Article

2004-03-17 Europe

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Posted by .com 2004-03-17 8:07:09 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I noticed this quote in the full article,

"For us, terrorism is almost banal," said my French professor...

Personally, I find Euro whining, boasting and bitching to be fully banal [boring].

Posted by mhw 2004-3-17 8:24:14 AM|| 2004-3-17 8:24:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 If anything the best proof that Europe is not a ntion but a mere bureautic creation was provided by 3-11. Over 25% of the total Spanish population went to the demonstrations. Even in Bilbao or Barcelona they were MASSIVE. But go to any other European country and what you have? At most a few hundreds of demonstrators, most of them Spanish expats. In other words, French, Portuguese, Greeks (that is for you Aris) didn't feel as if they had lost some of their own.

I then went to the websites of the right wing Figaro and left wing "Petainisation" (offical name is Liberation) and whuile there is shock and horror there was also plenty of understanding of the terrorists (that was before Al Quaida was mentionned) and the "distance" towards the victims was ever present.

I never felt the solidarity toward the victims that I felt in Rantburg and similar American war on terror or Republican blogs.

Posted by JFM 2004-3-17 8:35:11 AM|| 2004-3-17 8:35:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "If anything the best proof that Europe is not a nation "

We are not a nation *yet*.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 9:02:28 AM|| 2004-3-17 9:02:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 "If anything the best proof that Europe is not a nation "

We are not a nation *yet*.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 9:02:40 AM|| 2004-3-17 9:02:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Never a nation. Only an empire run by an incestous cabal of self appointed elites.

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-3-17 9:26:42 AM|| 2004-3-17 9:26:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 You didn't quite finish the sentence, Aris. Let me try:

"We are not a nation *yet* some reality-challenged freakazoids think it's worth trying to pretend that we can be."

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-17 9:30:16 AM|| 2004-3-17 9:30:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Bulldog> Aye, a bit like those reality-challenged freakazoids named George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc, etc...

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 9:34:00 AM|| 2004-3-17 9:34:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I was thinking more like Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin, D'Estaing...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-17 9:44:31 AM|| 2004-3-17 9:44:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Our Founding Fathers didn't let Muslims or anyone else bully them around. The EU looks like one big repeat of the League of Nations. And we all know how that ended.

Posted by Charles 2004-3-17 9:48:38 AM|| 2004-3-17 9:48:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 No fucking way. Sick of going to Europe on holiday and being treated like a total fucking leper for being English. Fuck 'em.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-3-17 10:48:35 AM|| 2004-3-17 10:48:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I know what it's like, Howard. Apparently some foreign people use "sun lotion" in hot places. Keeps the blistering and peeling to a minimum.

"Mama, esta unas leper?!"
"AIIEEEEE!!! Runawaya Evrybodi!"

I hate that rubber sheets shit, too...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-17 10:58:17 AM|| 2004-3-17 10:58:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Sun lotion? A real man uses lard. Heh heh heh stupido Inglese!

Posted by Howard UK 2004-3-17 11:03:27 AM|| 2004-3-17 11:03:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Bulldog> "I was thinking more like Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin, D'Estaing..."

Yeah, because people like you can never distinguish between free voluntary unions and conquests through force and coercion.

Charles> "Our Founding Fathers didn't let Muslims or anyone else bully them around. "

No, they let slave-owners bully them around, which is why for a whole century the US didn't dare enforce its own constitution (the Fifth Amendment in particular, which made slavery unconstitutional).

And if EU is letting anyone bully her around, then that's not the Muslims, it's the UK.

As for the League of Nations, you are confusing the EU with UN -- or are just generally ignorant.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 11:32:01 AM|| 2004-3-17 11:32:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris: No, they let slave-owners bully them around, which is why for a whole century the US didn't dare enforce its own constitution (the Fifth Amendment in particular, which made slavery unconstitutional).

No real bullying involved - slave-owning was a fact of life throughout the Americas. The alternative to it was the loss of competitiveness. Without slavery to level the playing field with other slave-owning countries around the world, there would have been no United States - not that Aris would have minded. Other countries on the American continent would have surged ahead. When the British Navy managed to destroy the slave trade, that leveled the playing field. America's fortuitous industrialization provided the rest. Greece was too busy engaging in Greek-style love-making to participate in the festivities.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-3-17 11:49:53 AM|| 2004-3-17 11:49:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 (sidesteps the embers of European Nationalism)

Here's the response I got from the Spanish consulate.
--------------------------
Dear Sir/Madam,

The amount of messages of condolences, solidarity and support is being so overwhelming that we feel forced to write a common message of gratitude to all of you.

On behalf of the People of Spain, and on behalf the King Juan Carlos I and of our Government we would like you to know that we thank you deeply for this show of solidarity and friendship. Some of your messages were deeply moving some mirrored our anger and determination. We thank you all. And rest assured that terrorists and terror will not prevail. Together with you and with the other free and democratic societies of the World we will continue this fight until the end and we will win. Our common values and principles, our way of life are at stake.

