Article

2004-03-29 Europe

Spanish official pushes for Mideast solution

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Posted by Steve White 2004-03-29 12:04:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Anonymous3957 TROLL 2004-03-29 12:20:28 AM|| 2004-03-29 12:20:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I think we should welcome him. He wants to cooperate, send those troops to Kosovo so we can move on.

Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-03-29 1:08:53 AM|| 2004-03-29 1:08:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 [rant]
I'm sure someone priding him/her self in the "moderate" and "reasonable" role will take exception, but that's the way it goes. Knock yerself out. No, really. Knock yerself out - I suggest a greasy ball peen hammer to the crown of thy pointy head. I love the visual of such a clash of geometry.

Anyway.

The "old slogans" are the threadbare absurd puppet-mouthing inanities that the Paleos are at the center of the fucking universe. Puhfuckingleeze. That's about the stupidest notion possible. It is the hemorroid in the anus of the smallest flea on the tip of the tail of the dog. People who buy this are the stalwart citizens of Tardsville.

He wants to visit D.C? Fine. Buy a ticket. Book a tour. Wanna pretend that you are a player, fine, add on an El Lay leg and rent a limo. Visit Planet Hollywood. Be sure to buy a shitload of t-shirts for the little tards back in El Socialissimo.

Once upon a time, Mark Twain "ranked" humanity from 1 to 10. The bottom three were Congress, the savages, and the French. Today, with sincere apologies to Mr Clemens, I would suggest the bottom three are Socialists, Communists, and Islamists. When we are in need of advice, I'm certain we will find worthy input long before we reach the Socialists. And, BTW, we don't want to hear you say, "Yes, sir. Yes, sir" -- we don't want to hear you at all. There is no "tension" - you have rendered yourselves irrelevant untrustworthy bystanders. Don't worry, future contact will not come in the personage of our SecState, we'll leak it to USA Today and you can read it there. Spain. How far you have fallen. When you have embarrassed yourselves sufficiently, then send us a message. Put it in a bottle and make it a day at the beach.
[/rant]

Posted by .com 2004-03-29 2:51:25 AM|| 2004-03-29 2:51:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I'm sorry .com, as much as I smile and enjoy your rant, only we, only Washington can make the Spanish, "irrelevant untrustworthy bystanders."

It's not something we should do. They stood by us when the going was tough...they are trying to take a mature apporach now and Washington should welcome it.

This doesn't mean that we should clasp them to our bosom, but we need not kick them in the balls either.

This will be a long, long, long war, Governments will come and go...we already have real enemies, we don't need to manfacture the Spanish into something like al-Q and treat them as though they are exactly alike.

They aren't....lol

Best Wishes,

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-29 3:13:47 AM|| 2004-03-29 3:13:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Sorry, Traveller, but I agree more with the hilarious dotcom.
In just a couple of short weeks, Zapatero has taken the Spanish bull and charged him willy-nilly into the world fray, with the very wrong Socialist bent.
Zappo wants to pull their troops out of Iraq--fair enough, I guess, but then this doesn't give him the liberty to start criticizing current U.S. policy vis-a-vis the Israeli-Paleo "crisis."
Withdrawing troops from the Coalition says to me, "Spain is no longer a player in the WOT."
Or at the worst, they're not a major player for the Good Guys.
To meddle in the Middle East problem hints strongly that Spain will be on the side of the "Palestinians," which, as Rummy would say, is "not helpful."
Particularly when there's been some hope of late that the EU might look a little less fondly on the PA and when Britain has frozen Hamas funds at last.
Nor should Zappo have rushed to approve that awful EU Constitution, but he did and even though it was thought to be dead 6 months ago, Zappo's willingness to sign it single-handedly put its acceptance back on track.
I think only the UK can stop that train on the tracks now.
The man is a budding demagogue who was backed by 2/3 of the Spanish people--the more he rants, the more he scares me.
Dotcom is right about the message in the bottle.
The less we listen to Zapatero's rantings the better.
All we can do is hope and pray that the Spanish realize their mistake and recall this loon before he does more damage to the Western world!

