." If you can't respond to the point, fine. I still don't think you are stupid, but I'm becoming convinced you are not a serious person.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 7:04:39 PM||   2004-04-29 7:04:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 What's your point? That this looks bad?

Granted, but only when you willfully ignore that we started the punishment process a month before this pictures became public.

You can still say "America doesn't do that" because we sure as hell don't accept it. We punish the people who do that kind of crap.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 7:12:53 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 7:12:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 RC. You seem to think the fact that people are up on charges means everything is cool, nothing to see here, move along. Of course it is crucially important for people to know that the morons are being punished, but there is also the issue of US credibility generally. It just took a big hit, and I feel totally sick about that (because I love my country, not because I hate it), not just mad at CBS. There is a principle that you don't mistreat or humiliate enemy prisoners. It is not a minor principle, it is a majorly fucking important principle. When someone mistreats US prisoners, I get pissed beyond just about anything else. If I didn't feel sick when the US violated that principle, then I am not a principled person. I don't think the answer is to downplay the incident, talk about a few bad apples, frat pranks. I think the answer is to bring down the hammer as if the US understands the principle and respects it. We are doing that by bringing charges. That was not dones publicly before. Okay with me. But now that the incident is public, the hammer has to come down publicly. The President should, and will, say something. Watch.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 7:13:48 PM||   2004-04-29 7:13:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Take the pipe omar.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-04-29 7:19:16 PM||   2004-04-29 7:19:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Oh, and who did you think we sent to war? Angels?

Hell, no. We sent people. And people screw up, and some people are just rotten. Some of the people sent to war are going to do bad things, just as some people who stay here at home do bad things.

When we send people to war, we take responsibility for what they do. Part of that is making sure the rules we've established are followed. We're doing that. There's no cover-up, there's no white-washing; remember, the idiots were charged a month before these pictures were made public.

No doubt there are going to be people who get really big woodies over this, over proof that Americans are human, too. So what? Those same people already believe thousands of lies about Americans; this isn't going to change their minds or enrage them anymore.

Fence-sitters? Some of them might be turned against us, sure. But some of them might see something different in what we do and are because we are punishing the guilty.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 7:24:50 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 7:24:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Dad has reviewed the above and wonders what the fuss is. From Roi-Namur to Iwo the 4th Marine Division took exceptionally good care of their prisoners - all 138 of them.
Posted by Shipman 2004-04-29 7:25:24 PM||   2004-04-29 7:25:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Sludj, by all accounts, this is being correctly handled by the proper military authorities. If the hammer needs to come down, it should be from the military brass. Indications are that already, one general has been dismissed over this. There's your hammer. I don't see a need for the POTUS to become involved at this point. RC is right, we need proper perspective.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-04-29 7:26:15 PM||   2004-04-29 7:26:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 RC: I have a grip! I understand, precisely, what's going to happen. Nothing could make the Kerry campaign and all other anti-Americans happier. If you go to the blog listed for the pics, you'll see what people are saying. I'm not sure if you have a political sense of proportion about this. Post #15 has it right. No one's ever going to hear about all the nasty things the other side has done and does. And you're absolutely right that the punishment of these people is going to be ignored. Of course it will be.

See, it doesn't matter if they were up on charges a month ago--Perception is Everything , in this media-controlled world. Their bygone punishment will only be sidelined, anyway, if mentioned at all by the news outlets -- "those involved are facing charges." BIG FAT DEAL! the world will say to that.

Everyone will want to know exactly what happened to these yahoos. Not only that, but the denouncing--publicly--of their deeds has to be put out there again and again, without a shred of compromise or hint of "cover-up." It has to be said so many times, or in such a big way (like a press conference about it) that the press can't sweep it under the rug. The world will needs to see, and understand very, very clearly, what BUSH does to soldiers that do this kind of thing. And still, it won't matter that much. The deed's been done. If there is any hope of recovering from this thing, it's the moral issue that needs definition. And the Pres is the one who has to do it because he's the CIC. It's his call. The complexities of our military justice system don't make much sense to the average person, even if it were to be explained--which it won't be by our media people.

The Islamiodz and the libs will have a hey day with this, and so will most people who have a sense of basic decency. No one's going to know that our POW's are treated worse, and no one will care whether they were or weren't. We've lost the (pubic relations) initiative.

I agree with Anon1:
"The rightwing blogs should be the loudest in criticising this kind of thing."

Silence will translate into approval.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-29 7:30:46 PM||   2004-04-29 7:30:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I think the answer is to bring down the hammer as if the US understands the principle and respects it. We are doing that by bringing charges. That was not dones publicly before.

Sludj, this story was public a month ago:

As you know, on 14 January 2004, a criminal investigation was initiated to examine allegations of detainee abuse at the Baghdad confinement facility at Abu Ghraib. Shortly thereafter, the commanding general of Combined Joint Task Force Seven requested a separate administrative investigation into systemic issues such as command policies and internal procedures related to detention operations. That administrative investigation is complete, however, the findings and recommendations have not been approved. As a result of the criminal investigation, six military personnel have been charged with criminal offenses to include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts with another.


That was on March 22nd. Like I described it yesterday, this is old news.

I don't understand all the calls for the President to get involved. We're doing everything that needs to be done. What do you want? Hairshirts, flagellation and scourging for the entire chain of command?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 7:31:23 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 7:31:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 RC. I didn't think we sent angels, but I was shocked and surprised by these photos. I would have hoped that there was closer supervision that would prevent this kind of immense screw-up. I agree with you that the fact that we are bringing the hammer down will ameliorate the damage somewhat. Rex. I think the President will comment. He is a principled person and I'm sure he is pissed as hell that this bullshit was allowed to occur. We have the finest, most professional military in the world. This crap has to be denounced from the highest levels. We'll see what happens. RC, I think I understand your position a bit better now, and we probably agree on more than we disagree about (except for the part about me being a stupid america-hater). I just think that for most people the big issue is not whether punishment is being meted out, but how the hell did this happen in our fine military?
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 7:36:20 PM||   2004-04-29 7:36:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#30  Sludj, this story was public a month ago:

Missed it, as I bet 99% of the US public did. Also, the photos add a little context beyond that bland statement. It may be old news to you, but it will be new news to most people, and new news needs a new response.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 7:41:32 PM||   2004-04-29 7:41:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 RC: Excellent point. Problem: No one heard about it. Second problem: no one will get it said in that way, only. "A criminal investigation" "a separate investigation into system issues such as . . . " "Huh?" Average Joe-American says. The pics are what they're going to remember. The pics are all they're going to remember.

So what to do?

What needs to be hammered, and I do mean HAMMERED is:

conspiracy

dereliction of duty

cruelty

maltreatment

assault

indecent acts

and the Pres needs to make clear that the moral high ground is still ours--which will be a tough sell now.

"What do you want? Hairshirts, flagellation and scourging for the entire chain of command?" No. But the Islamic world would consider that a weak punishment. They don't understand our system--which plays into the hands of ALL the anti-American players, who do understand, but don't care.

It's just a sickening situation.


Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-29 7:43:25 PM||   2004-04-29 7:43:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Give the Enlisted people Article 15s.
Give the Officers Letters Of Reprimand.

What's the big deal?

I'll be 'concerned' when our guys find an old
Field Phone Generator and start playing
'The Bell Telephone Hour'.

