Article

2004-03-30 Arabia

Saudi Islamic Scholarâs Website Justifies Executions of Apostates

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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-03-30 12:58:22 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'm waiting breathlessly for the howls of outrage from Human Rights Watch to begin...

[sound of crickets]

Nope.

You know, I'm having a harder and harder time thinking of Islam as a "religion" and an easier and easier time thinking of it as an evil, neolithic death cult. These damned people aren't oppressed by American imperialism or world Jewish conspiracies: they're oppressed by Islam.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-03-30 3:29:45 AM|| 2004-03-30 3:29:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 In the UK we now have The Islamic Human Rights Commission (oxymoron of the year) who wilfullly ignore the savagery inherent in Muslim societies and protest that poor girls in France can't wear headscarves or that muslims in the UK are falling under increasing suspicion. Well worth a visit - if you wish to tremble with anger.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-03-30 3:51:40 AM|| 2004-03-30 3:51:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 That's OK, Howard. Whenever I feel the need for a fast rush, I just go to the John Effing Kerry campaign website: it's good for at least a 50-point spike in blood pressure.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-03-30 4:12:17 AM|| 2004-03-30 4:12:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Each to their own I suppose. That Kerry guy certainly gets my goat as well. Grrr Grrr...

Posted by Howard UK 2004-03-30 4:30:23 AM|| 2004-03-30 4:30:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Do these guys have some hot key combo that automatically puts in the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

Posted by Cheddarhead 2004-03-30 6:29:13 AM|| 2004-03-30 6:29:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Those Muslims . . . may think that the apostate has only left Islam because of what he has found out about its real nature, because if it were the truth then he would never have turned away from it.
You know, call me crazy, but I think the guy just hit the nail on the head: they leave Islam because they figure out it's nothing but a rigid form of brutal 7th century control mechanisms and hate-spreading beliefs wrapped up in the form of a religion. Stands to reason someone would leave it if they'd figure this out. But the mullahs can't have that, now, can they? I mean, they may think that, but we can't have them knowing that it is actually the truth . . .

Posted by The Doctor 2004-03-30 7:23:19 AM|| 2004-03-30 7:23:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Cheddarhead -- I think they map that macro to Alt-Space.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-03-30 9:07:49 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-03-30 9:07:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Same reason you can never leave the mafia. The kiss of death. Islam isn't a religion. It's a criminal org. That's why this isn't a religious war but a war on enemies of western civilization.

Posted by Lucky 2004-03-30 10:05:08 AM|| 2004-03-30 10:05:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Pretty much all religions tend to become (and occasionally start out as) criminal orgs, until the people under their oppression strike them hard and force them to turn harmless in order to survive at all. When religions end up saying "let us be" rather than "join or burn", that's when they can coexist with actual civilisation.

Most sects of Christianity were knocked that way (and forced to coexist with civilisation) some centuries back. Before that time we had heretic burnings, Spanish inquisition, massacres of pagans, destructions of antiquities, etc, etc. Theodosius, Emperor of Byzantium, has been surnamed "the Great" by the Orthodox church, just because of the greatness of his brutality against everything and everyone pagan.

There are places where Christianity still hasn't learned that lesson well enough. But they are few.

In the Muslim world the situation is reversed -- Islam has been taught to coexist with civilisation only in a handful of places, like Turkey, Bosnia and the like. But the rest of it hasn't yet suffered a good enough blow.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 10:56:56 AM|| 2004-03-30 10:56:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 There are places where Christianity still hasn't learned that lesson well enough. But they are few.

Name 'em Aris.

Posted by Ptah 2004-03-30 12:41:46 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-03-30 12:41:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Hale Boppers?

Posted by Lucky 2004-03-30 1:05:02 PM|| 2004-03-30 1:05:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 mainly in Aris' neighborhood, Ptah.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-30 1:07:14 PM|| 2004-03-30 1:07:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris: Right. Islam does a great job in Bosnia and Turkey--flowers fall from the sky and butterflies flit and patter as the Islamics dance and prance with their non-Islamic neighbors. You gottabe kidding!

I wonder, would you say the "actual civilization" realized in Communism is best for everybody, Aris?

Also, I'm amazed that you think you can purvey your tilted interpretation regarding Orthodox Byzantium on this site without challenge. Some of us know better. If you want to leave or sell out the truth in your heritage do so--that's up to you. Just be honest. We all know what the Turks, with the help of the barbarian infiltrators in Rome did to the Byzantines. Besides, wasn't Theodosius' wife the one who persecuted St. John Chrysostum--a true believer--for calling them to account? Your reference to heretic burnings, the Spanish inquisition, destruction of antiquities, etc. are always done BY the heretics--the ones who use religion as an excuse to do what they'd do anyway. They're liars and servants of the evil one. That's what makes them heretics. They disavow the Faith.