Posted by Jen 2004-03-29 4:29:33 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-03-29 4:29:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Well, Jen, both you and .com make compelling arguments. I would agree that at least so far Zapatero seems to be....nuts?...lol

But my real problem is with the reading of the Spanish Election and giving al-Q much more credit than they deserve. All this Spain bashing is not only, IMO, making matters worse, it is giving al-Q a fuller victory than they deserve.

Here's the thing, Of course Madrid Bombing was a victory for al-Q...tactically, because they could pull the bombings off in a coordinated & spectacular fashion, and strategically, because of the impact that this has had on the world in general.

The won a big one in Madrid. But so what? Wars are long and almost tidal in the giving of victory and defeat...As many people have noted, this is going to be with us for a long time.

What I think I object to is how the Spanish election is being used to bolster this interpretation or that. I still think that the world is reading the Election results wrong, but most unfortunately, the Islamist are also and may well draw the wrong lessons.

The PP and Aznar had been in power for a full 8 years. That is a long time in political, democratic time, and electorates are know & notorious to swing right to left and back left to right. There is nothing surprising in this. What would have been surprising would have been if Aznar and the PP had held on to a Parliamentary majority. That would have been very unusual and noteworthy.

What would be really interesting would be if we could enter an alternate time-line where there was no Madrid bombing....and how foolish we would all look and feel because Aznar lost anyhow and we would then still have to deal with Zapatero.

At least thatâs my take on it.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-29 6:10:37 AM|| 2004-03-29 6:10:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Traveller

ALL the polls predicted a clear victory of the PP, the only question was if the PP would be forced to form a coalition or if it would be able to govern alone (ie would get over 50% of the represntatives).

Also the voting of the expats (who have ever been in good correlation with the general exlctorate) who was closed before the bombings gave a clear victory to the PP.

Everything points to Sapotero owing his victory to eth opportune errors made by the Al Quaida team. Like forgetting a K7 for learning Koran in the van or having bombs who didn't explode

PS: Sapo means toad in Spanish.

Posted by JFM 2004-03-29 7:26:42 AM|| 2004-03-29 7:26:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 No small irony here that the supposed mastermind behind the Mardid bombings Zarqawi is a palestinian who travels on a Jordanian passport. And now the root case is the Paloe situation.

It depresses the hell out of me that this is clearest win I have ever seen for terrorism and can only result in much more of the same now it demonstrably works.

Posted by Phil B 2004-03-29 8:29:07 AM|| 2004-03-29 8:29:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Traveler - yes the spanish do deserve a good kick in the balls. They have been struck and dont realize they are at war yet. I predict more suffering in spain because of it.

"we are not in munich" - I beg to differ.

Posted by flash91 2004-03-29 9:59:19 AM|| 2004-03-29 9:59:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 traveller: we already have real enemies, we don't need to manfacture the Spanish into something like al-Q and treat them as though they are exactly alike.

This is a straw man. We're not confusing the Spanish electorate with al Qaeda. We're saying that they're a bunch of back-stabbers. We share a lot, but not all, of the same values. But we're also bound by a mutual defense treaty that is mutual only in name. The fact that Spain has chosen to withdraw its troops is a real betrayal. We don't *need* their troops, but the withdrawal is a sign that the Spanish aren't allies, but neutrals.

And we're not treating Spain like al Qaeda either. If we were, Spanish leaders would be on the receiving end of JDAM's and Spain's Muslim terrorists would have been driven out under a hail of air-dropped bombs. Note that Europe, like Afghanistan, has been a real haven for terrorists. If the Europeans continue to harbor them - by refusing extradition to the US - there may come a time when we may need to issue the same kind of diplomatic threats we issued to the Taliban before we removed that government.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-03-29 10:31:06 AM|| 2004-03-29 10:31:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 definitely no more Spanish wines for me !!!
I swear i'll drink only Californian, Aussie and Israely wines from now on.
my little contribution to WoT and retribution against the Spanish socialists.

