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2004-04-24 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 12:56:15 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Don't buy any of it. All of the assumptions in that first para are incorrect, and the analysis of everything since April '03 is wrong. The whole glib false litany we've been getting from the latest fad bandwagon. Almost none of the issues noted were a question of numbers, but of strategic choices and intel. Dumps might have been secured if the entire US armed forces were sent, which still would leave the huge # of pre-collapse caches unaffected. Same #, different choices (smack Sadr early, more carrot/less stick in Sunni heartland past summer/fall, earlier resort to aggressive sweeps, less flaccid policy in the south WRT Iran intel, orgs. like Hezbollah) might have made a difference, but same choices with higher # unlikely to yield much different outcome.

Posted by IceCold 2004-04-24 1:43:33 AM|| 2004-04-24 1:43:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Ya know though, having 8 more regular army divisions and 2 reserve divisions might have been helpful. Too bad those were eliminated by Clinton.

Reducing the military, then complaining we don't have enough troops seems kinda hypocritical to me.

Posted by Ben 2004-04-24 3:37:17 AM|| 2004-04-24 3:37:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Ben> How can it be hypocritical since the "Project for the New American Century" weren't the ones that so reduced the military?

Or do you simply think that everyone who disagrees with you is a lackey of the Clintons?

The site I linked to is the definition of "neocon".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 8:56:26 AM|| 2004-04-24 8:56:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Americans are tired of these "woulda, coulda, shoulda's". This type of second guessing, is not resonating with the majority of the American population.

You are singing to the choir Aris. As each day passes, the country becomes more aware of the threat to our freedoms from Islamic extremists and becomes more committed to the war.

We recognize the spearhead into Baghadad was probably the most bloodless and spectacular victory in recorded history to date. Don't forget - our murder rate here at home is far higher than the death toll in recent months.

From where I sit, the choir is becoming more shrill, but the country is becoming more committed.

I suggest you try a different tactic. This one's not working well.

Posted by B 2004-04-24 9:26:21 AM|| 2004-04-24 9:26:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aris: How can it be hypocritical since the "Project for the New American Century" weren't the ones that so reduced the military?

Aris is right - this isn't hypocritical. The problem is that it's impractical. Our military expenditures are what they are. We should not increase them - we are not at all-out war, and the deficit is increasing at a tremendous rate. We should not increase taxes - they are too high in the first place, with federal, state and local taxes combined (counting social security and property taxes) at European levels. Expanding the force structure without increasing total expenditures is a way to obsolete our military - it can only be done by starving the equipment procurement machine - the very same machine that allows our forces to prevail at a relatively cost in friendly casualties. It is also the machine that enables us to win the kinds of large scale conventional wars we may fight against potential opponents like China and Russia.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-24 11:18:47 AM|| 2004-04-24 11:18:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I thought it when I heard the troop numbers initially, before the beginning of the war, it is based in a historical quote. Don't recall who said it originally, general of some stripe . . .

. . . when you are planning a military endeavor and devise the proper number of soldiers . . . double that number and you might be right.

OIW-Too much is never enough. On the other hand . . . did we have it to spare? I do not know enough about existing formations to talk intelligently about what we do or do not have.

Posted by Benjamin L Silver 2004-04-24 12:15:53 PM|| 2004-04-24 12:15:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Again, it doesn't really matter what they coulda, shoulda done. No one cares. We are where we are. There is nothing more annoying than people who sit around and say what we should have done. It's not productive.

American's understand that all contingencies couldn't be planned for. They want to move forward, not sit around and play the blame and shame game. The blame and shame game is the Arab's thing. That's why they are stuck in the year 700. Christianity allowed us to let it go and move forward several thousand years.

Posted by B 2004-04-24 12:27:52 PM|| 2004-04-24 12:27:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 "Again, it doesn't really matter what they coulda, shoulda done. No one cares."

They very much *should* care about learning from past mistakes.

"From where I sit, the choir is becoming more shrill, but the country is becoming more committed."

It's very good to become more committed -- but it'd be ever better when one also becomes wiser as well.

"I suggest you try a different tactic. This one's not working well."

If I cared for popularity votes I'd never have come to Rantburg, B.

If you never figure out what went wrong (nobody cares you say?), you are only doomed to repeat it next time around. You may not care about the waste of American lives for little gain, but I most definitely do.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 1:02:05 PM|| 2004-04-24 1:02:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Yeah, sure, Aris. You REALLY care about American lives. Much more than Americans do, uh-huh.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-24 1:29:32 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-04-24 1:29:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Robert Crawford, your belief or disbelief matters to me about as much as B's vote of popularity.

When B says "Don't forget - our murder rate here at home is far higher than the death toll in recent months.", I'd have used the exact same sentence as a reason to care about reducing the murder rate at home. B on the other hand is using it as a reason to not care overmuch about the death toll at Iraq.

Then again, perhaps I'm again "misreading him".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 1:52:52 PM|| 2004-04-24 1:52:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 He's doing what's called putting things in perspective. No, I don't expect you to understand it.