On either CBS, or the Iraqis!
Posted by Jack Deth  2004-04-29 7:49:26 PM||   2004-04-29 7:49:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Sludj....the President may very well comment.....most likely as a result of press badgering. Even if on his own, fine...not a bad idea. I just don't see it as a requisite. I think most level headed people will understand the bad apple aspect of this....that we can't tar the entire military establishment because of a very localized incident. The press may be tempted to go on a witch hunt for other such incidents... but such a move is likely to backfire on 'em.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-04-29 7:50:41 PM||   2004-04-29 7:50:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 except for the part about me being a stupid america-hater

I never said you were an America-hater. I said you were following the line of CBS and other America-haters.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 7:51:57 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 7:51:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 I'm waiting for CBS to infiltrate and record the treatment of...oh...let's say, the Italian hostages. I don't approve of what was done here, but a sense of proportion needs to be maintained
Posted by Frank G  2004-04-29 7:53:15 PM||   2004-04-29 7:53:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 RC. Lame. Sounds like Clinton: "it depends on what the meaning of is, is." You slammed me without thinking about what I was saying. That's okay, heat of battle. But calm down with the namecalling (at least directed at me).
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 7:54:15 PM||   2004-04-29 7:54:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 and the Pres needs to make clear that the moral high ground is still ours--which will be a tough sell now.

Oh, yeah. We've definitely sunk to the level of people who stand behind women and children and shoot at soldiers. We're definitely no better than the people who set off a bomb next to a bus full of kids.

Yep, we've definitely lost the moral high ground.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 7:55:46 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 7:55:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Rex: The bad apple phenomenon will make sense to most people, IF the word gets out about where the President stands--needs to be crystal clear.

Frank G: Yeah--too bad CBS won't do that, and about a million other things.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-29 7:57:46 PM||   2004-04-29 7:57:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Those f__in idiots did more harm to our image than anything else I can imagine. I don't know how many are involved, 3 4 whatever. In anycase they don't represent the fine military we have in place right now. I will be waiting anxiously to see what is meted out to whoever was in charge at this time. I know and most Americansd know or should know that these people are aberrations. It won't change my mind about the war and keeping Dubya as Prez. Hanoi John will spin this somehow with the help of Kennedy, McAuliffe and the rest of the sickening Dims and left loons who puport to be concerned about our country. So be it. As for the Iraqis and the rest of those who wish us ill , a lot of fear of our troops is a good order of the day. Al Jizz et al can KMA
Posted by Bill Nelson  2004-04-29 7:59:04 PM||   2004-04-29 7:59:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Last shot.....this has been one of the better threads today. The fact that this debate exists is ample testimony to our moral high ground. 'nough said.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-04-29 8:04:48 PM||   2004-04-29 8:04:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#41  We're definitely no better than the people who set off a bomb next to a bus full of kids. Yep, we've definitely lost the moral high ground.

RC. There he goes again, purposefully misunderstanding ex-lib. You need to change your handle to "half-cocked." Dude, slow down and think about what people are saying before your blast off into orbit against something they didn't say. He wasn't talking about how your or I are going to percieve this incident. Did you miss that part? C'mon.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 8:07:41 PM||   2004-04-29 8:07:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Whoa, those pics on the DU sight are messed up.

Good thing we didn't beat their dead bodies and hang them from a bridge.

That might make them upset or something.
Posted by Anonymous 2004-04-29 8:11:16 PM||   2004-04-29 8:11:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 I'm not buying it-- fuzzy photos of "some guys being abused somewhere" as put in the Sydney Morning Herald (which leans Left, ask Tim Blair) and on DimUnderground aren't going to convince me that our soldiers did anything like this.
CBS and "60 Minutes" have been exposed with a partisan agenda long before this!
This is more Kerry "American soldiers are baby killers" propaganda.
Shame on you site pests for acting as if it's "true."
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 8:11:31 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 8:11:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Sludj -- please, ignore my comments. It's clear you can't comprehend them for some reason.

How does this incident make it a "tough sell" to say we have the moral high ground? We're punishing the perpetrators. In comparison, our enemies do everything I listed, and more, and celebrate their crimes.

If we can't make that point, we may as well surrender, because we'll never be able to win.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 8:12:03 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 8:12:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Doctor! It hurts when I do this!
Well f**kin duh, don't do that!

Bully: A coward with power.

Amen, Bill. This was not in the middle of a firefight - it's just thuggery. Never should've happened in the first place - do not defend them nor attack critics. Everyone involved knew better - and deserves what's coming. Everything else is twaddle. CBS is just another agenda-driven media whore playing sweeps-week politics.
Posted by .com 2004-04-29 8:12:56 PM||   2004-04-29 8:12:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Jen, the military pressed charges against those involved a month ago. Sadly, it's real. Please don't hare off in the opposite direction of "sludj" and "ex-lib" by denying the possibility.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 8:13:46 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 8:13:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 I'm still not buying it--went over to DUH underground.
It may have been one or 2 soldiers who went a little crazy when we first got there, but it's clear that this hasn't been widespread.
And the Army is doing an investigation.
Bottom line: This is not who our US soldiers really are and letting one or 2 "bad apples" speak for all our troops is Dimocrat Leftist propaganda.
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 8:16:59 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 8:16:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 They F'd up, they disgraced their units, they're charged. Story over
Posted by Frank G  2004-04-29 8:18:33 PM||   2004-04-29 8:18:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 RC. Sorry, can't oblige you by ignoring your posts, I find them fascinating. The most entertaining in this thread by far. But I do think there is a comprehension problem. If you do not understand how pictures of Iraqi prisoners being hooked up to mock-electrods and forced to engage in the Turkish-Bathhouse olympics makes our moral standing a harder sell, well . . . I guess we really see things differently. For one second try to see these photos from a perspective other than your own. Now, I'm not saying those perspectives are right--but they exist. You've got to let that fact sink in to understand why some of us are so sickened and angered by this injury to America's moral standing. And please, don't just say, "but charges have been brought . . ." I know that, and I have addressed it.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 8:25:34 PM||   2004-04-29 8:25:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 What bullshit, sludj.
Are you getting paid for being a seminar poster for the Left?
This doesn't say *squat* about "America's moral standing!"
America, like every other country on the planet, has "bad people" or people who are do wrong.
The difference is that in America, we make a fuss over it, reprimand them and show that it was wrong to do what they did.
We are human and yet we have the rule of law...which we brought to Iraq.
I'm almost certain that some of those pictures were from Saddam's time and not under the U.S. liberation.
While what our soldiers did in this case was wrong and abusive, it was mild and tame compared to what had been done to Iraqis probably in those same rooms.
America owns the moral high ground of the world, which is lucky for the planet in that we're also the lone superpower.
We are the USA and that's a wonderful thing!
And we're not the Soviet Union, the Nazis, the Juches in North Korea or even Saddam's Baathists and I resent anyone like you, "sludge," that tries to lower our fine country to that level because it's politically convenient to you and your fellow travellers.
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 8:32:36 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 8:32:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 I think there are four primary responses to these photos:

1) Those who want to make excuses for the behavior, or minimize it, and see the photos as representing nothing substantive, but primarily as a political weapon for use against the US.

2) Those who have the highest admiration, respect, and gratitude for our military, and who are sickened that these particular a-holes and their superiors acted to harm that military's moral standing. We see this as a substantive issue, but also recognize that enemies of the President and of the US will use the photos as a political weapon. We think that behavior (politicization of the incident) is shameful too.

3) Those who don't really care about the treatment of the prisoners, but are gleeful about the opportunities to use the photos against the President and/or the US.

4) Those few who, although liberal, actually see this as a substantive issue, not just a political weapon (few of these, and far between, but they may exist).
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 8:37:33 PM||   2004-04-29 8:37:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 By your terms you have defined the "issue."
Why is it that these photos and this "story" only appear on 2 of the main organs of the Left Wing Attack Machine: CBS and DU?
It's a political hit on America, President Bush and those who support both (the "silent majority" of Americans).
SSDD.
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 8:42:00 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 8:42:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Jen has a valid point. Just becuase these pictures are in a mainstream newspaper doesn't make them true nor does it explain the context. Recall that yesterday this same paper published the drivel about people in NK getting blown up rescuing pictures of Kimmie.

Otherwise, the pictures are from different sources. The first is from TV footage. My guess it was staged by an Arab TV network (or possibly photoshopped). The second assuming it is genuine looks to me like there was some misunderstanding resulting from poor Arabic that someone thought funny enough to record. Just image how hard it would be to explain to scared people who speak English that this is what you wanted them to do.