In fact, I'm sure you know that Mohammad himself was considered a heretic, and was kicked out of an Orthodox Christian seminary because of his adherence to kooky ideas which he refused to repent of and abandon-- i.e., he was a murderous, abusive oppressor and a cult leader, with serious control issues. His present-day adherents take after him in those regards, don't you think? They love to say, and very much believe, like he did, that the "christians" are the ones oppressing them! Sometimes the truth about history depends on who's doing the talking.

Certainly history is replete with the fake religionists. And it's true that sometimes they get the upper hand and cause great harm. That's why they're the bad guys. Not to be trusted, no matter what they call themselves. And, interestingly, they always call their opponents "heretics" and "infidels." Aris, stop lumping everybody together.

Another point--I've never heard the emporer Theodosius called "Great" or "Blessed" by the Orthodox church--and I'm no defender of the corruption that exists in the new calendar "church". So, I'm just curious, why are you so obviously identifying with the aggressor? Somebody, somewhere, make you mad?

Finally, what "good enough blow" would you suggest be sent their way? What should happen to the Islamic terrorists, in your opinion--to bring them in line with "civilization?"

Posted by ex-lib 2004-03-30 2:51:58 PM|| 2004-03-30 2:51:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 There's a Jesuit in the house.

Posted by Shipman 2004-03-30 3:40:46 PM|| 2004-03-30 3:40:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Very funny, Shipman--but no cigar! I was merely doing a little hunting. This site is dubbed RANTburg for a reason, no? And I surely felt the need to RANT on that one. Aris is so full of it, but likes to come off like he knows what he's talking about. I'm really sick of his many inaccurate and misleading posts. And I haven't heard from antiwar for a long time, so I'm not having much fun anymore. I'm taking bets, though, that Aris, like antiwar, won't reply to my points or questions. That's what I hate about those people--they never give me any rebut fun.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-03-30 5:11:29 PM|| 2004-03-30 5:11:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Ptah> In Greece, the Orthodox Christian church still wants everyone's ID Card to record people's religion -- and still demands the right to be authorizing the places of worship of other religious faiths. And ofcourse atleast two hours per week of a religion class, with a Greek Orthodox catechism point of view, not a neutral one, in all public schools starting from grade school all the way to high school.

And Christian public prosecutors with the support of the church, have more than once confiscated books that they thought to be "blasphemous", aka by portraying Jesus in either a humorous or a sexual way.

ex-lib> First of all it's "emperor" not "emporer". Sorry, but that's one of my standard spelling nitpicks.

Secondly, I don't plan to play the game of definitions which makes all Christians guilt-free, because if they had been Christians they'd have ofcourse been guiltless. The Vatican and its followers *claimed* that they were Christians, and this suffices for me to also call them "Christians".

"I've never heard the emporer Theodosius called "Great" or "Blessed" by the Orthodox church"

Since I'd have to search in an attic in order to find my old junior high textbooks, here's this link instead:
http://www.serbianorthodoxchurch.net/cgi-bin/saints.cgi?view=632149926239

The rest of your post is all but babble. The only one I'm seeing identifying with an aggressor is you.

"Finally, what "good enough blow" would you suggest be sent their way? "

Alas, I'm not so sure a lesson can be "sent" their way, anymore than the Protestant Reformation could have originated outside Christianity.

But secularism and complete separation of church and state is the key, obviously.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 5:17:57 PM|| 2004-03-30 5:17:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "I'm taking bets, though, that Aris, like antiwar, won't reply to my points or questions. That's what I hate about those people--they never give me any rebut fun"

Yeah, bets made against me in this forum have had a habit of kinda failing.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 5:20:07 PM|| 2004-03-30 5:20:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 I'm wondering btw if ex-lib will ever answer back, or miraculously happen tp understand that he's way out of his league in such a discussion.

Will we have to examine the role that the Orthodox Church played in supporting the seven-year junta, as well as the role it played in making Greek public feelings completely allied with the genocidal Bosnian Serbs, I wonder? These are in reality my two major grievances against it, more so even than the recenter book-~~burnings~~confiscations, and it's up to ex-lib whether the stuff I already mentioned aren't enough of an explanation why I'm supposedly "siding with the aggressor" aka "not turning a blind eye towards the crimes of certain Christian churches".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 5:40:12 PM|| 2004-03-30 5:40:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 examine the role that the Orthodox Church played in supporting the seven-year junta,

Damn, just a few rogue Colonels and Aris hates us forever.
Aris out of curiosity (no snark intended) what were the civillian casualties during the Cols. time?