Posted by Colton L. 2004-03-29 10:39:47 AM|| 2004-03-29 10:39:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 colton if you are a smart you stay away from wine. im liking beer myself but have none this weekend so i drink 2 botle of wine that in my house. i feel so sick now and my head hurt real bad and i still taste wine in my mouth. i probly smell like a frenchman to now. stick with beer cuz this wine shit suck. im not be surprise if chainey make this stuff.

Posted by muck4doo 2004-03-29 10:50:29 AM|| [http://www.petatv.com/] 2004-03-29 10:50:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Muckie, if that is really u out there, you're a piece of work.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-03-29 11:16:51 AM|| 2004-03-29 11:16:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 "You can have a good strategy against terror, you can make Iraq democratic," Moratinos said, but those initiatives will fail unless world leaders realize "the heart of the problem is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Yawn. Forget about Zapatero and the rest of his kind until an election in Spain results in someone put into power that doesn't swallow the old the-heart-of-the-problem-is-the-Israel/Palestinian-conflict bullshit. No one in their right mind is going to think that any near-term "solution" to the above mentioned problem is going to put the brakes on terrorism.

After Zapatero's victory, President Bush said, "This (terrorist) enemy will never be appeased." Moratinos bristled at the statement. "What appeasement? We're not in Munich now. These are old slogans," he said, referring to the Munich talks of 1938.

Those are REALLY old slogans. Apparently though, slogans that are not as old (as in "the heart of the problem is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict") haven't reached Spanish Socialists' use-by date.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-03-29 12:12:08 PM|| 2004-03-29 12:12:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 You have to have faith AP, you just have to believe in Mucky.

Posted by Shipman 2004-03-29 12:47:14 PM|| 2004-03-29 12:47:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Read teh nuances uder what Moratinos is saying. Here is how I translate his actual statement, "we will move our Spainish troops into the West Bank to keep the peace - that is where we think the focus belongs." Have Colin Powell call him for clarification.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-03-29 1:15:38 PM|| 2004-03-29 1:15:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Here is how I translate his actual statement, "we will move our Spainish troops into the West Bank to keep the peace - that is where we think the focus belongs."

One patented Paleo boom and watch the Spaniards retreat a second time.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-03-29 4:01:32 PM|| 2004-03-29 4:01:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Too funny, B-a-R!
"Adios, muchachos! You're on your own!"

Posted by Jen 2004-03-29 4:02:57 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-03-29 4:02:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Fine, let Spain do it's thing. Let them deal with ME conflict. The only problem is they are going to have to deal with Israel and it's defense needs and a rabble on the other side. Good luck boys. I hope they aren't counting on an election change in the US to help them though.

Posted by Bill Nelson 2004-03-29 5:34:34 PM|| 2004-03-29 5:34:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Dear JFM, Jen and All:

I think that the criticism of my position that the polls showed the PP winning was the most serious. I have, however, checked the poll number and I fear that JFM's position that the PP was going to win before the Madird Boming is highly suspect and has become almost an Urban Legend.

Aznar and the PP's numbers had been falling in the the run up to the election, and stood at +3.5 before the bombing....However, the margin of error was 3.7 in the polling. But the trend was downward in any case.

It further seems that 92% of the Spanish population had alaread made up it's mind prior to Madird Bombing, 8% undecided. The after polling indicates that the 92% never changed, but much of the 8% went Zapatero. More importantly, turnout went from an anticipated 55% to 65%...this is where the election was won.

Lastly, Aznar's and the Government's approval rating before the Election stood at a measly 43%.

No, I stand by my original assertion...Aznar was going to lose anyhow. What is unfortunant is how this has been spun by the world...giving a free victory to the Islamist. Worse, all this harping at the Spanish only enhances al-Q's victory further.