Storm in a teacup!
Posted by Phil B  2004-04-29 8:44:54 PM||   2004-04-29 8:44:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Jen, welcome in, the water's warm. Damn, I wish was getting paid. Anyway, I don't think the actions of these few hurts America's moral standing, but it does hurt the perception of that standing, which is a bad thing. See, we have lots 'o enemies in the world, even those who say they are our friends. They love this kind of shit, because now they can make up more lies, and when we say, "that is total nonsense, noone would believe the US military would do that stuff," they say, "LOOK AT THE PICTURES, LOOK AT THE PICTURES." Now, that is not a very good argument on their part, and it is not persuasive to me. But this incident plants seeds of doubt in the minds of some who otherwise would give us the benefit of the doubt. I don't like it when America gets unfairly trashed, and these morons just made it easier. So, please understand, I think America has the moral high ground, no question. But I'm thinking a little more practically about whether our moral force in the world has been harmed as a result of the perception this incident will create. Try to get that.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 8:45:44 PM||   2004-04-29 8:45:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 I think this thread witnesses that there are simply two types of people in the world. Those who are ruled my emotion; and those by logic.
If you think those pictures are so horrible that they magically undo what good has been done you are emotional to the core, and likely will never comprehend why the photos are insignificant n the scheme of things. Yes, they will be held against us, but only by people who are looking for any excuse to do so.
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 8:47:13 PM||   2004-04-29 8:47:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 and those people don't count.
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 8:47:45 PM||   2004-04-29 8:47:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Sludge and ex-lib have it right.

People are being downright stupid if they think downplaying this incident is the way to go. That just makes it look like the US covers things up. Then all the horrible and untrue stories that our enemies make up will be given much more credibility. Islamofascists/leftists: 1, US: 0

Comparing our treatment of PoWs favourably to that of Iraqi militia/Baathists is worse than irrelevant in this case.

It makes it sound like you are justifying the despicable acts of those undisciplined, unprofessional people who have heaped shame on the US army.

whether or not that is your attention, that's the way it reads.

Yes, disciplinary action is being taken but there is a very real need to make a BIG deal about the disciplinary action , make it transparent, public and common knowledge around the world that the actions of those soldiers are NOT countenanced by the military or the US government and are NOT representative of the whole.

Whether we know this to be true or not isn't relevant. What is relevant is that the reputation of the US army is now stained in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Really it makes me absolutely irate that trained members of the armed forces could be so gormless so brainless as to think that this kind of behaviour is acceptable, and then to take tourist snaps is just the height of stupidity. If it weren't for the fact they were so dumb they didn't do it deliberately they should be shot for high treason considering the damage they have done to the war effort.

How many soldiers are going to die in Iraq as a direct result of the opposition that those photos being played constantly on Al-Jazeera will whip up among Iraqis who were previously friendlies?

This has endangered the entire mission. It may seem like a storm in a teacup to those living comfortable lives at home in the States but try to think just for a moment what the admission of a war crime with images to boot does in places like Iraq, where people live differently.

I am still just as shocked and appalled as I was earlier.
Posted by Anon1 2004-04-29 8:49:44 PM||   2004-04-29 8:49:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#58  If you do not understand how pictures of Iraqi prisoners being hooked up to mock-electrods and forced to engage in the Turkish-Bathhouse olympics makes our moral standing a harder sell, well . . .

Can we stack those pictures alongside those of children shredded by terrorist bombs? Or the X-rays of people going through life with bolts and nails embedded in their flesh? Or perhaps of people -- or parts of people -- draped over lamp posts on 9/11/2001? Or with the picture of Daniel Pearl being beheaded? Or pictures of Fabrizio Quattrocchi being shot in the head while bound by his captors?

How about a photo of the hands of a stewardess that were found on a roof near the WTC site a year after 9/11?

Or how about the tapes from Saddam's torture sessions? Or pictures from his mass graves?

What about pictures of a woman who just got stoned to death, or someone who just got tortured for practicing Christianity in Saudi Arabia?

Or how about the pictures of US airmen beaten by Saddam's armed forces? Or by the hordes of Somalia?

Hey, let's reach a bit farther into history, and throw in the pictures of the people shot down in an airport while travelling over the Christmas season. Or what was left of the people murdered over Lockerbie. Or the Olympians shredded by Palestinian grenades.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 8:51:55 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 8:51:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 I think there are four primary responses to these photos:

Wow. You left out any option that fits my position.

Waytago, sparky. Weren't you complaining about strawmen earlier?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 8:54:02 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 8:54:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 RC - those would be too inflammatory - we might take decisive action. CBS chose not to show those

(/sarcasm)
Posted by Frank G  2004-04-29 8:54:58 PM||   2004-04-29 8:54:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 An anonymous coward said:

People are being downright stupid if they think downplaying this incident is the way to go...

[snip]

It makes it sound like you are justifying the despicable acts of those undisciplined, unprofessional people who have heaped shame on the US army.

If you believe that is my position, you should perhaps re-read what I've written.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 8:55:18 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 8:55:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Thank you, Robert, for that timely reminder.

And here's the official reprimand story from the Leftist BBC:
US general suspended over abuse
The problem has been dealt with.
It was clearly this U.S. general's fault who wasn't fit for leadership and "led" her soldiers in the wrong direction.
Her court martial is fitting.
And "Anon1," the Iraqis aren't fooled by these photos (if they saw them)--they know that Saddam's regime was far, far worse.
In fact, right after the liberation, Iraqs were buying up videos of the tortures and executions done in this same prison under Saddam so that they could find out what happened to their loved ones, relatives who haven't been seen or come home for years.
My heart broke for them when I read that.
The United States of America is a force for good and we want our military to exemplify that and 99% of the time, they do.
God bless them.
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 8:58:04 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 8:58:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 #28 . . . What do you want? Hairshirts, flagellation and scourging for the entire chain of command?

Yes! But why?

Would you think it is because I don’t agree with you that these actions are an anomaly by a minority, because I don’t agree with you that the Military COC already is going to do a major clean-up job on these buffoons right in line with the UCMJ, because I don’t agree with you that (in perspective, given human nature) this kind of stuff happens (i.e., if it didn’t, why would we even need the UCMJ)? A resounding “No!”

The reason we need some sort of moral equivalent to “Hairshirts, flagellation and scourging for the entire chain of command” is precisely because of the very human nature you are talking about. And, because of that human nature, head must roll, and publicly, and soon. We are talking about attribution theory here. People believe what is most easily attributed, and events with a high emotional valence are the most easily attributed. I.e., a lot, and I do mean a lot of people will likely say (at some unconscious, preverbal level) something like, “If you have led me to believe you are better than Saddam, then these pictures are all the more shocking, all the more disappointing, and I will all the more believe that all American soldiers are like this until you prove otherwise.” Innocent until proven guilty? Hah, that’s a legal fiction! We people only even try to make believe that when we are being sworn into the jury box--ah, the jury system, our saving grace . . .[but, I digress] I mean, check it out, ex-lib is thinking about being a lib again? That's seriously messed up. Hang in there ex-lib! Seriously, though, why in the world do you think General Kimmet is so friggin’ hot under the collar about this? You don’t think he’s a dummy, do you? What are all the idioms? “Perception is King.” “A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches.” “A good name is better than precious ointment.” “My own honor and reputation I never will resign.” “Trust is hard to earn and easy to lose.” The list goes on and on . . . Why?