Posted by Shipman 2004-03-30 5:53:35 PM|| 2004-03-30 5:53:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Shipman> I didn't realize you were a Greek Orthodox priest.

"what were the civillian casualties during the Cols. time?"

Not sure about the casualties - but there were some hundreds of thousands Cypriots displaced from their homes.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 6:02:32 PM|| 2004-03-30 6:02:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Ex-lib, are you there?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 7:35:13 PM|| 2004-03-30 7:35:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 LOL. Good Aris. Is this the whole Cols. thing still about Cyrpus then?

Posted by Shipman 2004-03-30 7:39:15 PM|| 2004-03-30 7:39:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Shipman> Not sure I understand you. The Cyprus division/ethnic cleansing was possibly the worst crime caused (indirectly but clearly) by the junta, should I not have mentioned it?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 8:03:48 PM|| 2004-03-30 8:03:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Aris> Certainly you should have mentioned it, but was that the worst aspect of the Cols. regime? The miscalculation?

Posted by Shipman 2004-03-30 8:22:23 PM|| 2004-03-30 8:22:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Theodosius, Emperor of Byzantium, has been surnamed "the Great" by the Orthodox church, just because of the greatness of his brutality against everything and everyone pagan.

Aris> Do you mean Theodosius I (379-395 A.D.) or Theodosius II (408-450 A.D.), and are you holding Christianity responsible for the socio-political culture of the day? I always thought religion was only one of many factors in society, and (just because they say so) a personâs claim to religion doesnât mean the person is religious. There again, sometimes political decisions donât look very âreligious,â but still might need to be made. [E.g., when Christ died on the cross he forgave the thief/bandit being crucified next to him (a religious act?), but the thief still died on the cross for the thiefâs crimes - probably highway murder (a socio-political necessity?)] If a King or Emperor has to kill enemies to defend the empire, does that divest him of his religion -- wonât he answer to God for his actions, not us?

Will we have to examine the role that the Orthodox Church played in supporting the seven-year junta, as well as the role it played in making Greek public feelings completely allied with the genocidal Bosnian Serbs, I wonder?

Are you talking about the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, who repeatedly condemned the âgenocidal Bosnian Serbsâ as criminals? Or are you talking about the Orthodox priests who recently (in response to the Church burnings in Kosovo) did everything they could to stop counter-attacks against mosques? Certainly you know there is a tremendous range of opinions and philosophies in Christianity in general (liturgical Protestants, nondenominationals, Catholic, Orthodox, etc.), and even a broad range of doctrine in the Orthodox Church (Old Calendar, New Calendar, etc.). If you are talking about the Greek Church that banished and abused Old Calendar priests, Iâm sure youâd find people who would tell you those arenât Christian people. Itâs a bit much to paint them all with the same brush, donât you think? There again, youâre not saying the rape, murder, and pillaging of the Bosnian Muslims was a good thing, are you?

But, what exactly is your point? That people who say they are religious arenât always telling the truth? That isnât news. Most religions are co-opted (at least to some degree) by political forces to be used as tools. I think true religion always opposes those trends.

Most sects of Christianity were knocked that way (and forced to coexist with civilisation) some centuries back.

No, I think the socio-political forces of the time either saw Christianity as a ânew vehicle,â or saw popular support for Christianity and âjumped on the bandwagon,â or genuinely were converted (at least some of them). Prior to social forces seeing a use for Christianity, Christians just pretty much got martyred (e.g., fed to the lions). Even to this day, Christians who lay down their lives to serve others less fortunate are far too often accosted or killed.

But, what does this have to do with the article, âSaudi Islamic Scholarâs Website Justifies Executions of Apostates.â Surely youâd agree this is a bit much, and goes to show the mentality of the Islamofacists?

Posted by cingold 2004-03-30 9:01:54 PM|| 2004-03-30 9:01:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Great thread, very cool. cingold rocks. Aris I still don't get your point much either. But in regards to the rightousness of killing people who chose to leave that shithead (raghead) mafia...

Thats the crux of my argument against the race of peace.

Posted by Lucky 2004-03-30 9:34:51 PM|| 2004-03-30 9:34:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 cingold> Half your post is babble. Who cares about whether an emperor will have to answer to God or not? The point is how living human beings treat him.

"Do you mean Theodosius I (379-395 A.D.) or Theodosius II (408-450 A.D.),"

Theodosius I ("the Great" according to modern Orthodox church), who destroyed pretty much every pagan temple he could get his hands of -- the Parthenon and the Athenean Acropolis only survived because of the reaction of the Atheneans who were willing to fight to preserve them.

Not to mention the many thousands he massacred in a stadium of Salonica.

"and are you holding Christianity responsible for the socio-political culture of the day?"