Thank you all, again.

Francisco J. Viqueira
Consul General of Spain, Chicago

Posted by eLarson 2004-3-17 11:51:02 AM|| 2004-3-17 11:51:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution is a protection against a person incriminating themselves in court.

Posted by eLarson 2004-3-17 11:55:11 AM|| 2004-3-17 11:55:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Yeah, because people like you can never distinguish between free voluntary unions and conquests through force and coercion.

LOL Oh yeah, Aris, that's the defining characteristic of people like [me]: an inability to distinguish between voluntary unions and conquests through force and coercion. You're not holding back with the hyperbole today, are you?!

Tell me how, when the majority of Brits are opposed to greater union, pan-EU 'nationhood', through constitution onwards, as desired by Blair et al., would be voluntary? When opinion of the EU is in decline across Europe and enthusiasm for artificial union is waning, it's European Nationalists like yourself who are arguing to enforce something that would require coercion...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-17 12:05:13 PM|| 2004-3-17 12:05:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 EEEK! Slavery! Slavery!
Dude the last time I checked we had a war over that issue and we got over it. I believe we are talking about your future loss of whatever liberties you might have in the EU.

Geesh, How do we get run in a ditch in a thread like this? I'll quit before it becomes unseemly. My apologies to any relatives of the victims.

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-3-17 12:05:44 PM|| 2004-3-17 12:05:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Too bad Greece is also in line for Muslim reconquest. Once a Muslim conquest, always a Muslim conquest. The Parthenon will look cute with minarettes.

Posted by ed 2004-3-17 12:36:01 PM|| 2004-3-17 12:36:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Bulldog> "Tell me how, when the majority of Brits are opposed to greater union, pan-EU 'nationhood', through constitution onwards, as desired by Blair et al., would be voluntary? "

UK can leave the EU in an instant, once its people vote themselves a government that wants out.

Unlike what people like you want to believe in, EU hasn't used its mystical voodoo mind powers to control the brains of the people of the UK.

Once again: If you want to leave the EU, vote yourselves out.

Unfortunately the EU doesn't have any provision that allows itself to *force* you out, as I would dearly love to see done. This makes the responsibility for leaving or staying lie entirely on your shoulders.

That's kinda the *definition* of "voluntary union".

Not that people like you would understand it.

whitecollar redneck> "EEEK! Slavery! Slavery! Dude the last time I checked we had a war over that issue and we got over it. I believe we are talking about your future loss of whatever liberties you might have in the EU. "

Since so far our liberties have only increased in the EU (freedoms of movement, trade, employment, voting) I'd say that precedent in this respect goes in the EU's favour.

eLarson> Amendment V: "...nor [shall any person] deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;"

That makes slavery unconstitutional right there.

Zhang Fei> Wow, how original of you. I have *never* before heard cliched homosexual insinuations in this forum against the Greeks. How do you come up with this stuff?

Really brilliant and original. I mean it. Really.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 2:18:41 PM|| 2004-3-17 2:18:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Post race group hug infidel? BOOM!

Posted by Abu 2004-3-17 2:55:43 PM|| 2004-3-17 2:55:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Think you're just drowning in civil liberties over there, Katsaris?
When was the last time you EUros (or even just the Greeks) had a VOTE on anything that mattered?
I'll wait...*crickets*

Posted by Jen 2004-3-17 4:03:10 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-17 4:03:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Psst! Aris... Great Idea.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-17 4:04:21 PM|| 2004-3-17 4:04:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Jen> Well, the Spanish just had a vote that mattered -- some people here thought that it mattered so much that they threw outrageous hissy fits at the results and said they'd beat up the next Spanish people they encountered that voted for the Socialists. And we Greeks also just had a vote that mattered.

Did you have a point?

11A5S> Um, yeah? Why did you link that? Is this "post a non-sequitur" day?

If you want something generally shameful concerning Greece you don't need to go back 84 years. Go back to the junta and Cyprus.

And when you'll find your point, I'll be ready to hear about it, same as with Jen.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 5:11:41 PM|| 2004-3-17 5:11:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 We don't have to beat up the Spanish for their vote for IslamoFascist appeasement: either Al Queda will blow them up or under the threat of being blown up, the Spanish will now beat up THEMSELVES.
Great vote.
This is probably the last referendum you'll see on EUro-weenie soil where "the people" actually had a say. The rest of an "elections" will be for form's sake.
The EU idea of a "vote" is a demonstration in the streets--empty, but it makes the people "feel" better and AS IF they'd done something.
I hope to God that President Bush pulls us out of the Olympics.
I think they're a disaster waiting to happen and that the streets of Athens will be the "killing fields" of Summer 2004.
The Greeks are in no way prepared to handle any terror attacks and we can almost count on those.

Posted by Jen 2004-3-17 5:33:25 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-17 5:33:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Aris: It has the same relevance to present day events as slavery, which by the way you've brought up for the 50th time or so here in a debate. Now do you get my point?