Yes, you better believe we need some sort of equivalent to “Hairshirts, flagellation and scourging for the entire chain of command”, and fast! “To whom much is given, much is expected.” If attribution theory is correct, and it is, really (I mean, it works, so . . . maybe it is at least half right), we must show (ourselves first, and then the rest of the world that) we expect much more from our soldiers than the world expects, and that we will discipline them for this kind of tom foolery much more severely than the world would, or we cannot hope to win the “hearts and minds” that are right now thinking we are just the newest contender to be the next Kinder and Gentler Saddam.™ That's why General Kimmet is so pissed at these stupid, and I do mean stupid, f**k-ups. Damn straight, they disgraced their uniform! General Kimmet, I'm sure, is a great student of human nature and he knows exactly what these f**k-ups have cost us and what must now happen to change those perceptions back, and how hard it will be to do just that when the true story of Military Justice is not going to be broadcast over the airwaves nearly as far nor as well by the media as these #@!!/!#*# pictures these immature morons snapped of their “handy work.” //saracam on// Hope they are still sooooo pleased with their little fun and games.//sarcasm off// Why do you think the military has the ceremony of drumming someone out of the Corp? I don’t think drumming someone out of the Corp was ever done for the sake of drama and visual poetry. It is time for the POTUS, the C-I-C, to make use of his bully pulpit (precisely because the media won’t give equal time to the disciplinary process that --you are right-- is right on cue, as is our custom) and the POTUS, the C-I-C must be the great equalizer in the face of the media’s deafening silence and make an object lesson of those responsible. The world is watching us right now to see what we are going to do. It may seem childish and petty, and it may not be fair, but in this day and age of information overload and on demand, just about everyone interested (and there are hundreds of millions) will demand an electronic front row seat to watch how we drum someone out of the Corp. Basic human nature must be satisfied, because it is the most cruel of tyrants.

TRULY, I AM SORRY FOR THE LONG POST, BUT I TRULY THINK THIS IS A CRITICAL JUNCTURE.
Posted by cingold 2004-04-29 9:03:07 PM||   2004-04-29 9:03:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 I shudder to think what these chicken-littles would think if they ever actually witnessed the Marine Corps at work, doing what it *really* does. If an annecdote of mean (wrong & illegal) humiliation is this disturbing to them, an annecdote of (right & legal) violent death would likely make their heads explode.

Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 9:07:07 PM||   2004-04-29 9:07:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Oh, BTW, the simplest but probably most effective thing for the POTUS to do would be to get on the air simply stating his disgust for the apparent actions that took place, his great faith in the military’s ability to police itself, and his promise that those found guilty will be stripped of rank and insignia and drummed out BY HIM PERSONALLY. It would take just moments, and the impact would last a lifetime.
Posted by cingold 2004-04-29 9:10:04 PM||   2004-04-29 9:10:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 And why don't you take a look at what is going on in YOUR prisons. The ones near your home. I promise you they can be 10 times as appalling and inhuman as the treatment witnessed in the photos I saw. And those are in your backyard. Take your indignation and clean them up.
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 9:12:47 PM||   2004-04-29 9:12:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 The pyramid picture reminds me of last night's South Park episode. One of the best episodes EVER, I might add.
Posted by Matt 2004-04-29 9:14:19 PM||   2004-04-29 9:14:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 RC. I guess I do need another category. (5) Those who, when presented with unpleasant facts say, "LOOK OVER THERE, LOOK OVER THERE." You totally dodged my question. I asked whether you really could not see how this incident would make our moral standard a harder sell. You responded, "LOOK OVER THERE, LOOKE OVER THERE." See, I'm not saying there is moral equivalence between any of the events that you described and this incident. Of course anyone with a pulse and a sould knows that this incident is nothing compared to how terrorists behave. That is a false comparison. The true comparison, which you stoicly ignore, is between what happened in that prison and what should have happened in an American prison to prisoners held by the US. Please don't argue that there are worse people in the world than these particular soldiers--of course there are, and no one has argued to the contrary. Another straw man. Listen. I think you are pissed about this incident, just like I am. We are both pissed that enemies of the US will exploit it. That angers me too--a lot. I think the right, moral, American thing to do is to take responsibility for the incident, condemn it, and punish the perpetrators, making clear that they do not represent the US military. I think you believe that too. So what is the big difference? I think I am more concerned about the short and medium term harm this incident will cause to our efforts to pacify and democratize Iraq. You don't seem to think it will be a big problem. Maybe I'm right, maybe you are. We'll see.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 9:14:41 PM||   2004-04-29 9:14:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 I asked whether you really could not see how this incident would make our moral standard a harder sell.

Those are not our moral standards. That's why they are being punnished.

/obvious
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 9:16:43 PM||   2004-04-29 9:16:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 I don't think that involving President Bush is necessary or called for.
Kimmit and the powers that be in the Pentagon are "handling this through channels" as is right and proper.
For Bush to step in and monitor every situation in the military occupation of Iraq would make him look like Musharraf and even Perv has removed himself as head of the Army.
Commander in Chief doesn't mean "meddler in chief."
You are making a big deal out of nothing, cingold.
Which is precisely what the Left would love to have happen.
This general is getting court-martialed and the others involved face a military tribunal.

Why must the United States (and her military) be like "Caesar's wife, " completely above reproach?
As cingold and I pointed out, these are human beings and as such, as Christ and the movie "The Passion" pointed out, subject to sin and violence and evil to their fellow human beings.
Same old story.
For Bush to promise the world that no American soldier will ever act out of line again is crazy!
The only reason this is happening at all is to bolster John Kerry's argument made in as Vietnam war protester in 1971 that the U.S. military are "babykillers" and that they commit "atrocities" as a matter of SOP.
IRT Vietnam, the only atrocity can think of is the My Lai massacre and William Calley (and then there was the junk Bob Kerrey cried about).
The military aren't just a "band of brothers;" they're our brothers and sisters.
What's important here is to find out what this lady particular lady general turned into such a Genghis Khan when she was in the leadership position and make sure that our troops are trained not to do this.
I imagine that "you had to be there."
This prison, Abu Grhaib, is so dark and evil and had clearly been the scene of so much horror under Saddam that she probably "lost it" and went overboard.
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 9:22:50 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 9:22:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 Rawsnacks. Those are not our moral standards. That's why they are being punnished. /obvious You misunderstand. The question is whether it will make it harder to sell our moral standing to a world that is looking for any reason to hate us. The answer is yes. obvious/.

I shudder to think what these chicken-littles would think if they ever actually witnessed the Marine Corps at work, doing what it *really* does. Wow, you sound really tough ... oh, that was how you wanted to sound. Also, you are making a false comparison. This was not the heat of battle, where I agree that our marines should release hell on the enemy. These were guys in a prison. There is a principle that you don't do this shit to enemy prisoners of war. If you only apply that principle when it comes to US prisoners, and not to prisoners held by the US, then you have no principles.

Matt. I saw the SouthPark and had the same thought. Freaking hilarious episode.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 9:26:38 PM||   2004-04-29 9:26:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 RC displays he's no genius:

sensible person: " If you do not understand how pictures of Iraqi prisoners being hooked up to mock-electrods and forced to engage in the Turkish-Bathhouse olympics makes our moral standing a harder sell, well . . ."

RC: "Can we stack those pictures alongside those of children shredded by terrorist bombs? Or the X-rays of people going through life with bolts and nails embedded in their flesh? "

RC is obviously stupid.

It was explained so simply an 8-year-old could understand it.

RC: the reason the US cannot afford to have a slur on its good name is because it is NOT the same as the terrrorist hordes or the murdering looting armies of third world despots.

The minute the US is seen to indulge in the same activities, or show lack of discipline however mild, they lose the high moral ground. IT is very difficult to get the high moral ground back.

The damage those bozos have done to the reputation and honour of the US military is severe.

I am proud of the long-standing disciplined, good record of Anglosphere troops. I hate to see it tarnished in this way.

Worse I hate to see people defending as if it were no big deal. What you want to associate yourself with war criminals? You want to drag down the moral standing of the US as well? You are a worse enemy than Al-Jazeera.

The propaganda bonanza sprouting from this is unlimited because it is an official admission that the US has committed a war crime.

Try to get out of your narrow little world and think of what it means to have your reputation shattered when you are a foriegn soldier.