I thought I made it quite clear that I'm holding modern-day Christianity for its modern day attitude it holds towards certain old Byzantine emperors. Namely surnaming butchers "the Great" because of the greatness of their brutality.

"Are you talking about the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, who repeatedly condemned the âgenocidal Bosnian Serbsâ as criminals?"

I'm talking about the many Greek Orthodox priests who constantly were making speeches about our noble orthodox brothers fighting for their religion in Bosnia. They kinda neglected to mention the whole genocide thing.

"Itâs a bit much to paint them all with the same brush, donât you think?"

Whom exactly am I painting with the same brush? The Greek Orthodox Church is an organization with specific hierarchy, specific positions, specific attitudes. When they speak they can be judged. And when they stay silent likewise.

And I've judged them and found them about as horrible as the mullah of Iran.

Or is that "painting the mullahs of Iran" with the same brush?

"There again, youâre not saying the rape, murder, and pillaging of the Bosnian Muslims was a good thing, are you?"

You know what? Screw you.

"But, what exactly is your point? That people who say they are religious arenât always telling the truth?"

No, it's *other* people who care about whether those priests are really religious or not. I wouldn't give a damn about it either way.

"I think true religion always opposes those trends."

Oh, really.

"No, I think the socio-political forces of the time either saw Christianity as a ânew vehicle,â "

You don't even know what I'm talking about, are you? You see "a few centuries back" as meaning "a few millenia back"?

Are you intentionally being an idiot?

"But, what does this have to do with the article,"

You tell me, it's you who posted all that crap that had nothing with what *I* posted.

"Surely youâd agree this is a bit much, and goes to show the mentality of the Islamofacists?"

No shit, yah think?

But what about the mentality of the Christianfascists, do you have no comment on them?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 9:43:07 PM|| 2004-03-30 9:43:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Lucky> You said that Islam is not a religion, because it has rather medieval attitudes.

I said that Christianity also had medieval attitudes back in medieval times, and indicates how parts of Christianity (like the Greek Orthodox Church for example) still have medieval attitudes.

Clearer now?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 9:47:48 PM|| 2004-03-30 9:47:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Shipman> I wouldn't name an attempted instigated coup and conquest of a sovereign nation as "miscalculation". Nor do I think that the Turkish Cypriots would have had a kindly fate under a junta whose motto was "Greece of Christian Greeks".

So, conquest and ethnic cleansing was probably in their motives already -- how does it excuse them any on the moral level, that it was the Turkish and not the Greek intervention that ended up being the successful one?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-30 10:02:19 PM|| 2004-03-30 10:02:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Aris, When I saw the first tower burning that black day, 911, my first thought was Serbian payback. I hated what Clinton did in that conflict.

I don't remember saying anything about Islams medieval attitudes. Unless mafia style blood contracts are medieval, sounds plausible.

Religion to me is a relationship with God. I have recently made a pact with God regarding some personal health problems I'm struggling with. I'm sure once I've got over this I'll dog God and drink anyways. But that don't make God go away for me.

I'm clear now on your downer attitude in regards to the Greek Orthodox religion and I can except where your coming from. Like most Americans and most Rantburgers, I would assume, believe in a seperation of church and state. Antique churches must still try to hold sway as in the past. Thats good and thats bad but evil(?) Evil is death in the name of God. Doing evil in the name of God is the lowest form slim.

BTW. Children need a father, no.

Posted by Lucky 2004-03-30 10:10:06 PM|| 2004-03-30 10:10:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I think Cingold won the round, Aris. YES, REALLY, TRUE RELIGION OPPOSES THOSE TRENDS. A pseudo-sophisticate "oh really." doesn't cut it.

Posted by Ptah 2004-03-30 10:17:10 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-03-30 10:17:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 You know what? Screw you.
Aris, thereâs no need to get nasty -- unless you canât debate rationally, and (somehow) I think you can; so, thereâs no need to get nasty. I can see youâre a bit upset with the Greek Church -- well, so are a bunch of the monks on Mount Athos. So, are you a monk? Or, do you just see the same problems that the monks see, but choose to address the problems differently? The monks stay in the Church and try to militate for change back to the scriptures and teachings of the Canonical Fathers.

But what about the mentality of the Christianfascists, do you have no comment on them?
My point (so it doesnât get lost) is that all over the world, across time and culture, people are driven to ask themselves why we are here on earth and how we should treat each other. Many of the answers to those questions form the basis for the many religions of the world -- which (in their better forms) tend to have a lot of similarities (e.g., murder is bad, marriage is good, etc.). I like Christianity, and the Judeo-Christian tradition. It is the Christian scriptures and Judeo-Christian tradition that condemn the âChristianfascists,â just as the Serbian Patriarch condemned the âgenocidal Bosnian Serbs.â Kind of a âbegone from me, I never knew you,â kind of message. But, nonetheless, did the U.S. help the situation by bombing Serbia into submission to stop those âgenocidal Bosnian Serbs?â I donât think so. The political realities of Albania/Kosovo/Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia are not something that allows a quick fix. In contrast to the Christian scriptures and Judeo-Christian tradition, the Islamofascists are not far outside their holy book or traditions when they slaughter the innocents. They get praised by their âholy men.â âChristianfascists,â get excommunicated and put on trial -- and rightly so.