Dem's de facts.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-29 5:45:35 PM|| 2004-03-29 5:45:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Traveller, what do you think he means when he says that solving the Palestinian crisis is the highest priority for Spain? Do you think he is ready to send troops into the West Bank to act as a buffer between the warring parties?

Posted by Super Hose 2004-03-29 6:15:53 PM|| 2004-03-29 6:15:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#22
Oh, Super Hose, the Palestinian question is far too tough to handle here...or anywhere for that matter....lol.

I am currenly in a fairly bitter debate with a friend that is a Diplomat where he is trying to change my pro-Israeli views...or at least for me to be more moderate toward the Palestinians.

He is making some good points and at the moment I am quite frankly in a re-evaluation of Israel and the Palestinians. I realize that I just can't call for the killing of 2 Million Paleo's...though I suppose that is where my logic leads.

So, I'm sorry, but I'm just going to bow out on this. Honest minds can differ...but I just don't know what I want to say on this anymore.

Best Wishes, Really

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-29 6:33:04 PM|| 2004-03-29 6:33:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Resist, Traveller, resist! Hold out - they'll destroy each other in a civil war which will refute any sympathetic arguments your friend, or anyone else, can possibly pose. Just hang on a little while longer...

Besides, your friend can't rewrite history without your approval.

Posted by .com 2004-03-29 6:41:09 PM|| 2004-03-29 6:41:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I realize that I just can't call for the killing of 2 Million Paleo's...though I suppose that is where my logic leads.

God No! That would be horrific! Usually killing 10 percent of the military age males is sufficient.

Posted by Shipman 2004-03-29 7:53:02 PM|| 2004-03-29 7:53:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 A full Roman Legion decimation? Something like what happened with Caesarâs rebellious 13th legion? Of course, what made a decimation so utterly frightening is that a soldier would never know who was coming up in a decimation. The men would be circled and then randomly, one man would be slaughtered and they would move then in units of 10's in both directions. A decimation was a terrifying thing to go through, but then, nine out of every ten was desperately relieved to just be alive.

I think I prefer the example Caesar set at the end of his Gallic campaigns where he lopped off the hands of every man, 5,000 or so, in the rebellious tribe and set them to wander across all of Gaul as an example of both Caesarâs mercy, and equally an example of his terrible wrath.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-29 8:49:34 PM|| 2004-03-29 8:49:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Now that I have an actual free moment, let me amend the above regarding Decimation.

The place was Uxellodunum, the tribe Drappes, and Caesar himself in Volume 8, sections 38 through 44, says that he had the "Hands," meaning presumably plural, cut off of everyone that held a sword.

There is an alternate story that Caesar only had the right hand cut off and this has troubled me for a while...which version was true? I far prefer the one handed story because the true story of Caesar in Gaul was pacification through his policy of clemency, which he carried over to good effect in the Civil Wars.

Well, I will just have to adjust my thinking on this. But I do appreciate being motivated to finally put this rest, even if it is not the way I wanted it.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-29 10:16:16 PM|| 2004-03-29 10:16:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Traveller, I don't know the answer to the Palestinian question other than being told that the Palestinian question should be my first priority by a dude who has no attention of helping is quite annoying. Moratinos can be part of the solution if he is willing to bleed, but as far as I'm concerned the spectator gallery is closed in Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq and in the West Bank.
The time for opinions ended when the suicide bombings began. I have friends that are Palestinians, but don't see how sending a check to Arafat serves their interests any better than governments selling missiles to Sadaam in 2002 served the interests of the Iraqi people.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-03-30 12:03:18 AM|| 2004-03-30 12:03:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Anonymous3957 2004-03-29 12:18:00 AM|| 2004-03-29 12:18:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Anonymous3957 2004-03-29 12:18:00 AM|| 2004-03-29 12:18:00 AM|| Front Page Top

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