Think of how much harder this makes it for US troops on the ground in Baghdad to do their daily job.

Think of how previously friendly Iraqis view them having been repeatedly shown those images.

Think of how the leftie enemies of america in countries like Spain, France, Russia, Australia, Britain are going to make hay out of this.

If you are too thick to comprehend then I spose it's a blessing you are posting on am internet message board and not formulating foriegn policy.
Posted by Anon1 2004-04-29 9:29:59 PM||   2004-04-29 9:29:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Shit. Check out Drudge.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 9:30:26 PM||   2004-04-29 9:30:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 Sludj, you've once more chosen to ignore my point and set up your own little strawman.

I asked whether you really could not see how this incident would make our moral standard a harder sell. You responded, "LOOK OVER THERE, LOOKE OVER THERE."

Bullshit. Utter bullshit.

I pointed out what we're in competition with. If we can't do the right thing -- which is exactly what we're doing -- and take the moral high ground from the beasts who committed all the acts I listed, then we fucking well deserve to live as slaves, because there's no hope we can win this war.

Clearly there's no point in discussing this with you anymore. You won't listen, because you're convinced you know what I think, despite it having no resemblence to my real position.

(Pardon my language. I'm just tired of someone who complained about his arguments being misrepresented purposefully misrepresenting mine.)
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 9:36:12 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 9:36:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-04-29 9:38:32 PM||   2004-04-29 9:38:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Anon and Sludge, stop getting your panties in a wad.
This is only a "big deal" because the Left wants it to be.
You're missing the whole point, which is that the bad people involved will be disciplined and dealt with.
End of story.
The U.S. hasn't lost the moral high ground, nor will it, because what we're doing as a nation is morally right and good.
The difference between us and the rest of the world is that these types of abuse AND WORSE go on in prisons of recognized nations all over the world as SOP--and no one notices or cares!
The Red Cross would never visit this prison ONCE when Saddam was in power, now they've been to see him twice!

I'm sick, sick, sick of the Global Left holding the USA up to a standard of moral perfection (that no country's citizens could attain) while giving the truly morally wrong, evil-to-the-core and brutal nations of the world a total pass!
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 9:39:19 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 9:39:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 The question is whether it will make it harder to sell our moral standing to a world that is looking for any reason to hate us.
Answer: no.

Wow, you sound really tough ... oh, that was how you wanted to sound.
I am really tough. And smart.

Also, you are making a false comparison.
I am not making a false comparison. Instead, you misunderstood my point. My point was that people who look at a situation (or mean pictures) from a purely emotional standpoint are not able to recognize their meaning.
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 9:42:05 PM||   2004-04-29 9:42:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Antiwar is a fake -- she pretends to be a nice, concerned liberal, but s/he gets real nasty when support for islamofascists (including undermining Western society and values) is confronted too directly. So as not to waste bandwidth, you can read the Same Story, Different Day right here.
Posted by cingold 2004-04-29 9:42:30 PM||   2004-04-29 9:42:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 "...and make sure that our troops are trained not to do this."

rofl, this is funny, it's called human decency, you either have it or you don't

"This prison, Abu Grhaib, is so dark and evil and had clearly been the scene of so much horror under Saddam that she probably "lost it" and went overboard."

Here you are just making an excuse for them. Since she made it all the way to the rank of general, I would expect that she would have been screened against "losing it"
Posted by Igs 2004-04-29 9:43:07 PM||   2004-04-29 9:43:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Anon1:

Have you missed the nearly constant repetition of the point that those involved are being prosecuted?

THAT IS WHAT MAKES US DIFFERENT THAN THOSE WE FIGHT.

Anon1:

The propaganda bonanza sprouting from this is unlimited because it is an official admission that the US has committed a war crime.

Nope -- US soldiers violated the laws of war and are being punished. If the US did not punish them, that would be a war crime.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 9:44:25 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 9:44:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Igs, and you're saying what, exactly, with your parsing?
The woman's getting court martialed.
It's one woman. We know who she is. And we're drumming her out of the military.
Or would you prefer that she be hung up, tortured with electrodes until she says she's sorry, and then fed into a shredder?
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 9:46:20 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 9:46:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 rofl Jen, I wan't even bother discussing anything with you, it's not worth my effort, you have serious psychological issue
Posted by Igs 2004-04-29 9:48:04 PM||   2004-04-29 9:48:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 Say, Rawsnacks, Jen, Robert Crawford, sludj, Anon1, Igs, I think we agree more than we disagree. Jen said "Kimmit and the powers that be in the Pentagon are 'handling this through channels' as is right and proper." I think your right, and I think we all pretty much agree on this--we have the best, most professional military in the world and they will do a major clean up on their own who have disgraced the uniform.

The issue is how the media/LLL will spin this so that it is allowed to hurt us, and how to try to avoid that.

My only real point is that the POTUS can undercut the media/LLL’s thrust by using the bully pulpit to publicize what is already in motion--so everybody else can relax and realize that we are not just the next Kinder and Gentler Saddam.™
Posted by cingold 2004-04-29 9:51:13 PM||   2004-04-29 9:51:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 RC. Answer this question. Will this incident make our moral standing a harder sell? You haven't answered it, although you seem to think you have. Maybe you don't care that this incident has that effect. That is a defensible position (but one I disagree with), but you haven't taken any position at all. Honestly, what you did was to dodge the question, and you have dodged it again.

Jen, you make RC's same mistake. Instead of thinking about America's interests, you just start flailing away, saying "but there are lots of really, really bad people out there, worse than these soldiers." For the last time, I agree. See, the US holds itself to higher standards, and it should, and it shouldn't make excuses, and I don't think it will, unlike you.

Rawsnacks, since you are tough and smart, I guess you are right. Oh, wait, you are still wrong. The fact that (as you say) "people who look at a situation (or mean pictures) from a purely emotional standpoint are not able to recognize their meaning" is precisely my point. Thanks for making it again though. The Iraqis, who we are trying to democratize and free from tyranny, are going to look at these pictures of their countrymen being humiliated (egregiously) by US soldiers and react emotionally. That is not good for our mission. So the fact that these photos don't shake your confidence in the US or the military is beside the point--they don't shake my cofidence either. But they will almost certainly make things harder for our personnel over there. Do you agree? Do you care?
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 9:54:36 PM||   2004-04-29 9:54:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 sludj, I'm not making excuses for her--she's getting her punishment.
But this general who "went native" (as the British used to say) doesn't define my country or its military.
Nor will she.
And the Left is going to keep pounding away on our "moral standing" any and every way they can.
This isn't the first "bad soldier" story by a long shot.
They have everything to gain and nothing to lose by making America, democracy and capitalism look bad.
Get used to it or you're going to be busy being on the defensive.
This woman's bad conduct does not typify the "face" of our military that the Iraqis and the Afghans see.
Some of you are buying into the Left's drivel, through ignorance or something more sinister by allowing yourselves to be their useful idiots.
The lady general was wrong. She's getting punished, as are any soldiers under her command who participated and it's not going to be happening again.
The UCMJ works--this has been proven over and over and over time.
Case closed.
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 10:01:34 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 10:01:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 My only real point is that the POTUS can undercut the media/LLL’s thrust by using the bully pulpit to publicize what is already in motion--so everybody else can relax and realize that we are not just the next Kinder and Gentler Saddam.™

Then the 'media' could make Bush do a dance anytime they wanted him to by drudging up another 'atrocity.'

My idea: we just complete the job and render the point moot.

Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 10:02:55 PM||   2004-04-29 10:02:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 Jen, I'm glad you are able to declare the case closed. I'm sure that will be the end of it and we won't hear another word about it. Thanks.

Again, you are accusing me of buying into the left's drivel, when what I am actually doing is experiencing the painful anticipation of that very drivel. Get it?