Posted by cingold 2004-03-30 10:52:46 PM|| 2004-03-30 10:52:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 If anyone wants to read my post to Aris, it's in the sink trap for some reason.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-03-30 11:56:00 PM|| 2004-03-30 11:56:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Oops! Must've tripped a troll trigger!

Posted by .com 2004-03-30 11:58:10 PM|| 2004-03-30 11:58:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 "YES, REALLY, TRUE RELIGION OPPOSES THOSE TRENDS."

Then Christianity hasn't been a true religion for the vast majority of its timespan. Then there probably hasn't existed a "true religion" throughout the history of human civilisation.

If you have counterexamples to produce, feel free to name them. But you didn't. And I doubt you do.

cingold> You are telling me "there's no need to get nasty" when you and that fucker ex-lib pretty much said I support crimes commited by Muslims?

Fuck you.

I won't play the denominational game with you. Your argument is pretty much that the Greek Orthodox are also "heretics" and that's why they are corrupt.

But WHO CARES? Who cares who is the heretic and who is the true believer? I find both of you to be a bunch of fruitcakes.

"In contrast to the Christian scriptures and Judeo-Christian tradition, the Islamofascists are not far outside their holy book or traditions when they slaughter the innocents. "

Really?
"15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. "

Oooh, much murder and mass slavery and rape of virgin girl -- which religious persona do you associate with all that? Moses!

Judeochristianism is as filled with commandments of slaughter as Islam is, as you would have known had you actually read its scriptures.

Or even if you had just read some Mark Twain, like "Letters from Earth".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-31 7:45:21 AM|| 2004-03-31 7:45:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 ARIS: Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I was sorting papers, feeding the dogs, and heating up dinner. Stuff like that. Don't feel slighted. I'm glad you responded.

I will now address your first very important complaint: The âeâ vs. âoâ mistakes in typing are among the most common because those two letters are the most-used vowels in English--like the âdâ and âkâ consonant mix-ups in typing, except that that particular problem comes about because of the opposite position placement of those commonly used letters on the keyboard. Even when one can, and does, spell words correctly most of the time, thereâs always that chance for a little slip-up now and then. Hopefully, Aris, that calms you down regarding your upsetting "nitpick,â as you put it. But you werenât really trying to correct my spelling deficits, were you? Were you, instead, perhaps, trying to âdamageâ my credibility by pointing out the mistake? I mean, it was the first thing you mentioned, and all. (Ah . . . the vitriolic, sneaky nastiness of some Greeks. Iâve found it doesnât matter whether the person is Greek âorthodoxâ or not. Itâs the same culture-bound disease either way--for those that bend that direction.)

Next, you say that all definitions in discussions of groupings of peoples are merely a matter of semantics. "The Vatican and its followers *claimed* that they were Christians, and this suffices for me to also call them "Christians". Well, thatâs just silly. People call themselves all kinds of things. It doesnât make it so. Itâs about what they DO, not what they SAY they are. Letâs see . . . how about a really, really, easy example of the problems with that approach: in discussions regarding John Kerry, should his claim that he's a âwar heroâ suffice for us to call him the same, since that what he claims to be? Okay. Have it your way. Those damn American war heroes! Blast them all! It follows that the bad guys who conducted the Spanish Inquisition could not actually have been considered to be âchristian,â by definition. Iâm not Roman Catholic, but didnât the current pope condemn and apologize for a lot of that stuff? Does that count? I think it at least counts for him as an individual.

Again, youâll not find me defending the organized Greek âOrthodoxâ Church political hierarchy, Aris. Nope. But you won't find me defending you either. âCause I think you're a meanie, too. And the fact that the political hierarchy have ruthlessly persecuted monks, priests and believers that refuse their innovations doesnât bother you? You don't mention it. The same is true in Russia. God help the people that offend the KGB Moscow âPatriarchate.â You don't rail on them either. And Russia's a pretty big country.