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-17 6:03:54 PM|| 2004-3-17 6:03:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 11A5S: Unfortunately, squawking "slavery ! slavery!" is what Euros do when they run out of arguments or comebacks. Usually happens pretty quickly...

My advice is to laugh and treat it like Godwin would.

Posted by Carl in N.H 2004-3-17 6:11:14 PM|| 2004-3-17 6:11:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Give Aris credit for being a student of the US constituion. I would advise a cheap knock-off for the less developed nations/federations/city states.

Posted by Shipman 2004-3-17 6:13:41 PM|| 2004-3-17 6:13:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Jen> Careful with the spit there.

You've already proven yourself an ignorant brat -- why make things worse for yourself? You asked a ridiculous question with an all-too easy answer and yet expected there to be no answer at all. I answered it quite easily with two important examples from just the two last weeks. I could have also answered with the 20-something referendums of yesteryear, some of them for joining the EU, some of them for joining NATO, some for joining the Euro, some of them for constitutional amendments.

You now say "Oh, *certainly* but what I meant is that from *now on* Euros will have no important vote."

Does that include the referendum on the reunification of Cyprus, quite likely to take place next month?

Just admit that you have no clue what you are talking about.

11A5S> Well, yes, *obviously*, but I never claimed that Greece's "founding fathers" were visions of perfection. My mention of slavery came in direct connection to Charles's reference. I quite freely admit that Greece's history and politics have all too often sucked big monkey balls.

Besides some days ago I had said that I'd mention American slavery once in a while, because I'm annoyed at the frequent mentions of WW2 to disparage the Germans.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 6:33:22 PM|| 2004-3-17 6:33:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Aris, old boy, don't kid yourself that a "referendum" on Cyprus will change anything...
Possession is 9/10 of the law and the truth of the matter is that the Islamist Turks already are in possession of 1/2 of Cyprus and aren't going anywhere.
The UN tried to "negotiate" with the Turks and got nowhere.
The Turkish dude wouldn't even show up for the meeting.
You Greekies lost Cyprus back in 1974--get used to it.

Posted by Jen 2004-3-17 8:17:01 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-17 8:17:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 First Cyprus, the the rest of Greece.

Posted by ed 2004-3-17 8:46:10 PM|| 2004-3-17 8:46:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 The Turkish Cypriots aren't Islamists. And we don't want them to go anywhere.

And it's primarily their loss, if the reunification doesn't work. They need the reunification more than the Greek side does.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 8:52:56 PM|| 2004-3-17 8:52:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 We are not a nation *yet*.

And you never will be.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-17 9:10:01 PM|| 2004-3-17 9:10:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 In Iraq, the recent repeated tragedies are bringing Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis closer together in nationhood. At this point they seem to be better at it than the EU crowd, but remember how everyone in Congress was singing on the steps of the Capital one day and then backstabbing within the next month. The key element to cohesion of divergent political interests and dissimilar ethnic groups may be repetition of tragic events. Personally, I hope that bickering continues among and within free nations - its healthy.

Aris, some ethnic jokes are a healthy way to relieve cross-cultural tension. A good portion of those type of jokes lose their humor potential over time. In the US, a whole lot of the Greek jokes were replaced by gags based on My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Did you happen to see that movie?

Posted by Super Hose 2004-3-17 9:49:51 PM|| 2004-3-17 9:49:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Rafael> I'm glad you can see hundreds and thousands of years into the future.

Super Hose> Yeah, I did -- and found it both amusing and quite accurate. Not to mention that I've heard it said that Greek people abroad indeed behave even more "Greekly" than Greek people here.

Though I didn't like the surname "Portokalos" itself. Though indeed sounding Greek, it also sounded vaguely *wrong* for reasons rather complicated to explain. "Portokalis" would have felt much more natural to me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-17 10:01:18 PM|| 2004-3-17 10:01:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Aris, forgive me for noting this, but the 5th Amendment did not forbid slavery, and was never read that way by our courts. It took the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments (1868) to deal with slavery:

13th Amendment: "Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

"Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

14th Amendment: "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

"Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

"Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

"Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

15th Amendment: "Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

"Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

Just a historical note.

Posted by Steve White 2004-3-17 10:05:30 PM|| 2004-3-17 10:05:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 No, they let slave-owners bully them around, which is why for a whole century the US didn't dare enforce its own constitution (the Fifth Amendment in particular, which made slavery unconstitutional).

The Constitutional Convention attempted to deal with slavery, but tabled it so as to prevent a fracturing of the nascent Union. It was dealt with 70 years later at a cost of some 620,000 dead.

It was the 23rd Amemdment that prohibited slavery, and that was not fully ratified until December 6, 1865. Seven months after the end of the Civil War.

Posted by Pappy 2004-3-17 10:09:14 PM|| 2004-3-17 10:09:14 PM|| Front Page Top

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