Hey, instead of bashing each other (since Cingold is right, I actually respect Jen and RC, and think they are patriots--but they don't seem to understand what I am saying, and think somehow that I am a leftist or stupid or anti-american) why don't we do something positive to combat the upcoming drivel. Donate to Spirit of America http://www.spiritofamerica.net/req_12/request.html, which is the Marines attempt to combat Al-Jazeera. Hard to think of a better cause.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 10:07:26 PM||   2004-04-29 10:07:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 Will this incident make our moral standing a harder sell?

Only if we ignore the fact that we're doing something about it. Only if we let the crimes of our enemies be ignored. What's so hard to understand about that? If we can't defend ourself in this case, we may as well give up; you can bet harder cases will come along. (For that matter, may have already happened and already be in the public knowledge!)

During WWII, in one case, 42 US soldiers were court-martialled for the beatings of 24 POWs and the lynching of another. Did that hurt our moral standing? Didn't the crimes of the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese so eclipse that crime that it's a nearly forgotten piece of history? Didn't our punishment of the guilty satisfy the requirements of the Geneva Conventions?

See, the US holds itself to higher standards, and it should, and it shouldn't make excuses, and I don't think it will, unlike you.

I'm pretty sure you mean Jen in that, but you come close to my point here: WE'RE NOT MAKING EXCUSES AND WE ARE HOLDING OURSELVES TO A HIGHER STANDARD, AND THAT'S WHAT SETS US APART FROM OUR ENEMIES. I just don't think that means we should do anything beyond making it clear that's exactly what we're doing.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 10:10:59 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 10:10:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 So the fact that these photos don't shake your confidence in the US or the military is beside the point--they don't shake my cofidence either.

As long as you and a majority of Americans vote that way, the pictures have no meaning. We will not fail because of Islamo-resistance. We can only fail through lack of American political courage. And frankly I give the American people more credit.
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 10:12:07 PM||   2004-04-29 10:12:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 think somehow that I am a leftist or stupid or anti-american

Bullshit. I think you're wrong, and that you're getting too wound up over what the stupid anti-American left will do. I've tried to make that clear; you treated my explanation as if it were Clintonian evasion.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-29 10:12:40 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-04-29 10:12:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 It has been a pleasure. I'm done. To be honest, I don't have any hard feelings toward RC or Jen (or Rawsnacks, although I didn't think his posts added much substance to the discussion), I think we actually mostly agree, but are miscommunicating somehow. We all think (1) it is shameful for US soldiers to mistreat and humiliate Iraqi prisoners who pose no threat to the soldiers, (2) the military is taking the right steps in punishing them, (3) this incident will make our mission in Iraq harder, and (4) that sucks because we all want the best for America and our military. I think the President should say something, others disagree. Later.
Posted by sludj 2004-04-29 10:14:17 PM||   2004-04-29 10:14:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 Great point, sludj, and it is a good time to mention Spirit of America, who are a bunch of Marines doing a lot of good in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You never hear in the media of all the great things our military are doing over there--building and equipping schools and playgrounds, helping out communities, Chief Wiggles getting the Iraqi kids toys, equipping hospitals, getting the power and water systems in better shape than they were in under 30 years' of Saddam.
Posted by Jen  2004-04-29 10:14:37 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-04-29 10:14:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#93 Sludj, you are right: Donating to Spirit of America (ad is on LGF frontpage) would be the best way that we here could do anything to help the situation.

And FWIW I think it's also a GREAT idea for POTUS and the C-I-C to undercut the media and immediately denounce those actions as despicable and to mention at every opportunity the heavy consequences that will befal them. They can restore the honour of the US marines by distancing them from such behaviour and making it clear and public the punishments forthcoming,

because WHETHER OR NOT they are already being punished/dealt with , the rest of the world ONLY SEES THE PICTURES and "US War Crimes" is indelibly etched on their memories.

= bad press for the US
= less support
= BAD
Posted by Anon1 2004-04-29 10:22:06 PM||   2004-04-29 10:22:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#94 if this thread gets over 100, you should hit the paypal for each comment after...overkill

sorry, someone has to say it
Posted by Frank G  2004-04-29 10:24:11 PM||   2004-04-29 10:24:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 They can restore the honour of the US marines by distancing them from such behaviour and making it clear and public the punishments forthcoming, because WHETHER OR NOT they are already being punished/dealt with , the rest of the world ONLY SEES THE PICTURES and "US War Crimes" is indelibly etched on their memories. = bad press for the US = less support = BAD

It wasn't the Marines.
and
The President has no credability with the audience you intend his message for.
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-04-29 10:24:20 PM||   2004-04-29 10:24:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 Man, I smell hand puppets on this thread.
Posted by someone 2004-04-29 10:33:20 PM||   2004-04-29 10:33:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#97 AntiWar spewz:

"It's possibly one of many"

If you have evidence of that, Orphan Anti, let's see it. Better yet, send it to the Adjutant General at the Pentagon.

The response here to this incident has certainly been a contrast to the Moonbat left's attitude toward jihadist atrocities, for which they offer lame excuses and moralizing justifications when they aren't cheering them outright.
And we aren't talking about people being humiliated or photographed in degrading positions when we speak of the atrocities committed by the LLL's jihadist allies, we are talking eye-gouging, tongues being ripped out, people being burned or skinned alive, or beheaded slowly with knives while the jihad porn cameras roll.

There is only so much murder, torture, and abuse you peace hypocrite animals can justify and incite before it catches up with you.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-29 10:57:09 PM||   2004-04-29 10:57:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#98 Is it BAD that I don't see anything wrong with the photos? :(

Yeah, it's humiliating, but it pales in comparison to the stuff Saddam, his boys, his henchmen, the Taliban, and misc other ruling Wahhabiists did.

We aren't PHYSICALLY harming them. And before you mention mental scars, you can't possibly measure that in terms of damage or harm.

I think it's a bit of a tempest in a teapot in a warzone.

But that's just my black heart speaking.
>:D

Posted by Anon666 2004-04-29 11:23:55 PM||   2004-04-29 11:23:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#99 Antiwar: shut up unless you're going to complain about how "unsurprising" it is that Islamoidz do the same and worse 24/7. This is an anomaly for the US military. Duh. But then, you knew that already, didn't you? Don't try to capitalize on it, because no one's listening.

sludg, .com and Anon1: Yes! Well-reasoned.

RC: Yes, with certain qualifications regarding applicability to the current press dominance of info sharing/info manipulating--which is the only real points sludg and I are making, which you agree with in your post #6.

cingold: Cool idea. Have the Pres. do the honors--then send her and whoever else off to prison. Ha-ha! (But then the press would probably think they're running the show. "Dance, George, dance!") Sigh.

Re: my "the Pres needs to make clear that the moral high ground is still ours" -- NOT that we've lost the moral high ground in reality--absolutely not--it's the PERCEPTION that we have lost it that matters in the field of public opinion and media manipulation. I know how these guys in the news biz think and act, and I know what they're going to do about it: slime, slime, slime our military, and cover up the crimes of the Islamoidz (you know--the ones that are happening all over the face of the frikken planet). On the actual moral high ground issue: We're still cool. The bad guys still suck. Period. (Sometimes us good guys don't know how bad the bad guys in this country really are, because we're so accustomed to the truth. We may, perchance, underestimate the public's "need to know.")

But, OTOH, no doubt there's enough good thinkers in the Bush camp that "get it" so . . . somebody will do something (drum roll) But will the press cover it?

#88 RC: "Will this incident make our moral standing a harder sell? Only if we ignore the fact that we're doing something about it." Right on. But the media will go out of their way to IGNORE that we're doing something about it ("Punishment? What punishment?") Hopefully Bush will not let that happen.

"During WWII, in one case, 42 US soldiers were court-martialled for the beatings of 24 POWs and the lynching of another. Did that hurt our moral standing?" No--because people understood that WWII was a necessary and just war. The puke-head lefties have worked night and day to obscure the truth that the WOT is even more necessary and just.