St. Chrysostom was persecuted by Eudoxia, Theodosius the Youngerâs mother. I think she did it behind Theodosius' back, or she lied or something--I canât remember. I would have to do more research. The politics of the time were laced with intrigue and not always justifiable, naturally. If the Orthodox are commemorating someone they shouldn't, that's too bad. But a word on pagan temples--very nasty stuff went on in those places, you know. And what do you care, anyway? Death to all religion!! Right? You would say no? But then what about the "pagans" who committed crimes against the Byzantine christians? Pretty bad stuff. Murder. Rape. Pillaging. The âpagansâ along with the false christians were the ones who burned all the libraries in Constantinople--a senseless destruction of gathered knowledge, and destroyed a highly developed society. How is it that you aren't holding just as much of a grudge against those guys? I think youâve got only one ax to grind, and you are inconsistent because of that fact.

You said the rest of my post is âall but babble.â Well, thatâs because Iâm a babbler from way back. No cure for that. I'm also way, way out of my league in such a discussion. I know. Oh well. It gives people like yourself a chance to vent. You'll never convince me you didn't enjoy it. But, didnât you find the tidbit about Mohammed the least bit fascinating? And how come you didnât respond to my challenge to your claim that Turkey and Bosnia are somehow examples of peaceful coexistence with other faiths? Everyone knows thatâs simply tosh. I noticed that you also called cingold's post babble. Is that your favorite cut-down or something? It doesn't explain anything in terms of a counter- argument.

You argue that a solution to Islamic terrorism is a separation of religion and state among Arab countries? Do you really think that would solve the problems? You didnât go into what you thought could happen within Islam to change their direction. For some reason I donât think the Islamofacists would suddenly lay down their weapons because of such a change.

I know youâre angry and bitter, Aris. Iâve noticed that it spills over into your posts quite regularly, and that you rely on it to supplement the points youâre trying to make in discussions. Maybe you have a right to be. I donât know your story. I do think your viciousness often interferes with, and greatly diminishes what youâre trying to say, though. I also think you should question ALL oppressors. The libs can be the absolute worst of the worst.

And, finally, it's âshe,â not he. Guess that might explain everything in some people's minds. Take care.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-03-30 11:46:07 PM|| 2004-03-30 11:46:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Aris: Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I was sorting papers, feeding the dogs, and heating up dinner. Stuff like that. Don't feel slighted. I'm glad you responded. I will now address your first very important complaint: The âeâ vs. âoâ mistakes in typing are among the most common because those two letters are the most-used vowels in English--like the âdâ and âkâ consonant mix-ups in typing, except that that particular problem comes about because of the opposite position placement of those commonly used letters on the keyboard. Even when one can, and does, spell words correctly most of the time, thereâs always that chance for a little slip-up now and then.

Hopefully, Aris, that calms you down regarding your upsetting "nitpick,â as you put it. But you werenât really trying to correct my spelling deficits, were you? Were you, instead, perhaps, trying to âdamageâ my credibility by pointing out the mistake? I mean, it was the first thing you mentioned, and all.

(Ah . . . the vitriolic, sneaky nastiness of some Greeks. Iâve found it doesnât matter whether the person is Greek âorthodoxâ or not. Itâs the same culture-bound disease either way--for those that bend that direction.)

Next, you say that all definitions in discussions of groupings of peoples are merely a matter of semantics. "The Vatican and its followers *claimed* that they were Christians, and this suffices for me to also call them "Christians". Well, thatâs just silly. People call themselves all kinds of things. It doesnât make it so. Itâs about what they DO, not what they SAY they are. Letâs see . . . how about a really, really, easy example of the problems with that approach: in discussions regarding John Kerry, should his claim that he's a âwar heroâ suffice for us to call him the same, since that what he claims to be? Okay. Have it your way. Those damn American war heroes! Blast them all! It follows that the bad guys who conducted the Spanish Inquisition could not actually have been considered to be âchristian,â by definition. Iâm not Roman Catholic, but didnât the current pope condemn and apologize for a lot of that stuff? Does that count? I think it at least counts for him as an individual. Again, youâll not find me defending the organized Greek âOrthodoxâ Church political hierarchy, Aris. Nope. But you won't find me defending you either. âCause I think you're a meanie, too. And the fact that the political hierarchy have ruthlessly persecuted monks, priests and believers that refuse their innovations doesnât bother you? You don't mention it. The same is true in Russia. God help the people that offend the KGB Moscow âPatriarchate.â You don't rail on them either. And Russia's a pretty big country.

St. Chrysostom was persecuted by Eudoxia, Theodosius the Youngerâs mother. I think she did it behind Theodosius' back, or she lied or something--I canât remember. I would have to do more research. The politics of the time were laced with intrigue and not always justifiable, naturally. If the Orthodox are commemorating someone they shouldn't, that's too bad. But a word on pagan temples--very nasty stuff went on in those places, you know. And what do you care, anyway? Death to all religion!! Right? You would say no? But then what about the "pagans" who committed crimes against the Byzantine christians? Pretty bad stuff. Murder. Rape. Pillaging. The âpagansâ along with the false christians were the ones who burned all the libraries in Constantinople--a senseless destruction of gathered knowledge, and destroyed a highly developed society. How is it that you aren't holding just as much of a grudge against those guys? I think youâve got only one ax to grind, and you are inconsistent because of that fact.