Your arrogance at presuming to care more about American lives than actual Americans do is breathtaking.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-24 2:03:02 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-04-24 2:03:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "The site I linked to is the definition of "neocon"."
Actually, it's not. It's just the opposite--it's run by William Kristol and Robert Kagan and as such, is the epitome of the "paleocons."
This is another hit piece on Rumsfeld and the way he's been running the Dept. of Defense and the war.
There's nothing wrong with our military--it's the war of hearts, minds and memes here at home that's the problem and criticizing men like Rumsfeld while we're at war is, as Rummy himself would say, "not helpful."
Rumsfeld isn't dumb and if we need more Army divisions and less techno toys, he's doing something about it.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 2:04:50 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 2:04:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Jen--

Weekly Standard is neocon (Irving Kristol is most famous user of name, having written a book about it). Paleocon is Pat Buchanan. I don't think you'll find many pro-war paleocons.

Posted by BMN 2004-04-24 2:07:28 PM|| 2004-04-24 2:07:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "He's doing what's called putting things in perspective."

The end result is the same -- that he seems to me to feel there aren't enough American casualties that we should feel concerned about them.

"Your arrogance at presuming to care more about American lives than actual Americans do is breathtaking."

Only if I was nationalistic. Which I'm not.

You see, non-nationalistic people are allowed to try and care about people from other nations as much as they care about people from their own. Strange concept, I know, caring about all human lives regardless of nationality.

The same way that non-racist people are allowed to care about the lives of people from other races as much about the lives of people from their own.

Many people here have also cared to presume that they care more about the lives of Iraqis than Saddam did, or about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas or Arafat did. I don't blame them. I am among them.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 2:19:31 PM|| 2004-04-24 2:19:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 BMN, true but William Kristol is an odd duck and to call him a "neocon" is being more than generous.
His Conservative ideology isn't all that transparent.
This is a hit piece on Rumsfeld--Trust me.
(I wouldn't put it past Aris Katsaris to be poking sticks at Jews and Zionists by posting this, plus his remarks above about "certain people not caring about the lives of others from other nations or cultures.")
What holier-than-thou drivel, AK!
Mr. Fabulous the Greek cares about everyone!
Well, get a grip, pal!
Americans care about people from all nations and all races.
But they're wearing out their welcome.
When men from other races and nations kill 3,000 of us in an hour and a half on our soil, we tend to get all nationalistic and "rascist" (in the sense that Middle Eastern Muslims are going to get racially-profiled) on your ass in a hurry!
Katsaris, time to piss or get off the pot: Are you an American citizen posting in America or what?

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 2:31:01 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 2:31:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "Many people here have also cared to presume that they care more about the lives of Iraqis than Saddam did, or about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas or Arafat did. I don't blame them. I am among them."
P.S. Katsaris:
I do care about the lives of Iraqis.
I do not much care about the lives of Paleostinians; they chose to follow Arafat, believe his lies and do their bit to destroy Israel and the Jews by using terrorist murder.
As such, the "Palestinians" have taken the love of "nationalism" and "rascism" to its ugliest, most murderous and most horrible conclusion which is probably their own elimination and very few, except you, will shed a tear when that happens.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 2:37:06 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 2:37:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Americans care about people from all nations and all races."

Americans have diverse attitudes, the same way that people of every nationality have diverse attitudes.

That's another bit of nationalistic propaganda, when you try and claim that the attitudes of everyone within a nation are monolithic.

"Are you an American citizen posting in America or what?"

I'm a Greek citizen of Greek nationality posting from Athens, Greece. My apartment is near the borders of Pagkrati, Daphni and the city of Athens proper, three blocks away from the subway station "Agios Ioannis", named after the neighbouring church. The street is Artemonos. I will refrain from giving out the street number. My email address belongs to Otenet.gr, a Greek ISP provider. You can also reach me at my university account at the university of Athens, grad0473@di.uoa.gr. Want my cell phone number?

Cheers.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 2:42:12 PM|| 2004-04-24 2:42:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 And Jen, if I had any respect for you, I might be interested in which races and nations you care about and which races and nations you don't.

But then again the fact that you see the accident of descent as a significant criterion on which to judge whether human life has value or not, means by itself that I couldn't have respect for you.

Cheers again.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 2:45:09 PM|| 2004-04-24 2:45:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 AK, thank you for clearing that up--at least we know.
(Better get your fellow Greeks busy on the Olympic venues--I hear they're far from ready for the Games.)

Americans do care about people from all nations and races, as more than amply illustrated by our free trade, tourism, charitable and missionary giving, and our support of aid and funds to other countries as voted on by our Congress (which we all elect regardless of our "diverse attitudes"), which includes the passage of budgetary items like President Bush's $15 billion AIDS intiative for Africa.
You can hate America and Americans all you want, but it's baseless hatred.
And many Greeks (inter alia) have come here and made great lives for themselves, lives far better than the ones they would have had in Greece.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 2:48:32 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 2:48:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 "But then again the fact that you see the accident of descent as a significant criterion on which to judge whether human life has value or not,..."
I have no idea what you mean by this, unless you're trying to give the Paleos a pass because they were "born Palestinian."
The reason I gave for not caring about them was political, i.e. following Arafat and using terror.
Try again, Katsi.
If they were born Paleostinian, then they're "nation" is Jordan.
They know and you know it.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 2:52:20 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 2:52:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Jen> "AK, thank you for clearing that up"

Yeah, it's the very first time I *ever* mention I'm Greek or that I live in Greece, wasn't it?