"Didn't the crimes of the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese so eclipse that crime that it's a nearly forgotten piece of history?" Absolutely. But who ever hears about the crimes of the Islamoidz, thanks to the media?

"WE'RE NOT MAKING EXCUSES AND WE ARE HOLDING OURSELVES TO A HIGHER STANDARD, AND THAT'S WHAT SETS US APART FROM OUR ENEMIES." Yeah. And I want everybody to know it. (If I only had my own television news network . . . )

#85 Jen : I agree. (But stop trying to beat up sludg, 'cuz he's only saying what I'm saying, pretty much. Besides, the military people in Iraq know EXACTLY how much his will hurt our efforts there and endanger lives, and how much this will fire up the Islamoidz, here, there, and yon--remember, Islamoidz are Neanderthal--they'll never think this through. And the POTUS knows exactly how much trouble this will cause in an election year--what a pain! My opinion is that the people that took part in that are not just stupid, they're traitors precisely because this will cost more American lives when the jihadis become emboldened because of it.) And #81 Jen: Oh great. It was a woman. Are the Islamiodz going ever going to go nuts over that one! And I'm sure the some of the male US military counterparts are going: "Told ya--women in the military . . . they just can't handle it." Sigh.

If we on Rantburg, saw Islamoidz mistreating our soldiers this way, we would be "like out-of-our-skulls, nuke-the-whole-middle-east furious." Well, that's how people are going to feel ABOUT US now. It's like an anti-US dream come true.

Like I said before, we lost the initiative. But leave it to Pres. Bush to fix it and get the truth out. He's a good man.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-29 11:37:57 PM||   2004-04-29 11:37:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#100 I too, trust the C-I-C and POTUS to fix what can be fixed, but I don't think it will be easy. The morons who did this are traitors in my book -- they compromised the mission, and should be shot. I just saw more of the pictures over at the [puke, cough, cough, gag] DU website. Sadly, IMO, a picture is worth a thousand words and will be used so by the islamofascists and their LLL comrades and complicit media moguls. E.g., this one picture:

What do you think the islamofascists will do with it? This is, in essence, aid and comfort to the enemy, don’t you think? President Bush has to come out strong, telling the world what we already know (but the world doesn’t), that we wont stand for this and these idiots are toast. These antics are nothing less than criminal stupidity -- and the morons doing it should find a terminal cure.
Posted by cingold 2004-04-30 12:13:39 AM||   2004-04-30 12:13:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#101 That chick is like, "Hey, Peeners! Alright."

:D

Caption?
"Not bad Mohammed."
"UHOH! A boner after the pyramid? Allah doesn't like fags."
"I like small weiners!"

:D
Posted by Anon666 2004-04-30 1:16:56 AM||   2004-04-30 1:16:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#102 SHAME ON YOU!
Is this what you boast of?
Is THIS how you liberate countries?
Would any of you take it if it was done to you?
your brothers? WOULD you?
Then how dare you act all happy and satisfied?
There truly is no decency left!
And don't start about the bridge, or the Spanish soldier!
Do you know why?
BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW TERRIBLE THAT WAS, IT WAS NOT DONE TO LIVING PEOPLE.
And it was horrible.
How dare you all speak of this so lightly, HOW DARE YOU?
Posted by Gentle 2004-05-02 4:48:30 AM||   2004-05-02 4:48:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#103 Gentle, HOW DARE YOU!
I haven't heard your shame for the hundreds of living people who jumped to their deaths for 100 stories from the burning World Trade Center on 9/11...
or for the beheading of Daniel Pearle on video solely because he was a Jew?
Or for the blowing up of hundreds of women, babies, little children and the elderly in Israel simply because they were Jews.
Or for the Bali bombings.
Or the Madrid bombings.
Or the explosion of the plane on Lockerbie, Scotland.
Or for all the sailors killed on the USS Cole.
Or the Marines killed in their barracks in Lebanon in 1983.
Or for the way our embassy staff was abused for over a year in Tehran, Iran.
ALL OF THESE WERE DONE BY MUSLIMS "for the Faith."
Religion of Peace, my ass!
And the stuff these photos show, even if it wasn't right, was TAME compared to what went on in this prison when Saddam was in power...and no-one ever said shit.
Shut up.
And only come back when you're ready to apologize to us for what you and your co-religionists have done to Americans, Jews and Israelis "in the name of Allah!"
Posted by Jen  2004-05-02 5:51:34 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-02 5:51:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#104 FINE JEN
FINE
I AM SORRY THAT HAPPENED, I AM!
HAPPY?
AT LEAST WE HAVE THE DECENCY TO ADMIT WHEN SOMEONE DOES THE WRONG THING!
WE KEEP TELLING YOU, WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE POEPLE!
THEY CALL THEMSELVES MUSLIMS, yet Islam DOES NOT TOLERATE WHAT THEY DO.
BUT YOU
YOU THINK THOSE SOLDIERS ARE RIGHT!
FINE, JUST WAIT TILL YOU ARE IN THE SAME ROOM WITH ONE OF THOSE AMERICAN GUYS AND LET'S SEE YOU TALK.
I BET YOU WOULDN'T FEEL SAFE!
If some one did that to an animal, I wouldn't ever look them in the face again.
Because they will be waaaaaay beneath me or any one who dares to call him/her self a human
Posted by Gentle 2004-05-02 8:56:21 AM||   2004-05-02 8:56:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#105 No, Gentle, those particular soldiers weren't right.
And if they're found guilty in a military court, they'll be punished for what they did.
And this legal process started long before these photos were published.

But since the Islamist Terror War began, only ONE group of Muslims have publicly denounced jihadi terrorism and that has been the Indonesians (and maybe some of Britain's).
But none of the other Muslims have publicly condemned terrorist murder in Islam's name and in fact, some of them have even asked for MORE.
Whereas millions of us--including President Bush--have condemned the bad behavior of these soldiers to Iraqis!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-02 9:16:36 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-02 9:16:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#106 "WE KEEP TELLING YOU, WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE POEPLE! THEY CALL THEMSELVES MUSLIMS, yet Islam DOES NOT TOLERATE WHAT THEY DO."

What you need to do is stop wasting your time telling us that Islam doesn't tolerate what they do, and put your energies into telling them that Islam doesn't tolerate what they do.

Because if they don't stop doing it, and soon, there is a very high probability that all of you will perish.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-02 9:42:28 AM||   2004-05-02 9:42:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#107 What very nice, gentle, polite people you are.
How very sweet of you to threaten me.
Unfortunately it won't get you anywhere.
Sorry about that Dave.
You know David was supposed to be very patient, you sure don't take after your name sake.

Jen: we see thing from different perspectives. We do tell these people to stop what they are doing.
Haven't you heard what the Imams have said?
You can't bind us to radicals, that just isn't the way it should be done.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 9:51:57 AM||   2004-05-02 9:51:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#108 Gentle, sorry, but we do read what the imams say--particularly the ones in Saudi Arabia and the news for we "infidels" isn't very good--it's "holy war" and fatwas against America, Jews and Israel all the time.
While we intellectually know that there are a billion Muslims worldwide, most of whom must be peace-loving, it's the radicalized (mainly Sunni Waahab) jihadi killers of kafir who have the megaphone that we hear and that Muslims feel inclined to obey.
Islam as a whole must be reformed or the alternative isn't pretty!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-02 10:00:29 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-02 10:00:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#109 Jen,
I am a Sunni Waahab.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 10:08:08 AM||   2004-05-02 10:08:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#110 "What very nice, gentle, polite people you are.
How very sweet of you to threaten me.
Unfortunately it won't get you anywhere."

I am not threatening you, Gentle; I am warning you of what will very likely happen if moderate Muslims fail to reclaim their faith from the violent ones who have proclaimed themselves the voice of "real" Islam.