You said the rest of my post is âall but babble.â Well, thatâs because Iâm a babbler from way back. No cure for that. I'm also way, way out of my league in such a discussion. I know. Oh well. It gives people like yourself a chance to vent. You'll never convince me you didn't enjoy it. But, didnât you find the tidbit about Mohammed the least bit fascinating? And how come you didnât respond to my challenge to your claim that Turkey and Bosnia are somehow examples of peaceful coexistence with other faiths? Everyone knows thatâs simply tosh. I noticed that you also called cingold's post babble. Is that your favorite cut-down or something? It doesn't explain anything in terms of a counter- argument.

You argue that a solution to Islamic terrorism is a separation of religion and state among Arab countries? Do you really think that would solve the problems? You didnât go into what you thought could happen within Islam to change their direction. For some reason I donât think the Islamofacists would suddenly lay down their weapons because of such a change.

I know youâre angry and bitter, Aris. Iâve noticed that it spills over into your posts quite regularly, and that you rely on it to supplement the points youâre trying to make in discussions. Maybe you have a right to be. I donât know your story. I do think your viciousness often interferes with, and greatly diminishes what youâre trying to say, though. I also think you should question ALL oppressors. The libs can be the absolute worst of the worst.

And, finally, it's âshe,â not he. Guess that might explain

Posted by ex-lib 2004-03-30 11:52:07 PM|| 2004-03-30 11:52:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 ex-lib, you GO, girlfriend! LOL!

Posted by Jen 2004-03-31 8:09:00 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-03-31 8:09:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 "People call themselves all kinds of things. It doesnât make it so. Itâs about what they DO, not what they SAY they are."

Ah, that's why I guess there can exist no good muslims, and no bad christians. Because Good Muslims even if they claim themselves to be Muslims, they must obviously be non-Muslim if they are good. And Bad Christians, even if they claim themselves to be Christian must obviously be non-Christians, if they are bad.

The sad thing is that Rantburg is populated by people who think that's a worthy argument.

Look here -- I don't give a damn about the criteria you feel God uses to separate the followers of Christ, from the non-followers of Christ. But it's considered a measure of *sanity* when in debates, we actually allow people to self-define what their Religion is.

Which people do YOU consider to be "Christians"? Only that part of the Eastern Orthodox that follow the old calendar? Answer me that or don't answer at all.

"The same is true in Russia. God help the people that offend the KGB Moscow âPatriarchate.â You don't rail on them either. And Russia's a pretty big country."

Ooh, yeah, that's another characteristic of me, as Rafael will see fit to explain, that I'm so very much lenient towards Russia. The tiny little fact that I've repeatedly and constantly attacked Russia in this forum (and Putin) for its backslide towards tyranny is probably another little thing that failed to catch your attention.

"If the Orthodox are commemorating someone they shouldn't, that's too bad. But a word on pagan temples--very nasty stuff went on in those places, you know"

By the time of Theodosius when these temples, among them one of the Wonders of the Ancient World, were destroyed? No they weren't.

"And how come you didnât respond to my challenge to your claim that Turkey and Bosnia are somehow examples of peaceful coexistence with other faiths?"

If I had ever made such a claim, I would have cared to back it up. But I won't be challenged to defend claims I never made.

"You didnât go into what you thought could happen within Islam to change their direction."

Reformation.

"The libs can be the absolute worst of the worst."

Yeah? Why? Because they say you should be able to worship any religion you like without needing a permit from the state to do so?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-03-31 8:19:08 AM|| 2004-03-31 8:19:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Judeochristianism is as filled with commandments of slaughter as Islam is, as you would have known had you actually read its scriptures. Hmmm, like the whole context for Numbers 31:15-18?

"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?"--so asketh the last man and blinketh.

The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything small. His species is ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth longest.

"We have discovered happiness"--say the last men, and blink thereby.

Thus Spake Zarathustra
by Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Aris, you blink. Considering the context of how warfare was waged in those days, the conquest by Moses (in light of what the Midianites had done) was tame. Also, you have to read the Bible more -- the spared women werenât raped, although they could be married. It was more the annihilation of an enemy culture than anything and, again, given that day and age was pretty tame.