Pfft.

"Americans do care about people from all nations and races, "

Some Americans do. And some Americans don't. As happens with every people in the world.

And you didn't condemn the followers of Arafat, whether just misguided or true bastards, you condemned the Palestinians as a whole because of what their majority did. That's accident of birth, and whether their nation-state is/should be Jordan or not is quite irrelevant.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 3:00:20 PM|| 2004-04-24 3:00:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 In poll after poll taken in the "Palestinian areas," the Paleostianian people have backed, by large majorities, Arafat and given their endorsement of terror attacks by to get what they want.
I'm no rascist and neither is my President nor the foreign policies of my country.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 3:04:36 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 3:04:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 So, when you say that you don't care about the lives of Palestinians, you actually mean that you don't care about the lives of the specific people participating in these "large majorities", or are you using the ethnic division as a unit whose members can be judged solely based on the attitude of the majority of that group, whether large or small?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 3:28:23 PM|| 2004-04-24 3:28:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 "neither is my President nor the foreign policies of my country"

I never claimed they were.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 3:32:16 PM|| 2004-04-24 3:32:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 "...neither is my President nor the foreign policies of my country." I never claimed they were."
Actually, you did--by innuendo and implication, you insinuated that I was a racist and a nationalist and so was President Bush, as were our national "policies" as supported by the American electorate.
This is precisely the kind of "reasoning" Osama Bin Laden used when he had America attacked on 9/11 and why he and the other Islamists are still waging a war against us now...because of American "rascist and nationalist" 'policies.'

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 3:44:01 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 3:44:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 No, by innuendo and implication I claimed *you* were a racist and a nationalist. I am pretty sure I never said anything about Bush or America's foreign policies.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 3:45:14 PM|| 2004-04-24 3:45:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 feel the *love*....

Posted by Frank G 2004-04-24 3:46:09 PM|| 2004-04-24 3:46:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Ah, I've missed Rantburg. Good to see Aris and Jen still going at it. My respects to both of you.

Posted by Proud Lil Kuffar 2004-04-24 3:48:53 PM|| 2004-04-24 3:48:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 And if I did I dare you to find me a quote that so insinuated it.

(Ofcourse all countries' policies are atleast *some* nationalistic, with the milder meaning of 'nationalistic' as nation-centered. But that'd be a truly weak accusation to make.)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 3:50:16 PM|| 2004-04-24 3:50:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Katsaris, you Greek asshat, I stand with my President and my country for "equal protection and equal rights under the Law" for all.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-24 3:52:46 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-24 3:52:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 "Katsaris, you Greek asshat, I stand with my President and my country for "equal protection and equal rights under the Law" for all."

Possibly. But if you weren't a nationalist (with the non-mild of meanings) I doubt you would have cared so much about whether I was Greek or not. When I was insulting people which I considered moronic assholes, I don't remember bothering to mention their ethnicities -- because I considered it trivial on the matter of their moronical assholeyness.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-24 5:02:30 PM|| 2004-04-24 5:02:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 B: There is nothing more annoying than people who sit around and say what we should have done.

"What we should have done" will have a big impact on whether (rational) people support the next militaristic endeavor. How many here for instance, would have supported the war in Viet Nam knowing that the outcome would be what it historically turned out to be?

It is too early to tell if Iraq is a big SNAFU, but if it turns out years down the road that it is, my support for any non-defensive military pursuit will be extremely hard to win. I'm sick and tired of half-assed jobs.

The other thing that sickens me is the casual acceptance of casualties as if anything below a pre-determined number is OK. "In Viet Nam we were losing 30 guys a day" so I guess anything below that number in Iraq is OK. Bullshit! How many of the 700 dead soldiers died without firing a single shot, while on patrol, in an ambush? About half. This is a stupid way of waging a war. If I agree with this article it is on the issue that not enough is being done. Either fight or get out.

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-24 9:02:09 PM|| 2004-04-24 9:02:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Remember the total deaths cited also include a few heart attacks from older reservists, disease, car accidents, etc. Not all are combat deaths. And the great majority of combat deaths have been from roadside explosives, not ambushes and firefights.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-04-24 9:04:50 PM|| 2004-04-24 9:04:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 This is another bogus argument. It doesn't matter whether they say that we need more troops in Iraq or that we need a draft. The stark fact is that Congress sets the troop levels, not the Executive Branch. If they want more troops, they should authorize and fund a larger force structure. Until they do or advocate that, they should just STFU.

Posted by RWV 2004-04-24 9:16:54 PM|| 2004-04-24 9:16:54 PM|| Front Page Top

17:19 Sharon in NYC
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