You really, really, REALLY need to do this, before we are forced conclude that they ARE the real voice of Islam.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-02 10:17:07 AM||   2004-05-02 10:17:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#111 Gentle, I'm going with Dave D. on this one, too.
If you are a Sunni Waahab, then you're at "Ground Zero" of the fundamentalist sect of Islam that MUST change the most.
Start the Islamist Reformation while there's still time.
If there's another big terror attack on America, we won't be so patient with you then.
Violence and murder of "infidels" (by this, I know that Waahabs mean Americans, Christians, Jews, and Shi'ites) must forever be removed from your religion as a way to wage "jihad."
Muslims the world over must decide that "jihad" means "inner struggle" and nothing more.
Nothing short of that will do and arguing about it won't accomplish anything.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-02 10:22:15 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-02 10:22:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#112 Hi Dave.
I've just posted an article.
I wish you would read it, then get back to me.
Thanks
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 10:25:30 AM||   2004-05-02 10:25:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#113 Here is the article:

ISLAM & HARMING THE INNOCENT..!

As far as the issue of violence, intolerance, and aggression against innocent civilians is concerned, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states:



No doubt, aggression against innocent people is a grave sin and a heinous crime, irrespective of the victim's religion, country, or race.
No one is permitted to commit such crime, for Allah, Most High, abhors aggression. Unlike Judaism, Islam does not hold a double-standard policy in safeguarding human rights.



Following, I would like to highlight some relevant Islamic principles based on the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah:



1. Islam Forbids Aggression against Innocent People


Islam does not permit aggression against innocent people, whether the aggression is against life, property, or honor, and this ruling applies to everyone, regardless of post, status and prestige. In Islam, as the state’s subject is addressed with Islamic teachings, so is the ruler or caliph; he is not allowed to violate people's rights, lives, honor, property, etc.

In the Farewell Pilgrimage, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, declared the principle that people's lives, property, and honor are inviolable until the Day of Judgment. This ruling is not restricted to Muslims; rather, it includes non-Muslims who are not fighting Muslims. Even in case of war, Islam does not permit killing those who are not involved in fighting, such as women, children, the aged, and the monks who confine themselves to worship only.



This shouldn’t raise any wonder, for Islam is a religion that prohibits aggression even against animals. Ibn `Umar, may Allah be pleased with them both, quote the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: "A woman is qualified to enter (Hell) Fire because of a cat which she tied, neither giving it food nor setting it free to eat from the vermin of the earth." (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

If such is Islamic ruling concerning aggressive acts against animals, in fortiori, the punishment is bond to be severe when human being happens to be the victim of aggression, torture and terrorism.



2. Individual Responsibility


In Islam, every one is held accountable for his own acts, not others'. No one bears the consequences of others' faults, even his close relatives. This is the ultimate form of justice, clarified in the Glorious Qur'an, as Allah, Most High, says, "Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses and Abraham who paid his debt: That no laden one shall bear another's load." (An-Najm: 36-38)



Therefore, it’s very disgusting to see some people – who are Muslims by name– launching aggression against innocent people and taking them as scapegoats for any disagreement they have with the state’s authority!! What is the crime of the common people then?! Murder is one of heinous crimes completely abhorred in Islam, to the extent that some Muslim scholars hold the opinion that the repentance of the murderer will not be accepted by Allah, Most High. In this context, we recall the Glorious Qur'anic verse that reads, "Whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind…" (Al-Ma'idah: 32)



3. Ends Do not Justify Means


In Islam, the notion “End justifies the means” has no place at all. It is not allowed to attain good aims through evil means. By the same token, alms collected from unlawful avenues are not Halal (lawful). In this context, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "Surely, Allah is Good and never accepts but what is good."



Thereby, in Shariah, with all its sources– the Glorious Qur'an, the Sunnah, consensus of Muslim jurists– aggression and violation of human rights are completely forbidden.



Besides, it is the duty of the Muslim scholars to do their utmost to guide the perplexed people to the straight and upright path."



Also, we'd like to quote the following Fatwa issued by Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America:

The Islamic position as regards non-Muslims is that they should recognize Allah’s Oneness and Prophet Muhammad as Allah’s Final Prophet. They should accept Islam to live happily and successfully in this world and to be saved in the Hereafter. It is Muslims’ duty to give them this message clearly, but without any coercion or intolerance. If others accept this message it is good for them, but if they do not accept, Muslims should still treat them with kindness and gentleness and leave the final judgment to Allah.

In our enthusiasm for Da’wah, we should not be intolerant and aggressive towards others, but in our politeness and civility we should also not give up our mission and message. We should not be intimidated to become quiet and we should not feel shy to tell the truth.

We must know that Islam is Allah’s way to salvation. Islamic message is unique, authentic and divine. Islam is for the whole world and all people are invited to accept this message. It is our duty to convey this message in the most beautiful and effective manner. We should be the witnesses of Allah to the world by our words and our deeds to all human beings.

www.islamonline.com


Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 10:42:20 AM||   2004-05-02 10:42:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#114 Gentle, we've heard this lip service paid over and over to Islam being a "religion of peace" but no-one in the West is buying it.
Perhaps one or 2 voices preach peace, but the rest of the imams and clerics preach murderous jihad in Arabic to the faithful.
It's good to know that there are Muslim clerics who preach peace, but the War on Terror won't be won until they all do.
Until then, the fact remains that terror attacks are done by Muslim terrorists, most of whom actually take or claim credit for them "in the name of Allah."

As a Christian, I will pray for you to convert to Christianity.
As Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but through me."
Under the Christian Faith, you as a woman will be treated equally with men.
Again from the Bible, "In Christ, there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free."
Posted by Jen  2004-05-02 10:52:45 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-02 10:52:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#115 Gentle,

Those are all fine thoughts, but there's not much point in directing them at us: they should be directed instead at those whose violence and hatred are making a bad impression of Islam.

I would like nothing better than to be able to conclude that Islam is, indeed, a "religion of peace." But I cannot reasonably be expected to do so on the basis of what you tell me, as long as so many others spew hatred and "Death to the Infidel!" rhetoric-- and so many others act on that rhetoric by waging violent jihad against us.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-02 11:09:54 AM||   2004-05-02 11:09:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#116 Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is considered, notice the CONSIDERED, one of the most "trouble-making" Imams!
So much so, that he is banned from entering certain "peace loving" countries.
What you have read just now are the words of one of the most feared terrorist encouragers.
Believe it or not, a lot of people think what he says is too violent.
Believe it or not!

Oh, and Jen: I believe in Christianity. I believe in Jesus, though as a prophet.
And Allah, whom I believe in, is God.

Dave: Please give me one site, one Imam that proves that what you say about muslims is true.
Just one, please.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 11:44:27 AM||   2004-05-02 11:44:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#117 Gentle, Jesus wasn't just a prophet: He is the Son of God.
Keep your imam--we know what we know and the Islam(ism) that most of us are familiar with are the jihadi "martyrs" and the "suicide bombers."
Muslims have had 1200 years to "convince" people that Islam is the "Religion of Peace" but all it took was one day--September the 11th, 2001--to prove that it wasn't.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-02 11:51:20 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-02 11:51:20 AM|| Front Page Top

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Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 10:24:08 AM||   2004-05-02 10:24:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#123 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 10:24:08 AM||   2004-05-02 10:24:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#124 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 11:41:10 AM||   2004-05-02 11:41:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#125 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-02 11:41:10 AM||   2004-05-02 11:41:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#126 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-29 9:38:32 PM||   2004-04-29 9:38:32 PM|| Front Page Top

11:41  Gentle
11:41  Gentle
10:24  Gentle
10:24  Gentle
09:51  Gentle
09:51  Gentle
09:51  Gentle
09:51  Gentle
21:23 Patriot62
11:51 Jen
11:44  Gentle
11:09 Dave D.
10:52 Jen
10:42  Gentle
10:25  Gentle
10:22 Jen
10:17 Dave D.
10:08  Gentle
10:00 Jen
09:51  Gentle
09:42 Dave D.
09:16 Jen
08:56 Gentle
05:51 Jen









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