Look all over the world (and maybe outside your little corner of Greece), is there any greater freedom of religion and politics anywhere in the world that is not in a country heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian worldview? And the forces within our societies that call us to become even better, more humane, all have Judeo-Christian roots. You set up a double standard, which is why I accuse you (maybe just indirectly, maybe directly) of supporting the atrocities of the Bosnian Muslims (no need to curse again, just answer the question). Take that culture, that time, and compare the actions of Christians versus Muslims. The âorganized Churchâ condemned the genocidal Bosnian Serbs! The Muslim reaction to Islamofascist excess? Nothing negative that I am aware of, how about you?

Posted by cingold 2004-03-31 6:51:06 PM|| 2004-03-31 6:51:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Aris, calm down. You are being very angry again. I may have offended you by being flip, but I am not your enemy. I think you are interesting. Kind of wild--but interesting.

1) Probably--about your first point in #39. But you are attempting to work with cloudy definitions. OF COURSE there can be "Muslims" that are righteous. OF COURSE there can be "Christians" that aren't. But, what is a Muslim? How does the good Muslim define their own "Muslimness." How about the bad Christian? How does he or she define their supposed "Christianess." Cut through the labels. You're missing my point. If anybody is "good" it's because of what they DO, not what they say, or what label they carry. That's the point. Forget about "God's criteria," if you'd like. Judge for yourself. You can see if what others do is generally reasonable, noble, kind, just, etc. But then, you ultimately have to ask youself about the definition of "good." The guys that butchered the foreigners in Iraq today probably thought they had done a "good" thing. So did Stalin, Hitler, Sadaam--tons of people in the past and in the present. Or did they? Maybe questions of good and evil aren't and weren't their concern. Who knows. We can decide things about what they did, though, right? This question of what is "good" will inevitably lead to certain spiritual questions about the nature of man and the universe, and about absolutes, and if we can ever be truly good apart from divine intervention. I haven't had much luck at it, that's for certain. How about you?

2) You said in post #9 that "Islam has been taught to coexist with civilisation only in a handful of places, like Turkey, Bosnia and the like." I don't agree that that's the case. But I wish it were the case. Turkey and Bosnia weren't examples that proved what you were trying to prove.

3) I said the "libs can be the worst of the worst" because they DO all kinds of bad things--they destroy people's careers for not thinking exactly like they do (remind you of anybody?), they lie to the public to bolster their cause, and many have absolutely no respect for life.

4) I'm sorry Greece requires a "permit" to worship. If that's true, that's pretty crazy. Were you denied a permit or something? Were friends of yours hurt by that law? I certainly don't agree with that law at all, Aris. I think the Greeks tend to be paranoid as a culture. Doesn't justify it, but might explain it.

5) I didn't know you are at odds with the leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate. Good for you. They're scary guys and very oppressive, which I believe is something that would greatly offend you. I've only joined this site about two weeks ago, so I haven't gotten to know everyone's opinions on the many topics discussed. I'm sorry if you misunderstood and took offense. I brought up the point about Russia because I wanted to see where you were coming from--is Aris mad at everyone who is being tyrannical, or just the Greek Orthodox hierarchy? Now I know.

6) My point and question about Constantinople, was to inquire whether you thought that type of thing was an atrocity or not. Or how about those Buddah's in Afghanistan? What's you answer?

7) What kind of "Reformation" for Islam? What are your ideas?

8) You asked, which people do I consider "Christians?" Men of goodwill. People who truly remind me of Jesus in thought, word, and deed. People that are able to walk in love. (That's why the Spanish inquisition and all the rest did not take place through "Christians." Actual followers of Jesus couldn't have.) The focus in the true Faith, really is on the One, Jesus, not on those who "claim" to be his followers. Each person has to be considered as an individual. Not all true Christians can be categorized or named or labeled. They are scattered here and there. Some of them don't even know that's what they are. (I'm probably infuriating you--but this is what I believe) They follow, by choice, a higher call, toward that which is in line with life and truth and love for one's neighbor. I think being a follower of Jesus Christ is about allowing a transformation from Him to take place in one's heart, mind, motivation and such, toward the good as He defines it. It's not about belonging to a certain group at all. It's about a Person and an honest relationship with, and response to, that Person.

9) Aris, I used to hate Christians. I didn't actually know any real ones, but I thought the whole things was as stupid as could be. I have a challenge for you. Get a decent translation of the New Testament (maybe NASB, or NKJV ) and read ONLY the words of Jesus. ( And stay away from the Greeks. Some of them are phonies--and that's a fact--and they can be really vicious. ) Then, read the whole thing and consider what you find totally apart from your previous conditioning and experiences as much as possible--and I know that will be hard because of the injustices you might have suffered from those who claimed to be "Christians." Never mind about them. It might be different than what you think. Check it out for yourself, okay?

Posted by ex-lib 2004-03-31 10:52:06 PM|| 2004-03-31 10:52:06 PM|| Front Page Top

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